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Author Topic: Is Shaking bad for horses?  (Read 3045 times)
edwardwilliam
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« on: October 26, 2005, 03:48:30 PM »

My experience is as a handicapper.  I don't know diddly about horse biology.

Is a high TCO2 level bad for the horse?  If yes, why?  If no, why not?

Really interested to hear on this one.

Also, it would be most excellent if people would refrain from calling people juicers in this thread...let's try to keep it clean -- haha.   Wink

Best,
EW
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burton
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 04:01:38 PM »

I'm not a vet or trainer.
Owned quite a few horses from 80 to mid 90's.
Most trainers I knew felt it was not good for a horse.
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EasyScore
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2005, 04:18:48 PM »

High TCO2 levels adversely effect the horse by raising the pH level of the horse's blood.  This results in metabolic alkalosis.  Too much sodium bicarbonate will actually kill the horse because his heart will stop.  Lower level actually are harmful to the kidneys.  Hope this helps without going into a lot of clinical physiology.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2005, 04:31:14 PM »

High TCO2 levels adversely effect the horse by raising the pH level of the horse's blood.  This results in metabolic alkalosis.  Too much sodium bicarbonate will actually kill the horse because his heart will stop.  Lower level actually are harmful to the kidneys.  Hope this helps without going into a lot of clinical physiology.

Thanks for the analysis. Now can you tell us what kinds of affects do humans suffer from all the drugs that the doctors want to put people on these days?

     And do you think that all the TV commercials that are on these days to try and sell people more drugs that have a bad affect on their bodies should be banned?

     Come on give me a break already with the baking soda hurting a horse. What about all the drugs that the Vets give the horses between starts, I suppose they don't harm anything in the horse do they? 
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sn
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2005, 04:34:20 PM »

Can anyone post on here what Lance Armstrong's TCO2 level was after winning the tour de france???
you would be surprised!!!
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EasyScore
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2005, 04:39:28 PM »

Mr. Nance  How about you drink a quart of sodium bicarbonate and tell us what it does to you. If the implications of your post is that sodium bicarbonate is not harmful to man or beast, then you are wrong.   As far as commenting on the drugs people take for various reasons, there are side effects with all drugs.  That doesn't extrapolate to all drugs are bad.   
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2005, 04:51:05 PM »

Mr. Nance  How about you drink a quart of sodium bicarbonate and tell us what it does to you. If the implications of your post is that sodium bicarbonate is not harmful to man or beast, then you are wrong.   As far as commenting on the drugs people take for various reasons, there are side effects with all drugs.  That doesn't extrapolate to all drugs are bad.   

The only horses I know of that were done in by baking soda were the ones where the tube went into the lungs instead of the stomach.

      I think Big Tom is still alive and kicking after all the shakes he was given and so are the many others that were baked and shaked by the masters of the game. If you overload anyone with anything you could have ill affects. But, I don't think that if you don't overdue the soda it will hurt the horse. After all if it did then we would have no horses racing or standing stud or poping out babies because in the last 18 years most of the horses have been shaked and baked by the best of them. Why do you think the horse are going faster these days?...... it's because they are not tying up on the end of a mile like they would do before the shake was discovered.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2005, 04:52:38 PM »

My experience is as a handicapper.  I don't know diddly about horse biology.

Is a high TCO2 level bad for the horse?  If yes, why?  If no, why not?

Really interested to hear on this one.

Also, it would be most excellent if people would refrain from calling people juicers in this thread...let's try to keep it clean -- haha.   Wink

Best,
EW

EW:
I believe that we should allow administration of baking soda or a similar agent on race day by the vet under controlled conditions, just as we allow Lasix. Horses getting baking soda could then be identified on the program, as we do with Lasix. There would be fewer form reversals, and by allowing only a controlled amount administered by the vet, we would virtually eliminate problems associated with administration of too much baking soda, as well as assuring that some jerk in a real hurry to tube his horse won't accidentally get it into the lungs and drown the poor horse.

In order to control this program, the state would have to substantially lower the allowable TCO2 level in horses that are not registered for the legalized baking soda administration. The current TCO2 allowance is a joke.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2005, 04:53:04 PM »

The only horses I know of that were done in by baking soda were the ones where the tube went into the lungs instead of the stomach.

      I think Big Tom is still alive and kicking after all the shakes he was given and so are the many others that were baked and shaked by the masters of the game. If you overload anyone with anything you could have ill affects. But, I don't think that if you don't overdue the soda it will hurt the horse. After all if it did then we would have no horses racing or standing stud or poping out babies because in the last 18 years most of the horses have been shaked and baked by the best of them. Why do you think the horse are going faster these days?...... it's because they are not tying up on the end of a mile like they would do before the shake was discovered.


