Chicago Barn to Wire BRIS
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


October 22, 2014, 10:26:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Track Maintenance?  (Read 2807 times)
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1022




Ignore
« on: November 19, 2005, 11:02:19 AM »

Just looked at yesterdays HAW charts and noticed that speed/presser types won the early races. After the 5th race, deep closers took over. While I have no stats, it seems that I've noticed this pattern before. Does anyone know if some kind of track maintenance takes place during the middle of the card that would favor closers?

Ed
Report to moderator   Logged
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 01:34:29 AM »

Track maintenance...at Hawthorne?Huh
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 04:57:05 AM »

Track maintenance...at Hawthorne?Huh

 Roll Eyes  I knew all of that crap you wrote about how great AP is, and how important they are to Illinois racing was just blatant AP-hugging. Good to see your true colors come out, Jim -- you don't have an objective thing to say about Hawthorne, do you?

Ed: I watch the same tractors with the same tillers attached go around the track the same way after every race. Nothing special happens after the 5th race that I can detect. I suspect that what you might be noticing is jockey bias, not track bias.

See, the jockeys are human, just like horseplayers, and when they lose they need a handy excuse -- again, just like horseplayers. Voila! It must be the track bias!

So what happens is, after half the card is over, and the jocks have been in the jocks room, reading BTW posts about track bias, they start chanting "Track Bias! Track Bias! Must Go To Front" in unison. Then the gates open for the 6th and everybody leaves, almost, except for a closer or two who circles the field late and picks up the pieces from an overly hot early pace.

I watched Guidry do it here for years...funny how the "Track Bias" bullshit excuse rarely came out when he was here. 
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 11:34:02 AM »

Yesterday I watched a race at Churchill. In this race, two horses got out in front and battled all the way around the track. They still finished 1-2. From this race I conclude Churchill is a dang rail-bias speed-bias track.

Never mind they were both low odds. I think the 5-2 beat a 9-5.

Anyhoo, I did notice the tractors driving around the Hawthorne track between races yesterday, but I didn't make notes. Today I will keep scrupulous notes, and report back here on what track maintenance they did. I'll also keep note of how certain horses won, and how, especially if some horse did something he wasn't expected to do.

Hey, did you notice how in the 4th race yesterday, Butterscotch Dave and Thornwood got out there on a nice lead, but then the bias went away and they folded up on the 2nd turn, and some horses that had been like 3 lengths behind them swept by? Just exactly like it looked like was going to happen on paper? Easiest 10 cent super I ever got. And at $29.something, I'm guessing no one else got fooled either.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2005, 07:46:05 PM »

Here is today's track maintenance report.

At noon there was no equipment on the track, but the track had been groomed. It looked to be lightly harrowed. A thin layer of ice covered part of the pond, which is still low on water, and a slight breeze was blowing from the southwest. All of the infield hedges and bushes looked to have been recently clipped. The Halloween pile of pumpkins was still there, but more were on the ground and it looked like some of the straw bales they used to be on were missing. Maybe someone got a five finger discount on some straw.

At 12:31 pm three tractors left the chute area and started counterclockwise around the track. They only made it to about the 3/4 pole before they all did a U-turn and started going clockwise. A green tractor was in the lead on the rail, followed by a green tractor, with a grayish-white tractor bringing up the rear. The green tractors pulled light looking drags, while the grayish-white tractor had a larger drag with wheels. The lead tractor passed the finish line at 12:35 pm. It was still in the lead at 12:37 when they passed the 1/4 pole. Somehow I missed the 1/2 pole. Maybe the anthem was on or something. No change in running order at 12:42 when they once again reached the 1/4 pole. A wire to wire job by the lead tractor on the rail.


"A green tractor and the grayish tractor
drag the Hawthorne track in a clockwise
direction before the 1st race on Sunday, 11/20"

The track got groomed before the 2nd, but I missed it.

Between the 2nd and 3rd the tractors came out and groomed the track. This time they went counterclockwise all the way. Once again, the gray tractor was the trailing tractor aqll the way, and did the middle/outside of the track.

Got groomed before the 4th; missed it.

"       "            "         "  5th;  "        ". Wind a bit stiffer and more westerly.

Rats. Missed it again between the 5th and 6th.

After the 6th but before the 7th the tractors came out from the chute and started dragging counterclockwise, but THE GRAYISH TRACTOR STOPPED! And did not drag that time. When the green tractors got back by the chute there was some extra dragging out in front of the chute area.

