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Author Topic: You want to be a Professional Gambler????  (Read 2152 times)
Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« on: July 23, 2006, 05:21:15 PM »

I felt this is a extremely interesting topic.

I can write a book on this. 

Now some probing questions:

Do you have the will and desire to be a Professional Gambler.

How much money do you want to make  a year.  Be factual

Would you do this full time, part time, on weekends, weekdays.

Do you have another job while you pursue this new career?

Have you ever talked to your wife or significant other about this passion you have?

What education do you have to prepare for this new career?

How long do you want to pursue this career before you are viable and wanna be?

Do you have a support group?

Do you have any way to measure your success?

In a couple of days, I will give you my hot answers. 

Lets see how this thread plays out.


Kenneth J. Chadwick 

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micha goss
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 05:32:33 PM »

The way to measure success is to climb under your bed, take out that shoe box you have stashed under there, open it up. If there's lots of filthy green paper with dead presidents on it, you're a winning horseplayer. If that box is empty, you probably should find another way to support your family.

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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 06:40:38 PM »

Quote
Do you have the will and desire to be a Professional Gambler.

I'll start off by saying that I've used the Chicago, New Jersey, and California circuits for a large portion of my income since 10/2002, and as my sole income since 8/2005.  It's been an infinitely tougher path than I could've ever imagined, so I think I can shed some light on these questions.  I'm sure I'll draw flak, but I'll answer honestly.

Quote
How much money do you want to make  a year.  Be factual

Back in 2002, I was still an undergrad, so I was living VERY cheaply (basically needing party and food money).  My initial goal was to make $20k a year after taxes, which I figured to be around (roughly) $26k or $500 a week.  This goal has changed significantly in the past three and a half years.

Working from an average profit of $500 a week, I hoped that I could turn a profit of 20% after rebates.  At the time this seemed pretty easy, but after several years, I've found that 20% is an AWESOME return -- even after rebates.

So, anyway, I figured that I would need to handle about $2,500 a week (20% = $500), and since I figured I would play about 3-5 races a day four or five nights a week, I needed to be betting about $125-150 per race.  With that in mind, I put up a starting stake of $2,500, and went to it.

After some experience, I feel I made the following mistakes: 1. I started with FAR too small of a bankroll given my goal.  Looking back, there's a pretty good chance that I could've busted out, since I was betting anywhere from 5-10% of my bankroll at a given time.  2. 15% after rebates is DARN good.

Overall, I think it's important to examine your goal.  If you want to make six figures doing this, be prepared to handle about $800-1M a year, and find yourself a darn good rebate shop.  Additionally, to be quite frank, you'll benefit greatly from an offshore location of some sort.  It's pretty easy to get in your own way in harness racing.  It's possible to be successful without rebates and the ability to "push off" a bet, but those are some HUGE obstacles.

Quote
Would you do this full time, part time, on weekends, weekdays.

Initially I set out to do it part-time.  I've found that there's a minimum amount of work that needs to be done -- regardless of your income goals.  I really don't work any more now that I'm technically doing it "full-time."  I'd say that 20-30 a week AT A MINIMUM is necessary to form good opinions, and depending on how I handle information at a given time, I'll work upwards of 60-70 hours a week.

Quote
Do you have another job while you pursue this new career?

I worked while doing this for almost 3 years.  When I was working full time (after school), I literally had NO down time at all.  It's a TON of work.

Quote
Have you ever talked to your wife or significant other about this passion you have?

I'm not married, but if you plan to do this, be prepared to have little or no support from people outside of your "track friends."  Nearly every person I that I discuss it with scoffs at me, even though the analysis I do rivals (if not exceeds) that of any suit on Wall Street.  There's a definite stigma to overcome.  Nevertheless, success can shut people up.  Many of my college friends have some fairly elite jobs.  I pretty much out earned them all last year.  The people that made fun of me when I quit working now ask me how I do it.

Quote
What education do you have to prepare for this new career?

I never really needed additional education, given that I've been "handicapping" since I could read.  I've always been dissecting programs, as far back as I could remember.

It really depends on what "type" of a player you are...if you are a visual handicapper (based on looks, warmups, etc), you need to do all you can to train your eye.  I'm very numerical -- and in my case, you have to be proficient in numbers and the software that you need to juggle them.

