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Author Topic: Illinois 2014 dates  (Read 913 times)
honest & balanced terry
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« on: August 01, 2013, 01:47:25 AM »

Same old  same old. AP wants the lion's share of the winter months dark money and to extend Spring and Fall dates into time that's traditionally Hawthorne. Presumably for the purpose of greater group sales. Hawthorne wants all winter, to run in February, and get the Kentucky Derby.

http://www.barntowire.com/2013/IRBnotes130731.html

Great Karnak predicts the IRB will steer a middle course.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 01:50:05 AM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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Tau Neutrino
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 09:05:42 PM »

Yep- it's "Arlington creep."  AP meet used to end about 5-7 days before end of September.  Lately it's been right up to the 30th last year, close enough this time.  So, HAW wants the Kentucky Derby?  All for it-AP shouldn't have all three legs. 

A fair arrangement for both tracks concerning the Triple Crown would be: Arlington would always get the Belmont, the two tracks would alternate the Preakness year by year, and Hawthorne would always get the Derby.

I don't care who owns Arlington-tough!  CD's other tracks can run live that weekend (ask Louisiana Board to extend FG meet).  If CD insists on its industry-friendly ways in IL, IRB should end the AP meet on Labor Day until they're scared straight.  Stick it to the Churchill bullies!         
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The Turf Monster
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 07:21:01 AM »

Great idea Tau, give one of the 2 days a year that brings in new fans in Illinois to Hawthorne. 
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 09:17:36 AM »

Great idea Tau, give one of the 2 days a year that brings in new fans in Illinois to Hawthorne. 

Most of the rants on here don't use logic.  Without millions of dollars in renovations, HAW will have trouble attracting anyone but the most hardened race fans. The KY Derby, and to a lesser extent the Preakness and Belmont, are akin to Christmas and Easter to churches.  Racing "tourists" show up for the Derby, and I dont think that HAW can compare with an AP experience (even with their higher prices) among casual fans. HAW has the 2 biggest days for hardcore players, the Breeders Cup - that is their strength.

Playing to HAW's strengths is what is best for both HAW and IL racing.  I know that many feel that AP and/or CDI must be crushed - but I don't think their anger allows them to logically count the cost.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 09:35:51 AM »

Great idea Tau, give one of the 2 days a year that brings in new fans in Illinois to Hawthorne. 

The Kentucky Derby was always a success when it was held at Sportsman's, and it was a success when it was held at Hawthorne, and the reason is, it is the Kentucky Derby that attracts the fans, a race from another state ... the race ... not the Illinois track that happens to be simulcast host.
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 10:17:19 AM »

The Kentucky Derby was always a success when it was held at Sportsman's

You are right about that. I was at Sportman's several years on Derby Day and the place was packed.
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 10:45:09 AM »

The Kentucky Derby was always a success when it was held at Sportsman's

You are right about that. I was at Sportman's several years on Derby Day and the place was packed.

But I am sure that you would agree that the racing/wagering landscape is nothing like it was before Sportsman's closed down in 1999 - the tracks back then had a captive audience. If you lived here and wanted to wager on the race your options were limited to the track open at the time or a limited # of OTBs.

With all the options available to even casual players today, there has to be something other than the ability to wager to get them to attend. Even more importantly, to make newbies want to come back again. Location (not geographic location but easy access) and superior facilities is why AP is the smart choice for IL racing, even if it means CDI makes money.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 10:48:31 AM by beobob » Report to moderator   Logged
The Turf Monster
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 10:54:48 AM »

The Kentucky Derby was always a success when it was held at Sportsman's, and it was a success when it was held at Hawthorne, and the reason is, it is the Kentucky Derby that attracts the fans, a race from another state ... the race ... not the Illinois track that happens to be simulcast host.

You can live in a fantasy world where Hawthorne would get as many people out for the Derby in 2014 as Arlington, or you could live in reality.  It's your choice
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 11:01:10 AM »

You can live in a fantasy world where Hawthorne would get as many people out for the Derby in 2014 as Arlington, or you could live in reality.  It's your choice

It wouldn't get as many people. It never did. But the Kentucky Derby always did perfectly well in Illinois no matter what track held it.

As for your claim that some simulcast event for which the host track gouges patrons who walk in the door "brings in new fans" ... your proof of that claim would be ... ?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 11:07:40 AM »

Location (not geographic location but easy access) and superior facilities is why AP is the smart choice for IL racing, even if it means CDI makes money.

We're talking about a simulcast event here, not "Illinois racing".

It's pretty pathetic when four of the five big days at our premier "race" track are a) a simulcast event, b) a holiday for mothers, c) a holiday for fathers, and d) a fireworks show. 

And I might add, if Arlington really did create as many new fans out of the "I'm only here to show off my stroller" crowd as people claim, Illinois would be swimming in race bettors and mutuel handle, and there'd be no troubles at all.
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 11:39:33 AM »

We're talking about a simulcast event here, not "Illinois racing".

But every dollar bet on site benefits the Horsemen's purse account. More people = more money.

It's pretty pathetic when four of the five big days at our premier "race" track are a) a simulcast event, b) a holiday for mothers, c) a holiday for fathers, and d) a fireworks show. 

Horse racing is not the only only choice gamblers in IL have. Racing is generally not the first choice of pure gamblers because of the skill set required and down time between races. With that being true, AP can either market to an ever shrinking pool of pure horse players (who don't need to attend to wager), or promote events that fills the track hoping that those who attend wager and have enough fun to want to come back again.

And I might add, if Arlington really did create as many new fans out of the "I'm only here to show off my stroller" crowd as people claim, Illinois would be swimming in race bettors and mutuel handle, and there'd be no troubles at all.

Who knows, the next Terry or HorseVoice might be in one of those strollers.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 12:40:59 PM »

But every dollar bet on site benefits the Horsemen's purse account. More people = more money.

Every dollar bet everywhere does - track, OTB, some ITW site ... those all being places to bet the Derby in years past.

Quote
Horse racing is not the only only choice gamblers in IL have. Racing is generally not the first choice of pure gamblers because of the skill set required and down time between races. With that being true, AP can either market to an ever shrinking pool of pure horse players (who don't need to attend to wager), or promote events that fills the track hoping that those who attend wager and have enough fun to want to come back again.

And the ever declining annual handle figures the IRB reports shows the results of this "casual visitors first" strategy.
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 12:52:47 PM »

Every dollar bet everywhere does - track, OTB, some ITW site ... those all being places to bet the Derby in years past.

But the OTB and ADW players aren't the casual players who will not bet unless they are at the track.  AP will attract far more casual players than HAW.

And the ever declining annual handle figures the IRB reports shows the results of this "casual visitors first" strategy.

Not an Illinois phenomenon.  Shrinking field size, unrealistic takeouts, and gambling alternatives kill the handle, not too many people with nice strollers.
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 12:53:04 PM »

The answer to all this is give it to the track that would have the biggest over-all handle on Derby Day.  End of argument.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 01:00:24 PM »

The answer to all this is give it to the track that would have the biggest over-all handle on Derby Day.  End of argument.

It all depends what the IRB wants to accomplish with its dates allocations.

If it thinks it is important to have two semi-healthy racetracks in the area, it spreads out the revenue. If it's okay with one track or corporation holding a monopoly (and thus having a sword with which to threaten the State and horsemen at every turn - "I'll take my ball and go home!" foot stomp foot stomp), then concentrate all the revenue at one track.

So far they've chosen to try to keep two tracks open, but at the same time have allocated the KY Derby to Arlington, and tried to make up for that by giving Hawthorne dark dates. I expect the same will continue this time around, and that this is really a useless debate.
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 04:08:12 PM »

But I am sure that you would agree that the racing/wagering landscape is nothing like it was before Sportsman's closed down in 1999 - the tracks back then had a captive audience. If you lived here and wanted to wager on the race your options were limited to the track open at the time or a limited # of OTBs.

You are right that it's a different era from Sportman's time but Derby Day still attracts the biggest crowds of any race day. Any place that takes a wager is jam packed with casual fans. I believe it is a tradition for the casual fan to bet on the Derby. Breeder's Cup is no where near as crowded at the OTB I go to as on Derby Day or for the Belmont when there could be a potential Triple Crown winner. We stopped going to the OTB on Derby Day because it's just too crowded. I keep hoping the Derby will attract more fans to the sport but I just haven't seen it happening.
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