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Author Topic: hi Mom! That will be $12  (Read 2178 times)
The Turf Monster
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:19 AM »

Can't look at it that way, unless it is your belief that everyone that doesn't pay the $12 admission will only wager it once (or worse, not at all).

Think "churn".

The takeout on the churn will never come close to $12 for 99.99% of those paying admission

I really dont see the issue here.  If you dont want to pay $12 to get in.....dont.  Its no different than how takeout rates push me from certain bets at certain tracks.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2013, 09:33:12 AM »

It's gonna take a lot of "churn" to equal the admission profit margin. What about the poor guy who loses his whole $12 on his first bet?

It takes $171 in wagers to equal $12 in commissions. Not at all impossible...except on Polytrack, of course.  Grin

Regarding the guy who loses the whole $12 in his first bet, a) conceivably, he came with MORE than that, and is $12 further away from tapping, b) he's more likely to come back another time, and c) he's more likely to tell others what a great wagering game horse racing is.

$5 parking, $12 admission, $7 DRF...more, if you want a reserved seat? Ain't nobody telling nobody about any "good deals" at the racetrack.  thumbs down



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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2013, 09:36:55 AM »

The takeout on the churn will never come close to $12 for 99.99% of those paying admission

I see.

So, what you are saying is, those that attend AP live are terrible horseplayers who, as a group, make SO LITTLE for the house that AP has to rip $12 out of their hands upfront to ensure some sort of revenue coming in.

If you disagree with that assessment, please provide another that supports your statement above.
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The Turf Monster
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« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2013, 10:29:04 AM »

Maybe we should start at the beginning for you and go over the fact that for money to be paid to a winner, there are losers - usually multiple losers.  The likelihood for one person to walk into the track and make $170something in wagers out of $12 is extremely low, the likelihood of even a handful doing it would be astronomically low
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PURPLE LAVERN
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« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »

If they charge $12 & keeps riff raff & shwag away- that works for me  (personally)..
Don't need to be hearing crying babies in line to make wagers, hear enough of that on line laughing guy

However,  I do think that it hurts the product in the long run & less people are going to be introduced to racing....
If it is costing a family of 4- almost $50 to get through the turn styles, that is a bit crazy if u ask me

Still gonna be plenty of dead money walking around that place
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Grinder
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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2013, 10:39:27 AM »

Maybe we should start at the beginning for you and go over the fact that for money to be paid to a winner, there are losers - usually multiple losers.  The likelihood for one person to walk into the track and make $170something in wagers out of $12 is extremely low, the likelihood of even a handful doing it would be astronomically low

But isn't the number of people going to see live racing with only $12 to play also astromically low?
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The more you bet...the more you win
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2013, 10:49:01 AM »

You want to know how else they cheaped out ... last year it was first 7500 ladies that got free roses, this year only 5000.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2013, 10:50:44 AM »

Maybe we should start at the beginning for you and go over the fact that for money to be paid to a winner, there are losers - usually multiple losers. 

What, you think I understand how racetrack commissions work, but I don't understand that for someone to win, someone else has to lose? Gimme a break.

You don't have to turn $12 into $171 in one move. There are plenty of people who know how to double and then quadruple modest bankrolls into a decent amount of cash.

The math is not nearly as bad as you suggest: at ~20% takeout, I only need 4 people to lose $2 for me to win $8 for my $2 bet. If the numbers were as bad as you suggest, 90% of the patrons would be busted after the 1st race.

Your kind of thinking is the same as those who don't understand why increases in takeout hurt handle. Hell, let's just take it ALL at the door, and get it over with. Right?
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cubfan
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« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2013, 11:00:22 AM »

Louie, of that $12, how much profit does AP make if it is wagered vs spent on admission?

It's the betting that brings them back. Not the overpriced crap food they have there. If a regular non-bettor turns the $12 into, say $40, AP would get it back 10 times during the course of a racing season.

They not only seem to forget that, but really don't give a s^%#
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beobob
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« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2013, 11:01:31 AM »

If it is costing a family of 4- almost $50 to get through the turn styles, that is a bit crazy if u ask me

Whether we think it is too high (which I do) or not, consumers always let you know when you've overpriced your product. It appears that for the crowd that showed up Sunday $12 is not too high.  Maybe they weren't aware of the price before they got to the gate and didn't want to turn around and go back to the car.  If that's the case we'll know later in the season if attendance declines on big family days.

I believe that children 5-17 are $5, so the hypothetical family of 4 would be $34.  That would equate to over $400 in wagers for AP to bank the same revenue.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2013, 11:04:25 AM »

I believe that children 5-17 are $5

What? Still just a low, low $5 to bring in your 5 y.o. on Mother's Day, too? They didn't bump that $4 like the adult mother tickets? Such a bargain.

I think the real harm, if any, of this "special day" admission price reaming might be to the impression of your casual guest who only comes a few times a year. If he/she sees $12 on the first day he/she has been out all year, what's he/she think is going to be the price of admission next time?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 11:07:38 AM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
Louie Weedelbaum
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« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2013, 11:05:50 AM »

Louie, of that $12, how much profit does AP make if it is wagered vs spent on admission?

What does it cost to have an employee there taking the $12 from everyone?  Their salary and any fringe benefits must be deducted.  Let's say over the course of a week 500 people stay away becasue of the $12 admission....that's quite a few $12 spots they are not getting at all.

If you look at it as a one day thing then yes, but Arlington has been in it for a long time and over that time they would come at at least equal, if not way ahead.