Overall, it's important to make sure you have a game plan -- and like any other undertaking -- you have to learn the proper skills to execute that plan.

Quote
How long do you want to pursue this career before you are viable and wanna be?

Once I graduate whatever post-grad program I enter, I'll no longer do it on a full-time scale.  I KNOW that you can beat the races consistently -- but it's a TON of work, and there's little or no certainty in the future.  If harness racing dried up in Illinois, I'd have a useless database, and an immeasurable amount of work to catch up at another circuit.  As much as I enjoy harness racing, I can't deal with a future like that.

On this front -- pursuing handicapping and the like...I think it's very important to schedule breaks in your schedule.   99.99% of the population can't do this day in and day out.  I generally schedule myself a week off every 6-8 weeks.  It stinks to catch up on my numbers once I come back, but it keeps my mind fresh.  Everyone is different -- but I guess I'm saying that it's really, really easy to get burnt out.

Quote
Do you have a support group?

I really had NO support at all when I was an undergrad.  In the time I was back in Chicago (and started posting on here), I've been VERY fortunate to establish some good friends that I can discuss handicapping with, and after having these people to talk to -- I wouldn't suggest doing it any other way.  People are few and far between that REALLY take handicapping seriously, but if you find them, you will (for the most part) have an instant bond simply because you are a rarity.

Quote
Do you have any way to measure your success?

I have a database that tracks my wagers -- down to the point that I could tell you my win rate on exacta keys at Balmoral Park on a Tuesday with a 6/1 keyed on top of two horses.  It's crucial to know where your leaks are -- and get the information to fix them.

Hopefully this post will be considered a help.

Best,
EW
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LV_GaryD
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 07:30:38 PM »

Having lived in much of the country, I've settled in Las Vegas for the past 15 years. It's been my experience that the vast majority of professional gamblers are losers.

When I first came to Nevada, I was a semi-accomplished 21 card counter. I find that I can beat one game and one game only-single deck blackjack. Single deck blackjack is a complicated art form, and there are no casinos offering true single deck blackjack in Las Vegas any longer.

To qualify, you need the following rules in place: Stand on soft 17, re-splitting of aces, double on any two cards, double after splitting, surrender, and 3/2 payoffs for a natural blackjack. Even with these rules, you also look for a dealer that exposes his/her hole card. This allows a player to win every insurance bet and to make very unorthodox plays at times.

Even with the above rules, you obtain a less than 2% edge over the house and must have a fairly large betting spread (10-1). This will more often than not get you kicked out of all casinos with the above game. The last time such a game was in Las Vegas, I got kicked out of Four Queens Hotel for card counting, after being invited to play there by a shift manager.

Poker, you cannot beat any longer unless you have a $10,000+ poker bankroll, play tournaments, or play no limit games with mostly idiots. Anyone who tells you different is a liar, or has simply gotten lucky in a tournament or two. Even the biggest tournament players will seldom play ring games.

The greatest poker player of all time, Stu Ungar, died broke in a coke induced coma.

Sure, there are maybe 1000 people out there who make a good living playing poker, but many of them make their money writing, not playing. Many of the top pros are stake horses who play for a percentage of their wins. It's a lot easier to play with no chance of losing your own money. Enter me in 20 World Series of Poker events and I'll get lucky from time to time!

Sports bettors who are successful are often losing poker players and the few poker players who win in the long run are often losing sports bettors. Go visit the WSOP and you'll see many of the same fleas who spend countless hours in poker rooms and casinos trying to grind out a small living, one with no retirement, no health insurance, and little future except poor health.

The only possible way to win money gambling (for the vast majority of us) for most people is to bet horses...if you put in 60-80 hours each week studying races, films, forms, and programs. Of course, if you train horses and hardly ever bet, you have a much better shot at being a winner. Notable exceptions are listed in the USTA fines and suspensions list each week...the crooks, that is!

Professional gamboling? No way. It's a path down the road toward a wasted life! So much time and money are wasted pursuing losing money...and another sucker is born every minute!

If you want to gamble, just do it to have fun. Otherwise, you are in for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment!
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 09:24:04 PM »

Having lived in much of the country, I've settled in Las Vegas for the past 15 years. It's been my experience that the vast majority of professional gamblers are losers.

