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Author Topic: Question for owners on here  (Read 6570 times)
photofinish
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« on: August 25, 2006, 10:00:53 PM »

Awhile back, on another thread, someone stated "trainers do not and should not make money except on percentages". Not sure why, but weeks later this is still bugging me, niggling the back of my mind...

   I will agree that most of us make very little on day rate. What I am curious about why you feel a trainer should only make a profit on his percentage? Do you not feel that trainers are skilled professionals? Their time and their years of accumulated knowledge are worth nothing unless the horses all run 1-2-3? They should not profit on the horse who does not make the races, but was in training with them for months? If the horse had a congenital defect that surfaced after the 4th work, the trainer's time, energy, and expertise in those 4 months should be worth nothing?

    I am not trying to come across as sarcastic or combative, I am curious if the majority of owners view their trainers this way. Many factors affect wins, some controlable and some luck. Plumbers, mechanics, lawyers,etc  all are compensated for their knowledge and time, but horse trainers' knowledge has little or no value, their time is worthless?

   I'm just curious and look forward to reading the opinions that show up about this.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 10:03:43 PM by photofinish » Report to moderator   Logged
Exbourne
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 11:09:32 PM »

Im Very happy with my trainer.

Works hard,The horses look like a million bucks and they get the best care.
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2006, 12:02:20 AM »

I want my trainer to make a profit on everything he does. he works hard has good help, barn is clean and the horses are VERY well taken care of too. And I am willing to pay for that, if he charges less that means he is cutting corners somewhere. He deserves to make money and make a good living. So I have no problem at all with what he charges or how he makes his money, as long as the horses are well cared for and he is honest with me. Hell with the money we spend on buying and breeding horses it seems silly to me to be looking for the cheapest rate for the person who is going to train and take care of that investment. Its like buying a Porsche and putting used Sears tires on it. But thats just me...I know others feel differently.
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mel4600
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2006, 08:07:27 AM »

No one that has owned horses that I know of have said that a trainer should not earn a commission on the horses performance. The difference of opinion came on the excessive day rates and 4th and 5th place commissions. I notice everyone saying they are happy with their trainers and do not list their names, I wonder why? If I was happy with my trainer I would love to pass it on. I currently use 4 trainers at 3 different tracks. By far and away my most successful trainer is Jeff Radosevich who has trained for me for 4 years. In that 4 year period I have only had two months that I did not turn a profit. He more than covers my losses with the other trainers. His day rate is $35 per day plus 10% of 1st, 2nd, & 3rd. Jim C will probably say he cuts corners and I will tell you that he makes one hell of a living with the horses performing well. Look at the National standings and let me know where your trainer stands. Exbourne says he is happy with his trainer, that he works hard and horses look like a million bucks. My question is how are they doing financially for you? Photofinish, I am always looking for a good trainer who can perform. Send me a private email with your name and day rates and we might be able to do business.
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David
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2006, 08:26:16 AM »

Not to chime in on something I really don't know that much about, but it seems to me this is a similar equation as in the business world of would you rather have your employees on straight commision or on a base salary plus incentives.

Both have thier advantages, the advantage of straight commision is that it surely ups the incentive, desire and need to close the sale, the disadavantage is that it is hard to get someone who is on straight commision to do other work that might be necessary for the good of the company but will probably not lead to a sale. The advantage of base salary plus is that it is able to develop more team work, get employess do work that is good for the company but not necessarily going to generate a sale (seeing bigger picture than thier commision check), disadvantage is that if you guarantee someone a base they might not go that extra mile to get a sale done. 

Which option is best isn't clear and often depends on the details of a particular company and I would venture to say the same would stand for which trainer compensation is right - it would depend on what type of racing venture you are in. If you are a breeder who is going to send unraced (and perhaps never will race) horses to a barn maybe your trainer should be getting compensated, if you are a fast lane claiming outfit maybe the action should be enough for the trainer.
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mel4600
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2006, 08:45:25 AM »

How many trainers will take this deal; Keep 80% of revenues and 20% to the owner after all other 3rd party expenses?
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pjcleve
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2006, 09:30:31 AM »

Photo,
    When I owned a few horses quite a few years ago, my deal with our trainer was an above average day rate plus 15% on win or place; 0 on any other finish. That worked well for all parties as it insured that the trainer would not be overly pressured to make his revenue solely on the horse's performance, thus leading to over-racing, yet at the same time gave him incentive to run only when we thought we were sitting on a solid effort. I'm know there are many different ways owner/trainer deals are structured. That's one that worked for us. We both made a profit in the 6 years that we raced in IL.