After the 7th the tractors groomed counterclockwise, and one the green tractors even took an extra turn around the track and did the far outside rail. More extra grooming in front of the chute.

After the 8th the green tractors did a counterclockwise trip again, but I don't think the grayish tractor even came out of the chute area. Not sure entirely. There was an extra gray tractor over there all day, and then one of the gray tractors was nowhere to be seen and I could only see green tractors on the track. More extra grooming in front of the chute.

In other news, some of the broken windows at Sportsman's have been boarded up.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 07:49:03 PM by CLOCKERTERRY » Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2005, 12:17:00 AM »

A wire to wire job by the lead tractor on the rail.

Sonofabitch! There *is* a rail bias at Hawthorne.

I stand corrected.
Report to moderator   Logged
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1022




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 07:23:51 AM »

Thanks Terry.

Ed
Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2005, 08:58:51 AM »

CT -

If you ever want to learn the proper way to compose a shot(tractors and SP),
I'll be glad to help you out Grin At least the tractor shot is in focus........

Good information though, although I do worry a bit about all the time you devote here Smiley

What web site do you sent your pictures to in order to insert them on your posts?
Report to moderator   Logged
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2005, 03:36:48 PM »

Hey Horse Voice...you talk to ANY trainer at Hawthorne ANYONE you want, and they will tell you the track maintenance there is POOR at best. The hope all along was that once Sportsmans and Hawthorne got together the Track Super from Sportsmans would take over at Hawthorne and they would FINALLY have someone there who knew what they were doing. Out of all 3 tracks Sportsmans always had the best crew and track super. Unfortunately that was not what happened. I am not talking about track bias only I am talking about HOW the track is worked when it is worked how it is maintained, treated etc. Trainers almost have to BEG to get water put on the track. Many times there is far too much sand on the track. Many times the track is far too loose which tends to cause injuries to the horses too. The list goes on. I do not care if you believe me or not, as I said just ask the trainers what they think of the track "maintenance" at Hawthorne. If you're lucky they will stop laughing long enough to tell you what they think. This isn't a Hawthorne/AP thing, its just the way it really is.

AP is not perfect either but still better than what goes on at Hawthorne. I have always said that everyone in racing needs a license except the one group of people that have one of the strongest impacts on the game, the track supers. The NTRA should come up with a training class and a license for the superentendants. This I feel would vastly improve racing across the US.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2005, 04:55:31 PM »

CT -

If you ever want to learn the proper way to compose a shot(tractors and SP), I'll be glad to help you out Grin At least the tractor shot is in focus........

LOL!

Well, first of all, it is a very cheap digital camera, so the pictures are never going to be great. Then, I'd brought it to take a picture of Spt since I noticed the boards the day before, and just thought at the last second as I was writing notes about the tractors to use it to take a picture there, so that's how they got past me already and I was shooting from my table. Then, I forgot about going out to take the picture of Sportsman's until it was almost dark, so that's why that one is so out of focus. Poor little camera probably had to choose some speed like 1/5 to get enough light.

I put the pictures on my own website and then link them in here.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2005, 05:06:00 PM »

Hey Horse Voice...you talk to ANY trainer at Hawthorne ANYONE you want, and they will tell you the track maintenance there is POOR at best. The hope all along was that once Sportsmans and Hawthorne got together the Track Super from Sportsmans would take over at Hawthorne and they would FINALLY have someone there who knew what they were doing. Out of all 3 tracks Sportsmans always had the best crew and track super. Unfortunately that was not what happened. I am not talking about track bias only I am talking about HOW the track is worked when it is worked how it is maintained, treated etc. Trainers almost have to BEG to get water put on the track. Many times there is far too much sand on the track. Many times the track is far too loose which tends to cause injuries to the horses too. The list goes on.

No doubt because every trainer knows more about maintaining tracks than track supers. I have never had a horse at any track where trainers weren't *** about track maintenence one way or the other.

I've no doubt Hawthorne could be better, I've heard the *** too, but geez, it has to "hold up" in weather from 95 in September down to -20 in January, not to mention snow and freezing, and then support a harness meet part of the year too, which the other track doesn't. Maybe they should do Polytrack. Wonder how harness horses like that?
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2005, 08:16:00 AM »

Many times there is far too much sand on the track. Many times the track is far too loose which tends to cause injuries to the horses too.

I have heard this complaint before, and I wonder how the track can be "too sandy and loose" and yet, "extremely speed biased", as many posters (not you, Jim) have posted / complained here on BTW. LOL, it can't be both.