When I first came to Nevada, I was a semi-accomplished 21 card counter. I find that I can beat one game and one game only-single deck blackjack. Single deck blackjack is a complicated art form, and there are no casinos offering true single deck blackjack in Las Vegas any longer.

To qualify, you need the following rules in place: Stand on soft 17, re-splitting of aces, double on any two cards, double after splitting, surrender, and 3/2 payoffs for a natural blackjack. Even with these rules, you also look for a dealer that exposes his/her hole card. This allows a player to win every insurance bet and to make very unorthodox plays at times.

Even with the above rules, you obtain a less than 2% edge over the house and must have a fairly large betting spread (10-1). This will more often than not get you kicked out of all casinos with the above game. The last time such a game was in Las Vegas, I got kicked out of Four Queens Hotel for card counting, after being invited to play there by a shift manager.

Poker, you cannot beat any longer unless you have a $10,000+ poker bankroll, play tournaments, or play no limit games with mostly idiots. Anyone who tells you different is a liar, or has simply gotten lucky in a tournament or two. Even the biggest tournament players will seldom play ring games.

The greatest poker player of all time, Stu Ungar, died broke in a coke induced coma.

Sure, there are maybe 1000 people out there who make a good living playing poker, but many of them make their money writing, not playing. Many of the top pros are stake horses who play for a percentage of their wins. It's a lot easier to play with no chance of losing your own money. Enter me in 20 World Series of Poker events and I'll get lucky from time to time!

Sports bettors who are successful are often losing poker players and the few poker players who win in the long run are often losing sports bettors. Go visit the WSOP and you'll see many of the same fleas who spend countless hours in poker rooms and casinos trying to grind out a small living, one with no retirement, no health insurance, and little future except poor health.

The only possible way to win money gambling (for the vast majority of us) for most people is to bet horses...if you put in 60-80 hours each week studying races, films, forms, and programs. Of course, if you train horses and hardly ever bet, you have a much better shot at being a winner. Notable exceptions are listed in the USTA fines and suspensions list each week...the crooks, that is!

Professional gamboling? No way. It's a path down the road toward a wasted life! So much time and money are wasted pursuing losing money...and another sucker is born every minute!

If you want to gamble, just do it to have fun. Otherwise, you are in for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment!


This has to be one of the all time classic posts.

I want to thank you for being honest and forthright.

God bless you.

Kenneth J. Chadwick   
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davenchop
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 09:27:21 PM »

The only possible way to win money gambling (for the vast majority of us) for most people is to bet horses...if you put in 60-80 hours each week studying races, films, forms, and programs

ive seen this mentioned several times before by other players... from my experience in playing the horses over the last 25 years i think that the program only offers so much info and the replays the same.. spending countless hours going over and over the program isnt going to help a great deal

the way to beat horses ( and it isnt easy) is to watch the races every night and be patient for the right spots. most races are not bettable except for token plays for a little action.. the races you can make money on are few and far between.. stick with the top drivers and top trainers. for example anybody who follows balmoral knows pacitti is red hot.. he had thank me later in the ffa earlier this year. they claimed him back and last night he had the rail and imho was a standout pipe.. you have to hammer those plays and bet small just for shits and grins on most other races if you want to win in the long run


oh yeah, if you want to have a personal life then forget about gambling for profits.... not possible.!!!!
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AlongTheRail
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 10:03:23 PM »

.. spending countless hours going over and over the program isnt going to help a great deal

That's the truth, after looking at one race long enough, I start thinking every horse could win (in most cases).  You can definitely over analyze.  I always found good success on playing smart, watching for trainer changes, driver changes, claims, etc, and picking your spots and following up on losing horses bet before.  But I'd say the best bet is to keep a real job, getting a paycheck is a sure winner.
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VicD
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 08:47:24 AM »