    Trainers are certainly entitled to be "salaried" for their expertise and effort, and incented for "superior" performance. That's the model of most successful businesses relationships.

Pete
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2006, 04:51:10 PM »

How many trainers will take this deal; Keep 80% of revenues and 20% to the owner after all other 3rd party expenses?

A trainer will only operate on a deal if he's hurting for stock, IMO.

Best,
EW
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ageecee
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2006, 05:39:47 PM »

A trainer will only operate on a deal if he's hurting for stock, IMO.

Best,
EW



So true...
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madgirl
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2006, 05:59:25 PM »

I'VE BEEN A HORSE OWNER FOR AT LEAST 21 YEARS.  I PAY THE DAY RATE MY TRAINER WANTS AND PAYS PERCENTAGE TO 5TH PLACE.  LIKE THEY SAY THE SPORT OF KINGS. SO THAT MEANS A RICH MAN GAME. 
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photofinish
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2006, 06:53:14 PM »

How many trainers will take this deal; Keep 80% of revenues and 20% to the owner after all other 3rd party expenses?

     I would say that depends on the horse. I have actually done that on 2 occassions and we all made. BUT they were horses I knew WELL, had had in training, and they were w/in 30 days of starting when I took the deals.
   
     Some owners, especially those who are (God Bless them) trying to operate a mid- large -size breeding operation in IL sometimes wind up w/ a colt or 2 they can't sell for a reasonable price. These folks work hard and carry so many farm expenses they can't afford the $45-$50/day to send one in. I have made deals for a reduced rate and larger percentage on a couple of these. I lost on 1 colt, broke about even on one, and made a little extra on one. I didn't consider myself "desperate" when I took any of these horses. I respected the horsemen I was dealing with and did my best to work with them. We both took some of the risk and reaped some of the rewards. You can't run an entire barn that way, but in a case-by-case situation it can sometimes work.
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Exbourne
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2006, 07:09:51 PM »

JR Smith JR did those 80/20 deals.

He is in Dubai now last I heard.
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mel4600
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2006, 07:18:52 PM »

I'VE BEEN A HORSE OWNER FOR AT LEAST 21 YEARS.  I PAY THE DAY RATE MY TRAINER WANTS AND PAYS PERCENTAGE TO 5TH PLACE.  LIKE THEY SAY THE SPORT OF KINGS. SO THAT MEANS A RICH MAN GAME. 


So where are all the Kings? You are what trainers call a "Dream Owner", just keep sending the checks and keep losing money.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2006, 08:43:17 PM »

madgirl,
You are every trainers dream. I can't believe you. Either you are one of the high charging trainers, or someone who is a wannabe rich owner that wants all of us to think that you don't care if you spend a lot of money for your operation.
Guys like Frank Calabrese is like that. He's a multi-millionaire (estimated around $75,000,000.00) that has fun in the game, doesn't care if he loses money, and only wants to be the leading owner at every meet he runs at. The truth is that in 2004 when he won all 3 Illinois owners meets - he also lost $1,300,000.00 that year in his racing operations. If you don't believe me..just ask about 10 different trainers tomorrow at Arlington. At least half of them will tell you that what I just said is true.
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Parker
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2006, 10:48:34 PM »

Training is a job like any other.  A salary is what I would consider necessary.  Only ones who don't make a salary are the jockeys.  Kind of hard to figure out how they could get one unless contracted by a specific stable.
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CLOCKERbiggestal
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2006, 09:15:02 AM »



   I will agree that most of us make very little on day rate. What I am curious about why you feel a trainer should only make a profit on his percentage? Do you not feel that trainers are skilled professionals? Their time and their years of accumulated knowledge are worth nothing unless the horses all run 1-2-3? They should not profit on the horse who does not make the races, but was in training with them for months? If the horse had a congenital defect that surfaced after the 4th work, the trainer's time, energy, and expertise in those 4 months should be worth nothing?


