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Author Topic: Question for owners on here  (Read 6561 times)
photofinish
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2006, 07:00:16 PM »

Trainers are skilled professionals. but you usually pay professionals by tangible results. If you hire a plumber to fix a water leak and after he's finished the water is still leaking than he demands payment on his "accumulated Knowledge" well I would say how come you didn't fix the leak if you are so smart.

well I think you know what I am saying.

If a trainer is good, its not long before owners are knocking at the doors.

 clocker biggestal

     Clocker, I see your point, to a degree. I know the original analogy was mine, but it was a loose analogy. I doubt you will stand over the plumbers shoulder or call him on the phone and dictate to him HOW to fix your leak, or which fittings to use, etc. and then expect him to do it for cost of the fittings if your way didn't work Wink. Not all owners do this, but many do. People get emotional with their horses and not all treat it as a business (except on April 15 of course).

       A trainer is really only as good as their stock in the eyes of the world.  In my opinion we (trainers) can hurt a horse's chances if we don't keep him sound enough, fit enough or happy enough. But the only way we can "help" a horse is if he's lacking in one of those categories when we get him and we find and fix the problem. Other than that, they can only run as fast as the good Lord made them able to.Anything we do to "help" a horse in the way of supplements, etc. is truly only "supportive" therapy.  A very "soft science".

     To ward off a "firestorm" here from the super-trainers or said super-trainers owners, please let me say this is just my opinion and I don't mean to ruffle feathers on those who have bigger egos than I do. Egos are not necessarily bad things, ok?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 07:05:14 PM by photofinish » Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2006, 07:02:13 PM »

Race2win,

I am 95% sure I know who you are. Lets agree to contact the administrator to expose ourselves on line. We can then settle these disagreements with facts. Don't be afraid to complement your "great" trainer. You talk about owners paying their bills on time, what about the trainers? Did you ever see any of their credit reports? You will be surprised. Trainers want total control of your investment, and believe me, most are not good investment counselors. What are you waiting for?  Lets go public!!
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redbullet7878
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2006, 07:07:33 PM »

Hey, first names would be nice, but not to tell all my "secrets" HAHA, some of the first things I do is look over the general appearance and as well as the physical appearance of my horse. How did he come out of the race? Ankles? Knees? Etc.....  Is the horse under wieght or over weight?  Also teeth, feet as well as general attitude are all things that I look at.  After 72 hours I like to take blood.   And so on. How about you what are your techniques? What are the names of your horses currently running?
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ageecee
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2006, 07:13:52 PM »

Hey, first names would be nice, but not to tell all my "secrets" HAHA, some of the first things I do is look over the general appearance and as well as the physical appearance of my horse. How did he come out of the race? Ankles? Knees? Etc.....  Is the horse under wieght or over weight?  Also teeth, feet as well as general attitude are all things that I look at.  After 72 hours I like to take blood.   And so on. How about you what are your techniques? What are the names of your horses currently running?


Not in this particular order but this is what we do.


1-Check teeth

2-Worm

3-Start on ulcer medication

4-Check ankles and knees

5-Check and see if feet are bad(thrush)



allen
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redbullet7878
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2006, 07:15:40 PM »

Allen,

So basically we are on the same page. Good.
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mel4600
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« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2006, 07:18:34 PM »

Steve,

I tip my hat to you for posting your identity. Most would not do that.
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ageecee
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« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2006, 07:20:57 PM »

Allen,

So basically we are on the same page. Good.



Pretty much but im always looking for things to improve on. Thats why i was asking what are some of your secrets.

Do you take xrays when you claim a horse to see actually whats inside a knee or ankle?
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ageecee
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« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2006, 07:21:40 PM »

Steve,

I tip my hat to you for posting your identity. Most would not do that.

same here much respect to Steve..
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ageecee
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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2006, 07:25:03 PM »

Steve sent you a PM..
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ChitownSteve75
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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2006, 11:03:25 PM »

Race2Win, are you a joke? Without the OWNER the TRAINER better go buy thier OWN horses! WE (owners) are paying you for a service. Trainers work for the OWNER. The TRAINER is the coach, the HORSES are the players.  There are A lot of real nice trainers who are very professional and then there are others who get illegal kick backs from Vets and pump illegal drugs into horses or others who run "hurt" horses and then we watch em breakdown.  As far as your "3 points", I have followed all of those. I pay my bills, I have fun with trainers, I run horses where they belong, however, if they win-step them up. Some trainers want to claim one for $10K and then run for $5K next time out! Brilliant! LMAO!

