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Author Topic: MARTY MUST STEP DOWN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 2841 times)
SUPERMAN
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« on: November 26, 2005, 05:08:26 PM »

      With Ruck in trouble again I can see alot of back door shady deals going on between the tracks and the IHHA President. Heck he owns most of the horses in Rucks barn so he would sell his soul if he had to. This could be another setback in the long line of bad Horsemans deals between the tracks and a possible SHADY IHHA PRESIDENT.


MARTY E. PLEASE STEP DOWN BEFORE YOUR FORCED INTO SELLING US OUT FOR ANOTHER YEAR.

THE TRACKS ARE LAUGHING THEIR ASS OFF ABOUT THIS AND NO THEY CAN GET THEIR WAY AGAIN.

MARTY PLEASE STEP DOWN BEFORE ITS TO LATE.
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sn
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2005, 05:15:56 PM »

Super, This is 100% correct!!! marty should RESIGHN IMMED.!!!!! it doesnt matter if this Ruck thing is Major or not, any deal that Marty makes with the Johnstons on the contract he will be accussed of wrong doing!!!
The horsemen Blew it big time when they didnt elect Walter Paisley as the new Pres. He would have been the perfect guy to Rep. the horsemen!!! he is not involved right now, he hates the Johnstons and knows all about Ill. racing.
As long as a guy is in place that has an interest with a trainer or horses racing they will try and get leverage any way they can!!!!
its a sad situation!!!
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2005, 05:54:27 PM »

I agree that if Rucker is in violation of some sort of rule no matter where it's at Marty Engel should step down as President immediately. Too many back room deals have been made in the past to get a contract signed. 
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fineline
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2005, 06:55:22 PM »

It would be best to have a attorney in that position and pay him to represent the horseman how about LEE?
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dt2
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2005, 07:30:33 PM »

Fineline


Are you kidding. There are more attorney's that take payoff's then any other occupation. The Nance's are correct, Butch was the go to guy IMO. If for no other reason, he doesn't have anything the johnsons can take from him. Never mind all the other attributes he has!
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icare
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2005, 08:00:52 PM »

to be on the ihha its the norm look at hansen nothing new ihha means you can be a cheat i guess
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2005, 09:16:50 PM »

What exactly does a Rucker positive have to do with Marty's presidency?

Someone could "possibly" be bought off no matter what the circumstances.  This is crazy.

Best,
EW
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Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Dan Nance
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2005, 09:41:02 PM »

What exactly does a Rucker positive have to do with Marty's presidency?

Someone could "possibly" be bought off no matter what the circumstances.  This is crazy.

Best,
EW

Marty being Ruckers top owner with a bunch of horses under Ruckers care could put into a situation that the Johnson's force him into accepting a contract that is not in the best interest of  the horsesman in exchange for letting Rucker off easy so that Marty can carry on business as usual.
 If Marty fights the Johnson's they can give him all kinds of grief because his trainer is in trouble.

 You have never been up against the gestapo and have no idea what kind of trouble they can make for you Edward. If they have something they can hold over you they will to get what they want. I still think there is more to Morgan leaving and resigning as President.   
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john
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2005, 10:07:55 PM »

just like michael jordan playing for the white sox. Dan brings up an interesting point.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2005, 10:10:38 PM »

just like michael jordan playing for the white sox. Dan brings up an interesting point.

John
           Is the meeting called off?
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Chitown Stan
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2005, 11:41:53 PM »

Sn and Dan, I agree with you guys WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!!. Engels resignation should be called for immediately!!! We need an honest horseman to be the pres...now lets see. We could have....no, maybe ummmm....no, not him either...lets see...ummm...come to think of it, I can't think of any honest horseman. Maybe an honest lawyer....wait, can't think of any of them either..I GOT AN IDEA...maybe an honest insurance salesman.....no, there certainly AIN'T any of them here...well, I guess were screwed!

Stan
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2005, 11:45:33 PM »

Sn and Dan, I agree with you guys WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!!. Engels resignation should be called for immediately!!! We need an honest horseman to be the pres...now lets see. We could have....no, maybe ummmm....no, not him either...lets see...ummm...come to think of it, I can't think of any honest horseman. Maybe an honest lawyer....wait, can't think of any of them either..I GOT AN IDEA...maybe an honest insurance salesman.....no, there certainly AIN'T any of them here...well, I guess were screwed!