I had heard over the years that Sportsman's surface was favored by the horsemen, but I thought it was more because of the banked turns, which were supposed to be pretty easy on a horse's legs.

Something still doesn't figure here, Jim -- if the Hawthorne surface is *sooooo* bad for the horses, why are the fields so full? Wouldn't the horsemen boycott the entry box to protect their horses? Sounds to me like another handy excuse trainers come up with to tell owners why their cheap platers aren't winning, after telling the owner all summer that "the competition is too tough here at AP -- we'll get 'em at Hawthorne". What's next -- "too tough here -- we need to ship to Great Lakes Downs"? Owners aren't that Pollyanna-ish.

Really, has *any* trainer ever been honest with an owner and said "I'm sorry, your horse just can't compete with the $4K N1Y here -- better sell him to the Amish". Unlikely -- no trainer just throws away daily training fees. So they blame the track.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2005, 11:33:09 AM »

Horse Voice

In fairness, the horsemen do complain about the Hawthorne track, and it is not regarded as among the best in the country. But it's sand after all. Has to be, as a winter track. They also complain a lot about the track at Arlington but not as much. They complain about them all. The only tracks that didn't get many complaints were Hialeah and Fair Grounds.

They liked the "new" Sportsman's track, at least the first year, then there were some complaints the 2nd year. But that track had a few advantages didn't it, like being a new state of the art design as well as being elevated so it had unique drainage advantages and COULD be state of the art. I never heard much good about the old Sportsman's, though. Horsemen called it "hard" and from handicapper's there was even more complaining about it as speed biased.
Report to moderator   Logged
John Frank
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1436




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2005, 11:53:53 PM »

If all you posters are so good at track maintenence, why don't you send your *** resume with qualifications and then take over. I'll tell you why? NOT A *** ONE OF YOU HAS A 8TH GRADE DEGREE. Therefore I will take the illegal who can't read or write who is running it now over any of you stupid ***.
Report to moderator   Logged
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2005, 12:41:42 AM »

Terry you are right, the Hawthorne track has a lot to contend with, which is my very point. They should have as good a person as they can to maintain it. They just never have. This really isn't a comment on the track "bias" but more about the condition of the track. There are many times that the track is uneven, this is in addition to the complaints of it being loose, full of clumps, too sandy, too hard or too deep. In most cases it goes from one extreme to another which would tend to make one believe the track is maintained more by reaction to the elements instead of planning for the elements. This is nothing new, and has been a sore point for the trainers for a long time now. Yes, Horsevoice you are correct too in that many times some of these complaints are just excuses that trainers come up with.....which seems to be a never ending book in itself. But these complaints go beyond those excuses too. I have heard from trainers who have won races and still are not happy with the condition of the track or how hard it may have been on his/her horse. Many vets will tell you that dual purpose (Tbreds and harness) are very hard on horses. I have even read some articles from vets saying this has been one of the reasons horses do not last as long as they once did as running on these type tracks which usually have a limestone base is very tough on horses legs. I do not know how valid that point may be but it is worth considering and looking into. I would LOVE to see Hawthorne go to the polytrack surface, but I have no idea if or could harness races be run on such a surface. I would think Hawthorne would like it too should harness be able to run on it as it would cut costs way down and they wouldn't need to change the track from one meet to another. Just thinkyou could have Tbreds during the day and harness at night!

The track bias issue is another story but one in which could be related to some of the above mentioned problems. But any track has some bias and that is a part of the game, to see and bet with how the track is playing that day.  Lets face it there are times at Hawthorne when the only handicapping one needs to do is to figure out what horse will break first and bet it to win. Or when the track is muddy just have your jock run the horse in the tractor's tracks. But again thats Hawthorne and if you play that track you have to figure those things in when you bet.
Report to moderator   Logged
jimk
Full Member
***
Posts: 248




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2005, 06:55:22 AM »

Those built-in conditions at Haw. that can cause a bias kind of remind me of how the one and two holes are automatic throw-outs when going a mile out of the AP chute. Been that way for several years now. I guess that wouldn't be news to you being a horse owner. I hope they fix that one of these years and I hope I might be one of the first to know about it.
Report to moderator   Logged
ggenie
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 308




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2005, 10:23:04 AM »

One other thing you may want to consider is the sun-setting factor.  Down at my end of the grandstand we have talked about it for years, that especially the last 3 races the closers come.  The sun brings the moisture up, and the track changes color later in the day.
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.132 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Arlington Million
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy