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Author Topic: online gambling - now illegal, cept for dem horses  (Read 3900 times)
Sir Blockheadd
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« on: July 11, 2006, 03:35:55 PM »

The United States House of Representatives passed the Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act July 11 by a vote of 317-93, but defeated an amendment that would extended the proposed ban on Internet gambling to horse racing and state lotteries by apparently superseding existing federal law.
The legislation, which also modernizes the Wire Act of 1961, attempts to stymie Internet gambling by outlawing use of credit to make bets and mandating criminal penalties. Its primary target is offshore online casinos that take wagers from U.S. residents

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34360
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ChitownSteve75
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2006, 03:48:18 PM »

So, what the hell does this mean? I can't gamble on www.allstarsportsbook.com anymore?
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ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
big wally
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2006, 04:02:18 PM »

It means nothing until the senate passes it, president signs and the justice department enforces it.
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Round Table
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2006, 04:03:33 PM »

So, what the hell does this mean? I can't gamble on www.allstarsportsbook.com anymore?

Why don't you ask them? On the surface this looks like a good thing because millions of folks getting chumped playing rigged online lotteries and poker rooms.
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They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2006, 04:07:37 PM »

i think it means only interstate horse race gambling is allowed, like tvg, but then you have to be ina state that permits it.

in a lot of ways this is good, a whole generation of kids gambling in online poker rooms, its like stealing from kids, heck it is stealing from kids. poker is a game of chance, no matter how you market it, or how many undereducated unemployeed idiots you have saying it is not, thats exactly what it is. people, specially the young with Inet connections need to be protected from these predators.

and what gets me, is people think that its okay for the govenment to protect me by mandating i wear a seatbelt, but when it comes to protecting me from these gambling houses of theft, they feel the govenment has no place to protect. i feel its a good bill,
if you want to gamble, go to the casino in person, or better yet go to the track, cept AP unless your an overweight housewife with 4 kids , then go to AP to baby sit with the other over weight wifes.
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NYRA 792
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2006, 05:26:43 PM »

It's a joke of a bill and good luck trying to enforce it even if does pass the senate.
Better pass a law regarding cheeseburgers....those are bad for us too  Roll Eyes
This is what happens when the right wing freaks gain control of the house and senate.
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Jim C
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 12:04:33 AM »

It will be very easy to enforce as it targets the banks and credit card companies for paying any gambling site. Those records are very easy to obtain especially now with all the homeland security rules in place. This will also direct states to do the same for betting on horses on the net where it is not legel like right here in Illinois. Trust me no bank, credit card company or phone company wants to see the guys with gold badges sitting the their office waiting room to have a sit down with them. With the administration we now have they will be drooling to find one bank etc. to make an example out of too, just in time for the elections once again showing how they are all for family values! Dont kid yourself, if you are betting offshore right now and using a credit card you can bet the government already knows or has access to the records showing that you do so.
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David
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 12:40:41 AM »

Targeting the credit cards and banks would certainly be a blow to the off shores (not just horse racing but poker and sports and casinos), but I don't think it will be a crippling blow. Alot of credit cards stopped processing them a long time ago, you can already use phone cards (believe it or not) western union wire transfer, as well as some middleman like neteller to facilitate the process.

I have a neteller debit card, it works real welll, I can transfer funds from place to place and back to the card, add or withdraw from most atm's. They sent an email already stating they aren't affected by the legislation, but time will tell on that.

There are a ton of people playing on line, again I don't necessarily refer to horse racing - mainly poker, and a whole lot of those are literally grandmas and such, they love to sit around and play poker or whatever. It has always been illegal, the new law just clarifies it a bit, I still relate it to smoking pot, still illegal but not a big deal.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 12:43:52 AM »

smoking pot? I haven't done that for over 30 years..maybe we should all sit down in a powwow and a peace pipe and comtemplate the current situation..LMAO!!!
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Valuist
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 09:02:58 AM »

Isn't it great that we live in a country where there's no problems and no crime so that our Congressmen have nothing more to do than to tell us how to live our lives?  WTF is wrong with those Republicans in the House?  I thought Republicans wanted less government intervention.  Now they want to tell us THEIR guidelines how to live.  What a bunch of pathetic hypocrites.

And don't think horse racing is exempt.  If you choose to play w/out a rebate, fine.  But why deny the option to those who want it?  If the takeouts weren't so outrageous, people wouldn't have to go offshore.