This is an interesting and also funny topic...
Every guy I have met in the last 15 years who claims to be a professional gambler/horseplayer drives to the track in a car that I would have abandoned 10 years ago, if he even drove to the track....
One guy told me he put his kids through college from track winnings, yet I could see his toes through the holes in his shoes...
There are exactly 2 guys I know here in NJ that are pro players who have some success...
What most do not understand is that watching the videos and reading the charts are not what keeps these guys afloat... It helps, but it is not the answer...
The real answer is that like in most other financial endeavors, they pay and pay well for the information...
These guys have a very close business relationship with some of the bigger barns at M1 and have better information than the general public...
It helps to know when horse "x" saw the out of state vet for foot work, or that horse "y" actually trained for the upcoming race...
These are things that the average grandstand capper could never know, and will always be guessing at...
Add to all of this being friendly with a few top drivers, and you have a real shot at success, provided you also have good handicapping skills going in...
It can be done, just don't expect to go to your local bank and obtain a mortgage easily...
When you put "professional gambler" in the space that asks for an occupation, you may have to help the loan officer up from the floor as he laughs convulsively....
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trotter1
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 11:00:41 AM »

I'll start off by saying that I've used the Chicago, New Jersey, and California circuits for a large portion of my income since 10/2002, and as my sole income since 8/2005.  It's been an infinitely tougher path than I could've ever imagined, so I think I can shed some light on these questions.  I'm sure I'll draw flak, but I'll answer honestly.

Back in 2002, I was still an undergrad, so I was living VERY cheaply (basically needing party and food money).  My initial goal was to make $20k a year after taxes, which I figured to be around (roughly) $26k or $500 a week.  This goal has changed significantly in the past three and a half years.

Working from an average profit of $500 a week, I hoped that I could turn a profit of 20% after rebates.  At the time this seemed pretty easy, but after several years, I've found that 20% is an AWESOME return -- even after rebates.

So, anyway, I figured that I would need to handle about $2,500 a week (20% = $500), and since I figured I would play about 3-5 races a day four or five nights a week, I needed to be betting about $125-150 per race.  With that in mind, I put up a starting stake of $2,500, and went to it.

After some experience, I feel I made the following mistakes: 1. I started with FAR too small of a bankroll given my goal.  Looking back, there's a pretty good chance that I could've busted out, since I was betting anywhere from 5-10% of my bankroll at a given time.  2. 15% after rebates is DARN good.

Overall, I think it's important to examine your goal.  If you want to make six figures doing this, be prepared to handle about $800-1M a year, and find yourself a darn good rebate shop.  Additionally, to be quite frank, you'll benefit greatly from an offshore location of some sort.  It's pretty easy to get in your own way in harness racing.  It's possible to be successful without rebates and the ability to "push off" a bet, but those are some HUGE obstacles.

Initially I set out to do it part-time.  I've found that there's a minimum amount of work that needs to be done -- regardless of your income goals.  I really don't work any more now that I'm technically doing it "full-time."  I'd say that 20-30 a week AT A MINIMUM is necessary to form good opinions, and depending on how I handle information at a given time, I'll work upwards of 60-70 hours a week.

I worked while doing this for almost 3 years.  When I was working full time (after school), I literally had NO down time at all.  It's a TON of work.

I'm not married, but if you plan to do this, be prepared to have little or no support from people outside of your "track friends."  Nearly every person I that I discuss it with scoffs at me, even though the analysis I do rivals (if not exceeds) that of any suit on Wall Street.  There's a definite stigma to overcome.  Nevertheless, success can shut people up.  Many of my college friends have some fairly elite jobs.  I pretty much out earned them all last year.  The people that made fun of me when I quit working now ask me how I do it.

I never really needed additional education, given that I've been "handicapping" since I could read.  I've always been dissecting programs, as far back as I could remember.

It really depends on what "type" of a player you are...if you are a visual handicapper (based on looks, warmups, etc), you need to do all you can to train your eye.  I'm very numerical -- and in my case, you have to be proficient in numbers and the software that you need to juggle them.

Overall, it's important to make sure you have a game plan -- and like any other undertaking -- you have to learn the proper skills to execute that plan.

Once I graduate whatever post-grad program I enter, I'll no longer do it on a full-time scale.  I KNOW that you can beat the races consistently -- but it's a TON of work, and there's little or no certainty in the future.  If harness racing dried up in Illinois, I'd have a useless database, and an immeasurable amount of work to catch up at another circuit.  As much as I enjoy harness racing, I can't deal with a future like that.