STEVE
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ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
Jim C
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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2006, 01:04:26 AM »

Mel, I would not comment if a guy charging 35/day was cutting corners or not, depends on how many horses he has what help and how many people he has and if he is paying all above the table and making his tax payments or not. I have been with Anthony Granitz now for about 15 years now and as I said before I know the time work effort and personal sacrifice as far as time with his family he puts into taking care of the horses in his barn as well as those he has turned out. I currently have 2 broodmares both in foal one to Tiger Ridge and another to Saarland. I have one weanling by Broken Vow, two yearlings one by Stormy Atlantic and another by Sunday Break, I have 2 two year olds a filly by El Corredor and a gelding by Chief Seattle (Chief Thief) a 5 yr old Mr. C Note and a 4 yr old Christina's Courage. Plus a few horses in partnerships. We have done well pin hooking as well as with our partnerships. Tony is as honest as the day is long and for as long as I have known him has done what is right by the horse and I have seen him lose owners because he would not run them when or where they told him too because the horse either wasn't ready or didn't fit. Just like anyone else he has had his ups and downs but I believe in loyalty and have stuck in there with him as I know I can trust him and to me in many cases that is more important then results. But I have been happy with the results over these years anyway. For me what he charges is secondary to how the horses are cared for and how honest he is with me. To me in this game honesty is key. But there is no right or wrong here, thats one of the things that makes this game so much fun. Different styles and ways to do things but to reach the same objective. One guy looks at a horse in a sale and says no way we can take that horse and another sees a horse they have to have......only time will tell who is right. But that is racing!
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mel4600
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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2006, 04:00:11 AM »

Jim C,

I used the cutting corners as a figure of speech you once made in a prior post, nothing personal. You are so right that when you say "in this game honesty is key".I have heard nothing but good things about Anthony Granitz, and from the stock you listed I see you have a large investment. Staying with somebody for 15 years is something in itself. Our horses are all cheap claimers and we do it for the love of the game. We do not have deep pockets so we have to watch things carefully. You are also so right about the trust factor. I was brought in the race business with P.T. Adwell as my trainer and the first thing he told me was not to trust anyone in this business including me. I had so much respect for this man that is he were here today he would still be my trainer. If I owned Seattle SLew in his prime I guess I would not worry about the day rate, but reality keeps me on the side that says "no way I can have that horse". Having said that, there are good things I hear about a lot of other trainers who are affordable for an outfit like ours. Mike Reavis from all accounts does an outstanding job and he advertises his day rate at$42. To be honest with you, had I known that before I would have went to him in a heartbeat long ago. I just assumed he was a high dollar guy. Some of the other trainers I have come to admire is Larry Rivelli who is absolutely doing an outstanding job managing and placing his horses at different tracks. Mike Dini is another trainer who I admiring more and more and has his horses running tuff all year. Most of all these guys are affordable and give people a lot of bang for their buck.
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Jim C
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« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2006, 11:43:10 AM »

Mel,
I give you credit for what you have been able to accomplish without "deep pockets" trust me mine are not so deep either, with many of my horses I have sold percentages to new people to get them in the game and help cover costs as well. One thing my father in law told me when I first got into this game was that there is a good reason why "Horse Trader" has the connotations it has had for so many years! It pains me to hear some of the stories I have heard from people who tried to get into this game but got taken in some way to the cleaners. So many times this business can be its own worst enemy. But damn I do love it!
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sodgod
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2006, 02:03:04 PM »

Redbullet,

I was told that you worked for Eddie Cole at one time.  Is he still currently training and what happened to Royal Terrorizer?  Just a fan of local racing asking.

Thanks, Sod
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trotter1
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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2006, 03:10:43 PM »

Trainers are skilled professionals. but you usually pay professionals by tangible results. If you hire a plumber to fix a water leak and after he's finished the water is still leaking than he demands payment on his "accumulated Knowledge" well I would say how come you didn't fix the leak if you are so smart.

well I think you know what I am saying.

If a trainer is good, its not long before owners are knocking at the doors.

 clocker biggestal

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm from the harness side (ownership, etc) but have been wagering more on the
Thoroughbred side the last 6 months due to the size of the gimmick pools.

I don't think your analogy is quite on the money, however.   When you hire a trainer
to either teach a new horse or race a current one you are probably not hiring him
at that moment to "fix" something (like you would if you called a plumber for a leaking
pipe). 

A better analogy would be hiring a plumber to put in the plumbing in a new house you
were building with the intent of selling within a couple of years to profit.  After he
completes the plumbing (i.e--with all of his accumulated knowledge and experience)
he shouldn't be responsible if you try to sell your house and can't make a large profit
on it.  If he spent the time and did the work properly he should get paid--regardless of
what happens to your house (horse).
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Exbourne
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« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2006, 03:41:52 PM »

Jim C,

How does that Sunday Break look? I liked him for the 7500 But have yet to see any on the ground.
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mel4600
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« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2006, 04:22:04 PM »

Mel,
I give you credit for what you have been able to accomplish without "deep pockets" trust me mine are not so deep either, with many of my horses I have sold percentages to new people to get them in the game and help cover costs as well. One thing my father in law told me when I first got into this game was that there is a good reason why "Horse Trader" has the connotations it has had for so many years! It pains me to hear some of the stories I have heard from people who tried to get into this game but got taken in some way to the cleaners. So many times this business can be its own worst enemy. But damn I do love it!