And it IS a big deal if U.S. banks will not allow wire transfers or deposits from the Caribbean.

WTF is next?  We can't eat red meat?  Can't have sex?  Can't stay up past midnight?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 09:07:02 AM by Valuist » Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 09:10:09 AM »

This will not stop offshore wagering on horses. The big players use their phone and can easily by-pass the banking system to fund and collect their on their wagers. Under the World Trade Aagreement if internet wagering of horse racing is legal in the u.s it is legal off shore. They cant stop the rebates.
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Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 09:31:01 AM »

i agree with Jim, they already know who is using these systems, thats how they got the data to see the problem.
the law will pass and it should in regards to card games.
playing card games on line, who does that,?, don't you think for 1 minute that the machine is progrmmed to win,

 people, Jeez!

the government knows its a racket, the companies that run them know its a racket, they pass laws to stop people from being cheated and  still they line up to give thier money away, its amazing!
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Valuist
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 09:46:50 AM »

The card games is irrelevant to this thread.  Its about racing, and yes, people do wager on horses offshore.  Quite a few do because it is more rewarding than to bet them at the track/OTB.  Rather than see each winning wager get nicked with a surcharge.  All wagers, wins or losses, get rebated.  There would be no need for rebates if the takeouts weren't so absurd. 

I don't play cards online, but if I wanted to, who are you to say I shouldn't?  If people want to give their money away, its their business.  Its about options; having them or being denied. 
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Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 09:57:49 AM »

"I don't play cards online, but if I wanted to, who are you to say I shouldn't?  If people want to give their money away, its their business.  Its about options; having them or being denied."

I don't wear a seatbelt when i drive, but if I wanted to, who are you to say I shouldn't?  If people want to drive withour one, its their business.  Its about options; having them or being denied."

I don't want to give birth even though i am pregnant, if I wanted to have an abortion, who are you to say I shouldn't?  If women want to murder their unborn, its their business.  Its about options; having them or being denied."

as you can see sometimes the government needs to prevent people from doing what pleases them in an effort to help them. especially in the case of abortion, no way, no how, not in this lifetime or anyones life time is commiting the murder of the unborn acceptable. this fact alone has turned our society, beginning in the 1970's, from what was once a civilized society to something less than that.
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Valuist
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 10:03:49 AM »

I'm not sure how you managed to turn this into an abortion debate.  I'm not going to debate that stuff; and to compare it to offshore wagering is ridiculous.  Lets use a little common sense.
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edwarren
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2006, 10:04:19 AM »

Blockheadd, spot a con?
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Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2006, 10:27:29 AM »

all i am saying is that online gambling is a con,
as is the argument legalizing abortion, the biggest and deadliest con.
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Valuist
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2006, 10:35:35 AM »

There wouldn't be a need to wager offshore if the takeouts weren't obscene.  But they are.  The offshores are the only ones who care about the bettors and give them an alternative.  Track management is convinced people will bet no matter what the takeout; same with the politicians.  Well not everyone will accept that.
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Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 10:39:15 AM »

if i am not mistaken, in illinois currently the only legal form of betting is at the otb or at the windows, if you use pinnacle or something similar you are breaking the law. if online wagering of this type where legal here, TVg would operate, Tvg doesn't, i assume this type of online wagering although offered to you , is still illegal here.
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big wally
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 10:43:47 AM »

Yep, In Illinois wagering on YOUBET, Americatab is Illegal according to the Illinois Attorney General... but do you see it enforced?
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Sir Blockheadd
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 11:02:09 AM »

Yep, In Illinois wagering on YOUBET, Americatab is Illegal according to the Illinois Attorney General... but do you see it enforced?

just cause you havene't been audited by the IRs for 2004 yet, doesn't mean you wont be.

they have 3 years to go after you after you make your last bet, 7 years in the case of fraud, if i am not mistaken.

personnally i would like topick up the phone , rather than drive to the otb, ohhh how easy it would be,
but i tell you many bets i ahve passed because i was too lazy to drive, money i saved , lol...
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big wally
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 11:17:27 AM »

just cause you havene't been audited by the IRs for 2004 yet, doesn't mean you wont be.

they have 3 years to go after you after you make your last bet, 7 years in the case of fraud, if i am not mistaken.

personnally i would like topick up the phone , rather than drive to the otb, ohhh how easy it would be,
but i tell you many bets i ahve passed because i was too lazy to drive, money i saved , lol...