Trainers are skilled professionals. but you usually pay professionals by tangible results. If you hire a plumber to fix a water leak and after he's finished the water is still leaking than he demands payment on his "accumulated Knowledge" well I would say how come you didn't fix the leak if you are so smart.

well I think you know what I am saying.

If a trainer is good, its not long before owners are knocking at the doors.

 clocker biggestal
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ChitownSteve75
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2006, 09:47:31 AM »

Awhile back, on another thread, someone stated "trainers do not and should not make money except on percentages". Not sure why, but weeks later this is still bugging me, niggling the back of my mind...

   I will agree that most of us make very little on day rate. What I am curious about why you feel a trainer should only make a profit on his percentage? Do you not feel that trainers are skilled professionals? Their time and their years of accumulated knowledge are worth nothing unless the horses all run 1-2-3? They should not profit on the horse who does not make the races, but was in training with them for months? If the horse had a congenital defect that surfaced after the 4th work, the trainer's time, energy, and expertise in those 4 months should be worth nothing?

    I am not trying to come across as sarcastic or combative, I am curious if the majority of owners view their trainers this way. Many factors affect wins, some controlable and some luck. Plumbers, mechanics, lawyers,etc  all are compensated for their knowledge and time, but horse trainers' knowledge has little or no value, their time is worthless?

   I'm just curious and look forward to reading the opinions that show up about this.

 I work in SALES. That means I'm not a clock watcher and get paid by Commission ONLY. Trainers make thier big money on WINS or hitting the board (commissions). IMO.

Steve
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 09:57:46 AM by ChitownSteve75 » Report to moderator   Logged

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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2006, 02:18:00 PM »

I work in SALES. That means I'm not a clock watcher and get paid by Commission ONLY. Trainers make thier big money on WINS or hitting the board (commissions). IMO.

Steve

Personally, I'm more of a harness guy, so this opinion could be off....

However, I would say that -- except for a select few -- that the $$ comes from the training fees.  Look at what the mid-level trainers have earned in purses at AP.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2006, 05:08:47 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, training is a very hard business.  Anyone who bashes trainers who get up in the morning, EVERY MORNING, and takes care of their horses that usually takes all day long, should have a wake up all.  Thats all easy to say but I know several owners names on this subject/forum who are doing an awful lot of talking and don't even paying their bills on time.  What do you think of that? So before anyone starts talking shit about trainers, who in my opinion get NO CREDIT FROM OWNERS WHAT SO EVER, they better puts themselves in their shoes and know what it feels like.  I'm an owner and have horses with a trainer for that last 5 years.  He works HARD.  I would like to see more results but I'm still VERY HAPPY with what I'm seeing and how things are done.  I also have seen owners come and go and the biggest thing that I hate are JUMPER OWNERS.  They go from one trainer to the next.  Pretty soon there are not going to be any more trainers.  So before they start looking for other trainers to train for them, worrying about day rates and commission, try and give your trainer CONFINDENCE.  Those that nag, nag, nag, nag, nag and nag some more AREN"T even worth the trainers time.  So for all owners reading this, do these three things:
1-PAY YOUR BILLS AS SOON AS THE INVOICES COME IN
2-HAVE FAITH AND ENCOURAGE YOUR TRAINER (MAKE HIM HAPPY TO SEE YOU AT THE BARN AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT WHAT YOUR GOING TO *** AT NEXT), he/she makes money when you do.  Don't forget that.
3-SPOT YOUR HORSES WHERE THEY BELONG, DONT GET STUPID, LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU AND NOT WHAT YOU "MIGHT" HAVE LATER.  BE SMART, RUN WHERE YOU CAN MAKE MONEY. If someone wants to claim them, go ahead.  That gives you money to claim something else.  Its all part of the game.
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mel4600
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2006, 05:47:10 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, training is a very hard business.  Anyone who bashes trainers who get up in the morning, EVERY MORNING, and takes care of their horses that usually takes all day long, should have a wake up all.  Thats all easy to say but I know several owners names on this subject/forum who are doing an awful lot of talking and don't even paying their bills on time.  What do you think of that? So before anyone starts talking shit about trainers, who in my opinion get NO CREDIT FROM OWNERS WHAT SO EVER, they better puts themselves in their shoes and know what it feels like.  I'm an owner and have horses with a trainer for that last 5 years.  He works HARD.  I would like to see more results but I'm still VERY HAPPY with what I'm seeing and how things are done.  I also have seen owners come and go and the biggest thing that I hate are JUMPER OWNERS.  They go from one trainer to the next.  Pretty soon there are not going to be any more trainers.  So before they start looking for other trainers to train for them, worrying about day rates and commission, try and give your trainer CONFINDENCE.  Those that nag, nag, nag, nag, nag and nag some more AREN"T even worth the trainers time.  So for all owners reading this, do these three things:
1-PAY YOUR BILLS AS SOON AS THE INVOICES COME IN
2-HAVE FAITH AND ENCOURAGE YOUR TRAINER (MAKE HIM HAPPY TO SEE YOU AT THE BARN AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT WHAT YOUR GOING TO *** AT NEXT), he/she makes money when you do.  Don't forget that.
3-SPOT YOUR HORSES WHERE THEY BELONG, DONT GET STUPID, LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU AND NOT WHAT YOU "MIGHT" HAVE LATER.  BE SMART, RUN WHERE YOU CAN MAKE MONEY. If someone wants to claim them, go ahead.  That gives you money to claim something else.  Its all part of the game.