On this front -- pursuing handicapping and the like...I think it's very important to schedule breaks in your schedule.   99.99% of the population can't do this day in and day out.  I generally schedule myself a week off every 6-8 weeks.  It stinks to catch up on my numbers once I come back, but it keeps my mind fresh.  Everyone is different -- but I guess I'm saying that it's really, really easy to get burnt out.

I really had NO support at all when I was an undergrad.  In the time I was back in Chicago (and started posting on here), I've been VERY fortunate to establish some good friends that I can discuss handicapping with, and after having these people to talk to -- I wouldn't suggest doing it any other way.  People are few and far between that REALLY take handicapping seriously, but if you find them, you will (for the most part) have an instant bond simply because you are a rarity.

I have a database that tracks my wagers -- down to the point that I could tell you my win rate on exacta keys at Balmoral Park on a Tuesday with a 6/1 keyed on top of two horses.  It's crucial to know where your leaks are -- and get the information to fix them.

Hopefully this post will be considered a help.

Best,
EW

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EW-
Thanks for your answer, I found it interesting.   When you are completing your taxes do you
state "Professional Gambler"?  This is a serious question.

Also, when you are filing, are you required to list only your "signers" for income?  If you have to
list all winning bets (even if not "signers"), how is this done since it could be 1000+ different
winning tickets?   Do you then net out all losing tickets?   Has the IRS ever audited you?

Thanks.
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2006, 11:42:05 AM »

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EW-
Thanks for your answer, I found it interesting.   When you are completing your taxes do you
state "Professional Gambler"?  This is a serious question.

Also, when you are filing, are you required to list only your "signers" for income?  If you have to
list all winning bets (even if not "signers"), how is this done since it could be 1000+ different
winning tickets?   Do you then net out all losing tickets?   Has the IRS ever audited you?

Thanks.


Dear Trotter:

I can help you on these questions.

You can be called a professional gambler.

You report your income on Schedule C, 1040.  That is your gross income.

Then you would list your operating costs, which includes your losing tickets.

This is contrary to specific instructions of reporting your gambling losses up to your gambling winnings on Schedule A, as an itemized deductions.

There are court cases supporting the professional gambler as a trade or business.  You must keep good to excellent records.  It always helps if you are profitable.  That will be one the tests.  One of the other test is that you have no other source of income.   

Hope this helps you out.


Kenneth J. Chadwick
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2006, 11:51:27 AM »

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EW-
Thanks for your answer, I found it interesting.   When you are completing your taxes do you
state "Professional Gambler"?  This is a serious question.

Also, when you are filing, are you required to list only your "signers" for income?  If you have to
list all winning bets (even if not "signers"), how is this done since it could be 1000+ different
winning tickets?   Do you then net out all losing tickets?   Has the IRS ever audited you?

Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words.  Between the P6 and year-end taxes, Uncle Sam was the bane of my existence last year.  I'd always done my own tax preparation, but towards the end of last year, I started to really understand why you have an accountant.

Last year was the first year I had to list myself as a "professional horseplayer" because my income was disproportionately in that direction.  This year will be the first full year I'll have an accountant, because last year was a bit of a mess.

I wound up having a friend help me, and ended up having a Schedule C.  Do to my cluelessness, I had to pay some penalties, because I didn't remit nearly enough taxes throughout the year.

I've never been audited, but I wouldn't be too concerned, as I keep excellent records.  I've reported all income, because I actually think it's fair for them to take their share of my income.  Needless to say, it was still pretty painful to write over that big check at the end of the year.

Have a good one.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 11:58:46 AM »

I once was called down to the I.R.S office..I had claimed over $200,000 in gambling loses against my winnings.....The agent wanted to see specific proof such as programs and losing tickets...At the time i was under indictment and was being charged by the same government for bookmaking......Well i brought over my idictment ,and copy of my criminal record with 18 arrest and 6 convictions that were all gambling related and threw a big box with over a milion dolars worth of losing tickets into his office........

Well sure enough i walked away smelling like a rose....
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 12:05:58 PM »

The one thing you have to worry about is those heel prints on those losing tickets.

Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 12:23:27 PM »

Heel prints? They were tickets from Yonkers!! The only people who could afford shoes were  the  prostitutes that frequent the grandstands...
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 12:47:01 PM »

Kenneth is totally correct. If they tickets have footprints, IRS throws them out.