Dont get the IRS Correlation.. but in the case of fraud it depeds on the facts of the case... The state will not go after the indivdual bettors but the betting services such as YOUBET.. The states opinion has been on the books for at least five years... As far as I know the State has done nothing about it and IRS is alive and well and still auditing...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 11:24:09 AM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
David
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2006, 12:24:09 PM »

What would probably happen is much like the napster thing, they make a big point of making examples of some poor schmuck by selectivley prosecuting someone. As long as you aren't the poor schmuck they decide to make an example of, all should be well.
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edwarren
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2006, 12:35:58 PM »

deleted.
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big wally
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2006, 12:49:39 PM »

The funny thing about the Illinois Law.... Did not Hawthorne come to an agreement with You Bet about getting a larger fee from Illinois Residents that bet on-line... So, how could Hawthorne enter into a contract on Illinois Residents if the conduct of the bettor is illegal
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Jim C
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2006, 01:13:18 PM »

I would think the loop holes of using phone card and the phone lines in general will be covered in the Senate version of the bill and then written into the final bill.

What is strange to me is that those "big bettors" who insist on betting offshore and in effect doing an end around of racing are only killing the very product they are betting on. NONE of that money comes back into the system so whose greed is worse? The tracks and the take out they have or the "big bettors" who rape the very product that they are making money off of? The tracks provide a service and a product which they should be compensated for and yes make a profit as well. People who bet and win are making a profit on those winnings, so what they are doing is bypassing the system to make MORE of a profit without helping to fund the product they are profiting on. IMHO that is worse than the high takeout the tracks charge. Some rebate program I think will be worked out soon for the top customers who bet through the system but I dont see that happening until this law is passed. But the more the system gets abused by these whales, the greater the chance the game itself will continue to suffer and have to depend on slots and other forms of revenue streams. The tracks are not innocent in this situation, I remeber when some tracks had reduced take out and the NY tracks would not carry those tracks signal.
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Stat Man Steve
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2006, 02:17:58 PM »

NY-OTB wouldn't take the deduced take-out signals, since it 'cut' into their profit margins (i.e. could make their patrons bet only on tracks with higher takeouts).
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David
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2006, 08:30:22 PM »

Jim C, this has been debated before, but the vast majority of "whale" off shore money does hit the pools, it isn't "booked" by the off shores. If the tracks really wanted to cut them off they could, but obviously they don't want to. Some of the stuff that might be getting booked is the more retail trade if you will or the lower bettors who play through pinnalce and such places - but even then they do dump some action into the pools.

Typical "whale" off shore business model, typical 20 percent merged takeout, pay 6 percent (much higher than normal simo) for simo fees to somewhat legitimate sources (lewiston/indian casinos/god knows where else) return 10 percent in rebates, keep 4 percent gross profit.

If you actually think they book these guys action, you would have to believe that the "whales" that are betting with them aren't coming within 10 percent of break even (that is to cover thier rebate) that is a 1.80 ROI based on 2.00 wager, otherwise the supposed business model would be a complete drain within no time. if you really think that "whales" can't beat a 1.80 roi, your not being realistic. Granted they would be able to "cancel" some wagers out and not feed them into the tote, but with the higher end bettors not so much due to the typical pattern of thier betting.

The question would come, if these "whales" weren't getting this incentive would they be playing into these pools, my guess is no, others may guess otherwise.
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edwarren
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2006, 08:44:17 PM »

Hope you may know, this: how much of their dough is US money and how much from Europe/Asia?
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big wally
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2006, 09:00:58 PM »

Well said David and I Agree 100%. The tracks would like you to believe this is now the MAJOR problem of racing... Here in Illinois, I think the public  lost interest in the Sport... 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 01:22:51 PM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
David
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2006, 09:16:41 PM »

Hope you may know, this: how much of their dough is US money and how much from Europe/Asia?

The whales are almost exclusivley US Based, people want to bet what they are familar with, not sure if they answers your question or not.
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Jim C
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2006, 11:53:48 PM »

The point is while the tracks may get some of that money the purse account does not or if it does it is almost nothing. This is why it hurts racing so much and has the effect it does on the end product. The highest take out should be on all off track betting no matter where it is. The least amunt of take out should be on track bets. In all cases all the money should flow trough the system so that all involved get their fair share. The off shore freeloaders should either pay up or be cut off period. If those whales dont bet the horses anymore who cares? We arent getting much money from them anyway.
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edwarren
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2006, 05:07:37 AM »

I think most of it is booked. If it got layed off, there would be no profit.  Bookmaking is illegal in the US.