Jim,

Stop by box D916 to say hello when one of our horses run. I would enjoy meeting you.
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redbullet7878
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« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2006, 04:50:16 PM »

Redbullet,

I was told that you worked for Eddie Cole at one time.  Is he still currently training and what happened to Royal Terrorizer?  Just a fan of local racing asking.

Thanks, Sod

Sod,

Yes I did work for Eddie for 5 years before going on my own.  He taught me a lot of what I know and am proud to have worked for him.  He was and still is a very good horsemen.  Eddie has officially retired and Royal Terrorizer was sold as a stud to a farm in PENN.  Haven't heard about the horses condition since.  Anymore questions just P>M. me.  Thanks

Steve
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redbullet7878
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« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2006, 04:56:34 PM »

Let me just say this to everyone,  I am one of the newer ones in this business but I have learned ALREADY, that everyone has different views about everyone.  Lets just stop the yelling/criticizing of everyone and learn from others mistakes.  Someone doesn't like it well to bad.  I don't agree with everyone on this forum but I think about why that think otherwise and try to learn from it.  So stop with the criticizing of others horses.  If it is there horse, let them run where they want,  if they are over their heads just hope that you can run against them then.  I think that its between the owner and trainer of where they want to run, trainer will let the owner know when they have seen enough.  Or at least I hope. Let just all win races, anyway that what I want.

Steve

PS. Hopefully nobody talks bad about me for this one. HA HA.  I'm in the game to make $$$$$$$, and because I love the horses.
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mel4600
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« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2006, 05:35:02 PM »

Redbullet, I will give you one piece of advice, when you say something don't be afraid to be accountable for it or don't say it. The problem is when owners talk to compare notes trainers think there is some kind on conspiracy going on. I think all trainers should post their rates and what they they do for their money. Win % is not the main thing its how you are obtaining that win % and the bottom line is the bottom line. Race2win said that they don't like "jumper owners" and that owners should have faith and encouragement for their trainers. I thought we did that when we hired you to train our horses it shows faith. Hell if we never had faith we would never hire a trainer. The most important factor is TAKE GREAT CARE OF MY HORSE. Race2win and turfman are chicken shit trainers that have no backbone or character. Don't ever become one of them. Now I will tell you that I had enough faith in you to train 4 (5 for a few weeks) of my horses. You will succeed if you maintain your good work ethic and don't be afraid to learn. We can all learn every day.
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Jim C
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2006, 01:42:27 AM »

Mel, thanks for the invite I will drop by for sure!

Exbourne, I like my Sunday Break colt a lot. He is out of a Forest Wildcat mare so I went the breed to the sire of the broodmare sire route. I will see if I can find a recent picture and post it for you to check out.
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g3tPWNed_24
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« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2006, 06:51:09 PM »

some trainers wonder why they dont make money when theyve been in the biz for years and are under 10% lifetime LOL!
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SWAY BACK
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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2006, 12:38:40 AM »

70% OF THE TRAINERS IN ILLINOIS DONT HAVE A CLUE THATS WHY CATALANO HAS A FIELD DAY WITH THESE AMATURES. THEN WHEN HE GOES TO GULFSTREAM OR FAIRGROUNDS THE REAL BOYS TEACH HIM A LESSON.
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glf
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« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2006, 08:05:26 AM »

Wayne is a great horseman no doubt about it. Give a few trainers here the same set up and see what gets done. Alot of trainers here have to work with the same stock and owners and don't get the priviledge that Wayne has to rotate stock in and out of the barn. I give alot of credit to the little guy. She/He works there buts off and sometimes don't get a shot. Anyone that gets up 7 days a week, Holidays and sometimes all night with a sick one deserves more credit than we want to give. I know I do it too. carrot
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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2006, 09:12:21 AM »

SEVERAL TRAINERS HAD THE SAME SET UP WITHOUT THE RESULTS HE HAD . FCC HAS USED SEVERAL IN THE PAST AND KEEPS COMING BACK TO THE CAT MAN. YOUR RIGHT THEY ALL GET UP 7 DAYS A WEEK AND 70% OF THEM ARE RIPPING YOU OFF 7 DAYS A WEEK. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME STAY OUT OF THE RACE GAME.
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