Stan

Stan
         I think you're the man. Yes, you!! You're the guy who can fix Chicago harness racing. I know you can do it. Go get em big guy!!!!!
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Chitown Stan
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2005, 11:52:16 PM »

Dan, you couldn't pay me enough. I am doing just fine in the insu......I mean the junk business!
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Les Moore
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2005, 01:08:30 AM »

Stan you mean stooping business.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2005, 01:25:27 AM »

Didn't Morgan have a positive or two while he was IHHA president?
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race track phil
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2005, 02:53:46 AM »

                I told everyone paisley was the man for the job ! now you have to wonder what will happen behind those closed doors ?  chances are very good they will be playing lets make a deal ! well we'll just have to wait and see , but those of us that been around know it does'nt look good if marty has any larceny . his investment in horses has to make you wonder no matter what kind of deal they come up with ! but I knew this was going to happen eventually . cant have a president with as much interest as he has in the business . he will have to look out for himself first ! sorry situation !   RTP
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John Doe
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2005, 02:56:24 AM »

Didn't Morgan have a positive or two while he was IHHA president?

Paul:

I do not believe at any time he was President of the IHHA, did Tony ever have a positive. I think his wife Penny may have had one or two but Tony was not the listed trainer of record at that time. I don't blame Tony one bit either. Why would a top-notch catch driver ever list himself as trainer? It can only come back to haunt you, because if there are any issues or a suspension is handed down to the trainer, they would be unable to catch drive.

This was always a big problem for me because I often explained to the IRB and track owners that they are forcing and encouraging paper trainers by applying this stupid rule. If a trainer receives a suspension for any reason, that person should not be allowed to train horses for the specified amount of time, period. It should not have anything to do with driving, in my opinion. The infraction is applied to the trainer and not the driver. Training suspensions should be just that, and not related to driving whatsoever. Just my opinion and as always, open for debate.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)
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AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
njhorseman
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2005, 12:37:22 PM »

Paul:

I do not believe at any time he was President of the IHHA, did Tony ever have a positive. I think his wife Penny may have had one or two but Tony was not the listed trainer of record at that time. I don't blame Tony one bit either. Why would a top-notch catch driver ever list himself as trainer? It can only come back to haunt you, because if there are any issues or a suspension is handed down to the trainer, they would be unable to catch drive.

This was always a big problem for me because I often explained to the IRB and track owners that they are forcing and encouraging paper trainers by applying this stupid rule. If a trainer receives a suspension for any reason, that person should not be allowed to train horses for the specified amount of time, period. It should not have anything to do with driving, in my opinion. The infraction is applied to the trainer and not the driver. Training suspensions should be just that, and not related to driving whatsoever. Just my opinion and as always, open for debate.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)


Joe:
Whether Tony was the listed trainer or not, is completely irrelevant, in my opinion. They were in his stable, regardless of whether it was Tony or his wife listed on the program.

I thoroughly disagree with your opinion that positives should only suspend you as a  trainer, not as a driver.  in fact suspending the person's right to drive is a more efrective way of depriving him of his income from harness racing. The suspended person will still have his income as a trainer passed through the "beard" trainer, but driving commissions will be lost to the replacement drivers.
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dt2
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2005, 02:39:13 PM »

NJ


GREAT POINT

That has been the problem in Illinois as far back as I can remember! Deferent set of rules and penalties for who they like and dislike.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2005, 06:17:41 PM »

Paul:

I do not believe at any time he was President of the IHHA, did Tony ever have a positive. I think his wife Penny may have had one or two but Tony was not the listed trainer of record at that time. I don't blame Tony one bit either. Why would a top-notch catch driver ever list himself as trainer? It can only come back to haunt you, because if there are any issues or a suspension is handed down to the trainer, they would be unable to catch drive.

This was always a big problem for me because I often explained to the IRB and track owners that they are forcing and encouraging paper trainers by applying this stupid rule. If a trainer receives a suspension for any reason, that person should not be allowed to train horses for the specified amount of time, period. It should not have anything to do with driving, in my opinion. The infraction is applied to the trainer and not the driver. Training suspensions should be just that, and not related to driving whatsoever. Just my opinion and as always, open for debate.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)


Joe
          Remember when LaVern tried using that defense years ago when he got a positive? His lawyer argued that he should be able to catch drive and not train but it didn't fly with the stewards and the IRB.

          He did however dodge a bullet on the positive when the feed company came in and told the stewards that they put some kind of anti-biotic in the feed they mixed up at the mills. He was only fined $500 for the positive with no suspension.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 06:35:21 PM by Dan Nance » Report to moderator   Logged
John Doe
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2005, 07:10:57 PM »

Joe:
Whether Tony was the listed trainer or not, is completely irrelevant, in my opinion. They were in his stable, regardless of whether it was Tony or his wife listed on the program.