They keep records of all their activity. They know who wins and who loses, and how and when they cash. A smart statistician could make the determination. Could determine the true probability of success or failure. It's not complicated.
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David
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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2006, 07:52:20 AM »

I think most of it is booked. If it got layed off, there would be no profit.  Bookmaking is illegal in the US.

They keep records of all their activity. They know who wins and who loses, and how and when they cash. A smart statistician could make the determination. Could determine the true probability of success or failure. It's not complicated.

Ed, read my post, if they are booking all or most of it like you say you would have to have the opinion that the "whales" are not getting a 1.80 ROI,, that is they get less than 90 cents back for each dollar they wager, which I have a hard time believing.
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big wally
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2006, 08:45:05 AM »

Guys, READ THIS... The MONEY OF THE SO-CALLED WHALES DOES GO INTO THE POOLS.... My understanding thsess off-shore places pay double commision to the tracks  of normal simo fees.... LOOK THEY ARE GETTING 10% OR MORE BACK IN REBATES(not ON nyra RACES) THERE IS NO WAY THESE OFF SHORE PLACES COULD STAY IN BUSINESS IF THEY BOOKED...
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edwarren
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2006, 12:45:42 PM »

Wally, I don't get it. Can you show me like this?

Say $10,000 bet offshore. The book owes rebates. Then 2 scenarios:

1) Book $5000 - Lay-off $5000. How much profit assuming the book pays out $4000. What's his profit?

2). Lay-off the entire $10,000. What's his profit?

Ed.
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Valuist
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2006, 12:56:44 PM »

IRG definitely is pushing the money into the pools.
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edwarren
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2006, 01:07:19 PM »

If he lays off the entire amount, it's a wash, right? He makes zip AND charges no fee and must pay a rebate. So, he's GOT to book it, right?

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David
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2006, 01:11:29 PM »

Ed I think I went through this earlier in the thread, but to summarize the blended takout is 20 percent, he pays 6 percent for the signal from whomever (Lewistown Maine, Indians etc.) he gives 10 percent back to the bettors as a rebate, he is left with 4 percent gross profit.

If you think they book it, you would have to believe these "whales" are not picking enough winners to get an ROI of over 1.80 which any decent handicapper can surely get.
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David
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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2006, 01:14:14 PM »

Also, the one obvious point that would support that the "whale rebaters" are hitting the pools is the same people who like to complain that they aren't supporting racing are the same ones who are complaining that the whales late money is ruining the game. Sort of can't have both sides of that argument be right can they?
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edwarren
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2006, 01:21:18 PM »

Ed I think I went through this earlier in the thread, but to summarize the blended takout is 20 percent, he pays 6 percent for the signal from whomever (Lewistown Maine, Indians etc.) he gives 10 percent back to the bettors as a rebate, he is left with 4 percent gross profit.

If you think they book it, you would have to believe these "whales" are not picking enough winners to get an ROI of over 1.80 which any decent handicapper can surely get.

Yes, yes and they get laid-off. The rubes get booked.
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big wally
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2006, 01:22:08 PM »

Wally, I don't get it. Can you show me like this?

Say $10,000 bet offshore. The book owes rebates. Then 2 scenarios:

1) Book $5000 - Lay-off $5000. How much profit assuming the book pays out $4000. What's his profit?

2). Lay-off the entire $10,000. What's his profit?

Ed.

They have simo agreements with the tracks, either directly or in directly, i dont know. It just like betting Del Mar (assume 20% take) at AP (Del Mar would get around 3 to4%) and AP the rest say (16%) but if you bet off shore Del Mar may get 7-8% and the off shore entity around 12% of this 12% they give back 10% to the player and make around 2%. So for every dollar bet they may make 2%. They dont have cost of running a track and can make a profit with such a small margin... while the North American Tracks need a much bigger margin... The off shore entities have recruited many of the larger players(whales) across the states and canada to bet offshore... Now the tracks instead of gettig the whole pie get  just piece of pie... Hope this helps the percentages are made up.. The Simo agreements are kept secret
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edwarren
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2006, 01:31:47 PM »

Thanks.
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