You touched on it in another post...

Do you think it would level the playing field if Soda was allowed?  I mean -- they either need to develop some sort of test that can catch them before they hit the track (if this is even possible, I'm not sure), or they need to consider making it okay -- otherwise, everything is just uncertain and shady.

Best,
EW
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2005, 04:55:48 PM »

EW:
I believe that we should allow administration of baking soda or a similar agent on race day by the vet under controlled conditions, just as we allow Lasix. Horses getting baking soda could then be identified on the program, as we do with Lasix. There would be fewer form reversals, and by allowing only a controlled amount administered by the vet, we would virtually eliminate problems associated with administration of too much baking soda, as well as assuring that some jerk in a real hurry to tube his horse won't accidentally get it into the lungs and drown the poor horse.

In order to control this program, the state would have to substantially lower the allowable TCO2 level in horses that are not registered for the legalized baking soda administration. The current TCO2 allowance is a joke.

Paul,

What are the best places to learn about these topics?  For example, why is the current allowance a joke?  Or, how do TCO2 levels change over time in an idle horse?  After a race?

Are there actually studies done on these things?

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2005, 04:56:41 PM »

The only horses I know of that were done in by baking soda were the ones where the tube went into the lungs instead of the stomach.

      I think Big Tom is still alive and kicking after all the shakes he was given and so are the many others that were baked and shaked by the masters of the game. If you overload anyone with anything you could have ill affects. But, I don't think that if you don't overdue the soda it will hurt the horse. After all if it did then we would have no horses racing or standing stud or poping out babies because in the last 18 years most of the horses have been shaked and baked by the best of them. Why do you think the horse are going faster these days?...... it's because they are not tying up on the end of a mile like they would do before the shake was discovered.


Dan:
There was a case in Delaware earlier this year where a horse almost died from too much baking soda, but other than that very rare incident, I haven't heard of any other serious problems, and I agree with what you're saying.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2005, 04:59:29 PM »

Thanks Paul.

 Please answer my question in the other topic about getting together.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2005, 05:03:42 PM »

Paul,

What are the best places to learn about these topics?  For example, why is the current allowance a joke?  Or, how do TCO2 levels change over time in an idle horse?  After a race?

Are there actually studies done on these things?

Best,
EW

EW:
I saw some studies when I was in judge's school. The current level is a joke because it's way too high, allowing you to "shake" most horses and get away with it. The states adopted the current level because they were uncertain about the technology and were concerned about losing court challenges.
I know I came up with a pretty complete study done in Australia by doing a Google search. I thought I might have published the link here, but it could have been on Trackchampion.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2005, 05:18:17 PM »

EW:
I saw some studies when I was in judge's school. The current level is a joke because it's way too high, allowing you to "shake" most horses and get away with it. The states adopted the current level because they were uncertain about the technology and were concerned about losing court challenges.
I know I came up with a pretty complete study done in Australia by doing a Google search. I thought I might have published the link here, but it could have been on Trackchampion.

Thanks Paul -- I'll have to look into it.  Maybe if I search the journals I can find some articles about it.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 05:24:54 PM »

ATTENTION : 80% of all Balmoral trainers "shake" right now.  As NJ correctly said, the threshhold levels are too high to avoid possible errors derived from a horse having a naturally high TC O2 level that is "clean".  The problem is the horse will not ingest something he doesn't "like" and horses don't care for baking soda- hence the "tubing".  I'm sure NJ can also mention this method having an absorption advantage as well.  Too many "amateurs" accidentally injure horses when inserting the tube in the wrong fashion.  A couple of horses died in their stalls in the last few months due to this error.  That's why the action should be placed in a vet's hand, along with Lasix.  NJ and Dan bring up a good point.  TC 
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2005, 05:52:35 PM »

T.C.
Where do you come up with these numbers?
80%?

Nance,
Why is it okay to talk about Big Tom but not Holdeman?
C'mon?
Let's be fair.
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2005, 06:17:29 PM »

T.C.
Where do you come up with these numbers?
80%?

Nance,
Why is it okay to talk about Big Tom but not Holdeman?
C'mon?
Let's be fair.
If you can handle the truth, I'd suggest a p.m. for the answer to your query.  Of course, you must reveal your true identity to the forum 1st, so I guess I won't hold my breath for that p.m.  TC
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EasyScore
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2005, 06:20:09 PM »

The absorbtion rate would be the same, whether ingested on tubed, the sodium bicarbonate goes directly to the stomach, unless of course you miss and inject into the lungs.   
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2005, 06:26:46 PM »

The absorbtion rate would be the same, whether ingested on tubed, the sodium bicarbonate goes directly to the stomach, unless of course you miss and inject into the lungs.   
T.Y. easyscore, and as I stated, horses won't ingest bicarbonate on their own, so tubing is the method of induction.  TC
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LV_GaryD
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2006, 11:32:46 PM »

We fed baking soda to horses with chronic tying up problems 30 years ago, mixed with their sweet feed. They definitely will injest it if it is fed properly. It worked well and there were no horses dying. Of course, nor was there milkshaking back then.