I thoroughly disagree with your opinion that positives should only suspend you as a  trainer, not as a driver.  in fact suspending the person's right to drive is a more efrective way of depriving him of his income from harness racing. The suspended person will still have his income as a trainer passed through the "beard" trainer, but driving commissions will be lost to the replacement drivers.
Paul:

     Again, we can agree to disagree. The main reason I feel about only suspending the training privileges is because when you suspend the driving privileges as well, it encourages the real trainer of record to use a scapegoat in the event of a positive or suspension. I think the end result is the fans get screwed once again for not being on the inside about who is really the trainer of the horse in question. I firmly believe there should be punishment for rule violators, no question about it, but it has to be enforced and applied to the specific area in which the violation occurred.

     I view like this; if a driver hits a pylon and is fined $25, would the trainer of the horse have to pay a $25 fine too? Hell no. We are mixing training and driving in with each other and it comes out a mess. If a training violation occurs, the trainer should receive his due punishment and not have any effect on his driving privileges. This is the only way of having top trainer/drivers list their name in the program for the fans to get a fair shake. Sure, some of us on the inside might be familiar with who is affiliated with whom, but the average fan does not. This becomes a very unfair wagering disadvantage for the average fan, in my opinion.

     Please do not think that I am advocating no punishment because that is not what this debate is about. I am only trying to clean up the sport and eliminate paper trainers altogether. This would allow fans to fully trust the programs listed trainer and not try to figure a jigsaw puzzle of who is working for whom on the backstretch. I say violators should have their training privileges suspended and that is all. Leave the driving privileges alone because they are two different licenses. After all, you have to pay a fee for each license so why should they be combined when a violation occurs?  As always, open for debate. I am off to meet John S. tonight for a good discussion about the problems facing Illinois and constructing a plan for Vegas Downs. Keep your fingers crossed and let’s see what happens. Good luck to you, and we'll chat later.


Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)

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AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
njhorseman
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2005, 08:57:25 PM »

Paul:

     Again, we can agree to disagree. The main reason I feel about only suspending the training privileges is because when you suspend the driving privileges as well, it encourages the real trainer of record to use a scapegoat in the event of a positive or suspension. I think the end result is the fans get screwed once again for not being on the inside about who is really the trainer of the horse in question. I firmly believe there should be punishment for rule violators, no question about it, but it has to be enforced and applied to the specific area in which the violation occurred.

     I view like this; if a driver hits a pylon and is fined $25, would the trainer of the horse have to pay a $25 fine too? Hell no. We are mixing training and driving in with each other and it comes out a mess. If a training violation occurs, the trainer should receive his due punishment and not have any effect on his driving privileges. This is the only way of having top trainer/drivers list their name in the program for the fans to get a fair shake. Sure, some of us on the inside might be familiar with who is affiliated with whom, but the average fan does not. This becomes a very unfair wagering disadvantage for the average fan, in my opinion.

     Please do not think that I am advocating no punishment because that is not what this debate is about. I am only trying to clean up the sport and eliminate paper trainers altogether. This would allow fans to fully trust the programs listed trainer and not try to figure a jigsaw puzzle of who is working for whom on the backstretch. I say violators should have their training privileges suspended and that is all. Leave the driving privileges alone because they are two different licenses. After all, you have to pay a fee for each license so why should they be combined when a violation occurs?  As always, open for debate. I am off to meet John S. tonight for a good discussion about the problems facing Illinois and constructing a plan for Vegas Downs. Keep your fingers crossed and let’s see what happens. Good luck to you, and we'll chat later.


Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)



Joe:
How does your idea for allowing suspended trainers to still drive prevent "beards" or "paper trainers" in any way?  And surely you can't equate a pylon violation with a drug positive.
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John Doe
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2005, 11:40:57 PM »

Joe:
How does your idea for allowing suspended trainers to still drive prevent "beards" or "paper trainers" in any way?  And surely you can't equate a pylon violation with a drug positive.



 Paul:

     Nothing is 100% fool proof but you can't tell me that a positive test and suspension for a training violation only, would not encourage big-time drivers that train horses to list their own name as the trainer of record? I am not naming names, but I have been told that by a number of Chicago’s top drivers that still want to train horses but will not because if something should happen on the training end of things, they would lose their driving privileges.

     I am not going to say that it would stop the paper trainers from happening but it would at the very least allow the drivers who want to train horses and list their name to do so. At least the fans would have some kind of idea whois training the horse instead of some John Doe they never heard of. I think it would help some fans feel that they were getting a better shake at the windows and at least given a fighting chance. The way I see things, it can only help. The catch-drivers would not be so afraid to list their names for fear of losing their catch drives. Get my drift? I think it would be a step in the right direction. Who knows, maybe not? This is just my opinion and as always, open for debate.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 12:26:37 AM by JDakuras » Report to moderator   Logged

AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
njhorseman
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2005, 09:16:08 AM »

Joe:
I get your drift, and I whole-heartedly disagree.  Cheesy
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