One thing that really helps is getting a player's card. They keep dead accurate W/L statements. Also, if you bet horses, you can also deduct programs (both software and racing programs), computers, meals, transportation to distant tracks, hotels, etc.

Been audited three times, all resulting in no change to my filed returns. Do not try to screw the government, they will get you, but deduct all you legally can deduct!
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2006, 09:13:37 PM »

I felt this is a extremely interesting topic.

I can write a book on this. 

Now some probing questions:

Do you have the will and desire to be a Professional Gambler.

You have to be mentally tough.  This profession is full of pitfall and land mines.  You are dealing with many variables.  As an option, if you devote as much energy to another profession what is that payoff? This professional is not a socially accepted.  You may take some heat when you say you are professional gambler. As a sidebar, I have known people who trade the stock market, they have had their head handed to them.  They have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It has cost some of them the biggest price of all, their lives.

How much money do you want to make  a year.  Be factual
As a minimum you want to make a $1,000 a week or $52,000 a year. Now in my book this is not "big money."  Therefore if you make an average of 25% on the money you wager this is what you have to do.  Now 25% is excellent.  Ask any Wall Street money manager?    For you to make $ 1,000, a week, you have to average $ 4,000 through the mutual machine to make your $ 1,000 a week($ 4,000 * 25% =s $ 1,000).  Now if you bet 40 races a week that's $ 100 a race.  Do you have the b___s to put this kind of money on some driver.  Maybe you better check your heart rate out.

Would you do this full time, part time, on weekends, weekdays.
Understand the weekday cards are soft.  Maybe the opportunities exist only on Friday and Saturday.
How do you bet more than one track simultaneously.  It takes me an hour or more to handicap a card.  This is without any distractions.  You may have to do this from home.  The track has too many distractions.  If you are at home, you lose the sense of the horses at the track.  This is difficult.

Do you have another job while you pursue this new career?
You may need a safety net here. 

Have you ever talked to your wife or significant other about this passion you have?

Remember this is Friday and Saturday career.  If you have a wife and children you may take some flack here.  You can't end up in a divorce.  That is economical suicide.
If you have a girl friend, you may get dumped.  This is big decision.

What education do you have to prepare for this new career?
You should have a strong Math backround and be analytical.  Discipline in front of the computer is a must.

How long do you want to pursue this career before you are viable and wanna be?

You have to put a time limit on this career.  If its 6 months or three years.  If you haven't accomplish your goals within this time frame, get a new career.  As a side bar, I played professional baseball for certain amount of time, I called it quits at 20.  I knew I did not have the talent even though I had the heart and desire.  Too bad, so sad. 

Do you have a support group?

Who are your mentors.  Its wise to be surrounded by successful people. You will get depressed because at times you will not be successful.  Just ask any professional athlete.

Do you have any way to measure your success?
I strongly believe money will be your measuring stick.

In a couple of days, I will give you my hot answers. 

As promised and I keep my promises, these are my opinions.

Wish you well. 
I want to personally thank all the posters who responded to this thread.

Thanks for being open and honest with your views.

Lets see how this thread plays out.


Kenneth J. Chadwick 


« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 09:19:06 PM by Kenneth J. Chadwick » Report to moderator   Logged

It's a Wonderful Life, let's live every moment like its your last.
race track phil
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 12:23:08 AM »

                The one thing i will tell you about the IRS is if you get the wrong auditor you can take all the records and all the tickets and deductions and programs and wipe your ass with them ! I had everything and it meant nothing to them in the end they allowed me 1 dollar a year for 5 consecutive years as a deduction ! the end result was i owed them 1,000,000 dollars and they were going to charge me with fraud ! I then had to hire a lawyer who reduced the debt to 200,000 and beat the fraud issue ! naturally i never paid them a penny ! today with interest owed i probably owe them 2,000,000 this occured in the middle 80's . I hardly ever here from them now . so be very careful when dealing with the IRS they pretend they want to help you get things settled but in reality there out to screw you as much as they can ! BELIEVE ME ! They refused to believe that i could win such big amounts of money and lose the majority back like i did truthfully . CAREFUL AND MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A LAWYER FROM JUMP STREET !       

                                        geezer     RTP
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