In an unrelated item, most smaller tracks' $3000 or$4000 claimers would most likely be $8000 or $10,000 claimers, what ever is bottom, in Chicago. Bottom is bottom wherever you race.
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fineline
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2006, 07:19:32 AM »

The black box they use in Calif can check for it before the race .
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 08:35:36 AM »

The black box they use in Calif can check for it before the race .


Yes but Rick Plano is in charge of that and turns it off when he is gambling. LoL!!!!
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bigwrench
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2006, 08:54:52 AM »

jUST HAMMER DOWN A CAN OF MT DEW, AND ITLL HAVE THE SAME AFFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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if its got Tits or Tires you will have problems!
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2006, 09:14:52 AM »

The only horses I know of that were done in by baking soda were the ones where the tube went into the lungs instead of the stomach.

      I think Big Tom is still alive and kicking after all the shakes he was given and so are the many others that were baked and shaked by the masters of the game. If you overload anyone with anything you could have ill affects. But, I don't think that if you don't overdue the soda it will hurt the horse. After all if it did then we would have no horses racing or standing stud or poping out babies because in the last 18 years most of the horses have been shaked and baked by the best of them. Why do you think the horse are going faster these days?...... it's because they are not tying up on the end of a mile like they would do before the shake was discovered.

also why big tom cant throw a good horse for shit
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off stride
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2006, 09:38:59 AM »

my experience with shakin horses is a good one, once while doing my grocery shopping at my local store i noticed a local horseman (bev heywood) walking to the registers carrying nothing but 5 or 6 boxes of arm and hammer, i opened my daily copy of the detroit free press to check the windsor entries for that day, saw what bev had in, and made a bee line for raceway to bet those, caught a 16 dollar mutual on one and a place ticket on the other, this was about 10 years ago .. in my area rodney connor was the best at tubing horses with baking soda and has the suspension time to prove it.. up in detroit the best juice beonged to clayton farout jr, you would have to run his horses into the wall to stop them, fortunately , he is out of the game and rodney has toned it down quite a bit
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2006, 10:21:55 AM »

Your shake and bake and steroids in american's past time all came about from people who are corrupt morally and dont give a damn about the sport and industry there involved in.

They see no wrong in what they are doing and look at it as a way to compete.  In other words they lack the physical skills. Or they just cant train a horse for shit.

So they look for an equalizer.  Now for some people on this site who are acting like angels. Tell me when was the last time someone came up to you and said this horse is good tonight. And instead of reporting it to someone to clean up the industry.

You ran to the window faster than the wind. No one out there has the guts to come forward because if they did they'll be found witkh a bullet in there head.

This industry which we all love is saturated in corruption.  Nothing more than a bunch of crooks trying to get the edge on a bunch of crooks.  So the next time we get one of are self righteous ***hole like Joe D or EW or TC coming across as the saviour of the sport.

Just tell to kiss your ass because there right in the middle of it all .  AMEN  Angry

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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2006, 11:19:30 AM »

The only horses I know of that were done in by baking soda were the ones where the tube went into the lungs instead of the stomach.

      I think Big Tom is still alive and kicking after all the shakes he was given and so are the many others that were baked and shaked by the masters of the game. If you overload anyone with anything you could have ill affects. But, I don't think that if you don't overdue the soda it will hurt the horse. After all if it did then we would have no horses racing or standing stud or poping out babies because in the last 18 years most of the horses have been shaked and baked by the best of them. Why do you think the horse are going faster these days?...... it's because they are not tying up on the end of a mile like they would do before the shake was discovered.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not coincidently, Big Tom has been a complete BUST OUT as a sire in Illinois.  That $1,000,000+ he
earned during his career was NOT based on talent but rather chemical engineering.

The TRUE talent of this sire has indeed passed to his offspring.  It would not surprise me to see his
Stud fee dropped to $1000 or to have a free breeding for Big Tom included with any Happy Meal purchase
at the McDonalds in Crete IL.
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Petro
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2006, 11:24:01 AM »

A FREE HAPPY MEAL OR A FREE DANCE AT CLUB 390 OR A PRIVATE DANCE AT RYAN'S BASEMENT ON HIS STRIPPER POLE!!!!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2006, 11:25:09 AM »

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not coincidently, Big Tom has been a complete BUST OUT as a sire in Illinois.  That $1,000,000+ he
earned during his career was NOT based on talent but rather chemical engineering.