Waiting for you to email me so we can go public on the board. You did not leave an email contact, so email me.
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ageecee
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2006, 06:22:06 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, training is a very hard business.  Anyone who bashes trainers who get up in the morning, EVERY MORNING, and takes care of their horses that usually takes all day long, should have a wake up all.  Thats all easy to say but I know several owners names on this subject/forum who are doing an awful lot of talking and don't even paying their bills on time.  What do you think of that? So before anyone starts talking shit about trainers, who in my opinion get NO CREDIT FROM OWNERS WHAT SO EVER, they better puts themselves in their shoes and know what it feels like.  I'm an owner and have horses with a trainer for that last 5 years.  He works HARD.  I would like to see more results but I'm still VERY HAPPY with what I'm seeing and how things are done.  I also have seen owners come and go and the biggest thing that I hate are JUMPER OWNERS.  They go from one trainer to the next.  Pretty soon there are not going to be any more trainers.  So before they start looking for other trainers to train for them, worrying about day rates and commission, try and give your trainer CONFINDENCE.  Those that nag, nag, nag, nag, nag and nag some more AREN"T even worth the trainers time.  So for all owners reading this, do these three things:
1-PAY YOUR BILLS AS SOON AS THE INVOICES COME IN
2-HAVE FAITH AND ENCOURAGE YOUR TRAINER (MAKE HIM HAPPY TO SEE YOU AT THE BARN AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT WHAT YOUR GOING TO *** AT NEXT), he/she makes money when you do.  Don't forget that.
3-SPOT YOUR HORSES WHERE THEY BELONG, DONT GET STUPID, LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU AND NOT WHAT YOU "MIGHT" HAVE LATER.  BE SMART, RUN WHERE YOU CAN MAKE MONEY. If someone wants to claim them, go ahead.  That gives you money to claim something else.  Its all part of the game.


So true on #3
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redbullet7878
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2006, 06:34:33 PM »

Hey guys,  I am a trainer and also new to this but being able to talk online, please feel free to ask questions and I can answer them to my best knowledge
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ageecee
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2006, 06:44:23 PM »

Hey guys,  I am a trainer and also new to this but being able to talk online, please feel free to ask questions and I can answer them to my best knowledge


Whats your name and what track do you train at?
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2006, 06:47:48 PM »

Steve Cholity and I train at Arlington, and Hawthorne.  What is your name and are you a owner or trainer or neither?
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2006, 06:55:26 PM »

Steve Cholity and I train at Arlington, and Hawthorne.  What is your name and are you a owner or trainer or neither?

Owner and part time trainer down in Louisiana.

Me and my buddy are a claiming stable-When you claim a horse what are some of the things that you do in the first week that you have the horse as far as general maintenance?
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