The TRUE talent of this sire has indeed passed to his offspring.  It would not surprise me to see his
Stud fee dropped to $1000 or to have a free breeding for Big Tom included with any Happy Meal purchase
at the McDonalds in Crete IL.

Am I the only one that thinks his minimal success as a sire could be tied to his smallish size and unimpressive confirmation?

Just thinking aloud...

Best,
EW
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2006, 11:32:08 AM »

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not coincidently, Big Tom has been a complete BUST OUT as a sire in Illinois.  That $1,000,000+ he
earned during his career was NOT based on talent but rather chemical engineering.

The TRUE talent of this sire has indeed passed to his offspring.  It would not surprise me to see his
Stud fee dropped to $1000 or to have a free breeding for Big Tom included with any Happy Meal purchase
at the McDonalds in Crete IL.

It's just about all over for Joe (the knife) after he lost that lawsuit. The ride was wild while it lasted but then the sky came crashing down. 
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John Doe
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2006, 11:33:44 AM »

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not coincidently, Big Tom has been a complete BUST OUT as a sire in Illinois.  That $1,000,000+ he
earned during his career was NOT based on talent but rather chemical engineering.

The TRUE talent of this sire has indeed passed to his offspring.  It would not surprise me to see his
Stud fee dropped to $1000 or to have a free breeding for Big Tom included with any Happy Meal purchase
at the McDonalds in Crete IL.

Trotter1:

     Absolutely hilarious post. I'm in tears going into my next class.  Have a great day.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel for Life)
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AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
njhorseman
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2006, 11:54:03 AM »

Am I the only one that thinks his minimal success as a sire could be tied to his smallish size and unimpressive confirmation?

Just thinking aloud...

Best,
EW

Yeah, EW, but have you thought about why he was such a successful  racehorse given those factors?  Grin
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trotter1
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2006, 02:58:52 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks his minimal success as a sire could be tied to his smallish size and unimpressive confirmation?

Just thinking aloud...

Best,
EW

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely.   Barry Bonds would not have hit 700+ home runs without chemical engineering
involved either.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2006, 03:59:44 PM »

Yeah, EW, but have you thought about why he was such a successful  racehorse given those factors?  Grin

There's been many great racehorses in the past that weren't supreme specimens of the breed -- very few have made good sires, however.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2006, 04:44:04 PM »

There's been many great racehorses in the past that weren't supreme specimens of the breed -- very few have made good sires, however.

Best,
EW
That's why some owners make the (boneheaded) move to overpay for a nice looking (ex.) Western Hanover that isn't worth anywhere near $125,000, because they think that this one or that one stands as nicely as his sire.  Picking a plum from the sales ring is harder than it looks...just ask Robin.   trotter  TC
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2006, 04:59:26 PM »

It's just about all over for Joe (the knife) after he lost that lawsuit. The ride was wild while it lasted but then the sky came crashing down. 


From Big Tom to BUSTED-OUT John
and from Million Dollar Bye to Million Dollar Bust (OVERNIGHT)

What goes around comes around!!!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2006, 05:06:24 PM »

That's why some owners make the (boneheaded) move to overpay for a nice looking (ex.) Western Hanover that isn't worth anywhere near $125,000, because they think that this one or that one stands as nicely as his sire.  Picking a plum from the sales ring is harder than it looks...just ask Robin.   trotter  TC

That's one part of the business that I have no interest in even trying to figure out.  Why?  The way I see it -- no one has yet!

Best,
Ew
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2006, 05:21:18 PM »

That's one part of the business that I have no interest in even trying to figure out.  Why?  The way I see it -- no one has yet!

Best,
Ew
I agree that it's tough - though not impossible.  Several people have made excellent livings from the sales game and some buyers have done quite well.  I agree that it's very tough, but IMO, there's nothing like a private sale where you can vet the horse out, have your top "advisor" (trainer, scoper, etc.) sit behind them at a farm track and engage in more exclusive bidding and offering.  I've been to Harrisburg a few times ( my godmother lives there) for the sales, and I've seen a ton of cash burned.   trotter  TC
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njhorseman
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2006, 08:45:01 PM »

That's why some owners make the (boneheaded) move to overpay for a nice looking (ex.) Western Hanover that isn't worth anywhere near $125,000, because they think that this one or that one stands as nicely as his sire.  Picking a plum from the sales ring is harder than it looks...just ask Robin.   trotter  TC

It's a crap shoot, and the highest price horses are often complete zeros on the racetrack, while mid range horses ($25,000-50,000) often do quite well.
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emp
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2006, 08:54:38 PM »

It's the DD and C (we're not talking cups here boyz).....

Demeanor,
Disposition
&
Confirmation

Price is just a #
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