What about the guy who bets the $12 in the first race, hits for $200 and gambles on the $200 all day?
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Louie Weedelbaum
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« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2013, 11:11:07 AM »

What do the casinos charge to get in?
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beobob
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« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2013, 11:29:50 AM »

I think the real harm, if any, of this "special day" admission price reaming might be to the impression of your casual guest who only comes a few times a year. If he/she sees $12 on the first day he/she has been out all year, what's he/she think is going to be the price of admission next time?

That may well be. If I worked there (which I have been accused of) I would have given a restricted free pass for another day with every full price admission. Wouldn't cost that much as many would be lost or go unused, but it would surely bring some back and be good PR.

CDI gets regularly reamed here because they are ruthless in their pursuit of the bottom line.  If attendance trends lower because of the high admission price they will react accordingly. CDI wants $$$, if higher prices affects their bottom line their shareholders will expect action.
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Mary Ann
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« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2013, 11:48:14 AM »

I'm sure a lot of people had a good time at Arlington but there are those who are annoyed and are writing reviews, giving specifics. Other reviews in the link below are prior to Arlington opening this year. It appears Arlington was getting much better reviews last year:

Colleen D.
Chicago, IL
5/12/2013

I used to love coming to Arlington.  I also realize that this is a business and they need to make money.  My experience today took that motivation a step too far -- I am done with Arlington.

Okay, I do know it was Mother's Day but that is not an excuse to gouge a family.  My husband made a reservation for the Million Room (aka the Bazillion Room), the fancy restaurant at the racetrack.  We were going to have brunch with my mother in law, sister in law and niece.  When making the reservation, he was asked for a $30 "deposit".  Being called a deposit, we assumed that it was to make sure that we showed up for the reservation and the credit applied to our bill.  Electronic tickets were sent upon payment for the five of us.

When we arrived, we learned that the tickets were not for admission to the park.  That was $12 each.  We also discovered at the end of our experience in the Bazillion Room that the "deposit" was actually a payment to have the pleasure to sit in there and pay for brunch.  In other words, our group of five paid $90 to walk into Arlington Park, into the Bazillion Room and sit down to spend more money.  Really?  Oh, did I mention that they also charged us for an extra person at the buffet that we luckily caught before the final bill was signed?

I am done.  Arlington, you have been a great destination for my family, friends and myself for the past twenty years.  I just can't afford you any more.

Review from Fygar F.
Ukrainian Village, Chicago, IL
5/6/2013

Remember back in the day when you were welcomed with a smile at the park; when children were allowed in for free and when you could bring some food for the kids?  Well those days we enjoyed as recently as 6 months ago are gone...

Now "Arlington International Raceway" welcomes you with a security detail that rummages through women's purses looking for that cookie or ham sandwich you're smuggling in.  If they find it, your bag gets tagged and now you have to pay an additional $5 as you enter.  One purse + 1 bag of snacks + 1 small cooler = $15.

In an even stranger move, they now charge $2 for kids.  Yes, I know it's still very cheap, but it just feels dirty like the poly track.

Jessica M.
Chicago, IL
5/6/2013

Do not come HUNGRY or bring your own food! My friend and I both had the nachos on Saturday Kentucky Derby Day and a few hours later MASSIVE VOMITING!!! Fun place to go, just terrible experience with the food!


Jeannie A.
Burbank, IL
5/7/2013

Giddyup race fans - Arlington opened this past weekend!

Even if you are not a gambler or know anything about horse racing - Arlington is worth spending the day at.    It is just an absolutely beautiful park. 

You can pack a cooler, grab a picnic table, and hang out all day long.    Watching the racing is exciting - betting on the races is even better.   Come on, throw $2 in and pick a horse!  Even if you don't win - cheering on the ponies as they race right past you - is fun.   

There are many different seating options - for free or to pay for.   We rented 3 picnic tables this past weekend - brought a ton of homemade food in - and spent 8 hours hanging out and having fun.  The weather was gorgeous.  We were right on the track.  A great way to spend the day.

Check their website - there are many days that have live music or other things going on!!


http://www.yelp.com/biz/arlington-park-racetrack-arlington-heights
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Louie Weedelbaum
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« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2013, 12:01:02 PM »

And to think Saratoga is 3 bucks to get in and you can bring in a couple of coolers filled with food, beer or whatever you want as long as there is no glass bottles.  And the coolers get in for free.

Maybe next time he's on the Steve Byk show Steve can ask RLD about this rather than gushing over him calling him "the incredible Dick Duchossois" and throwing him softballs.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 12:19:31 PM by Louie Weedelbaum » Report to moderator   Logged
Ed
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« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2013, 12:14:23 PM »

What are the chances of a casual bettor making money? Hell, most regulars lose money on any given day. Check out the results of the contests conducted here in the past. Very few show a profit. AP makes way more on admissions/concessions than the casual fan betting on these days. As many have already said, the market will dictate the cost. If you don't like it stay home.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2013, 12:18:57 PM »

Steve can ask RLD about this rather than gushing over him calling him "the incredible Dick Duchossois"

To my ear, Steve is saying, "The "incredible dick"!...Duchoissois".

Subtle difference, yes, but I like it much better this way. nyah
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Derby76
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« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2013, 12:21:09 PM »

What would all the Hawthorne Homers on this site say if they started raising prices on anything?  I'm sure they would justify it somehow. Arlington will adjust accordingly if attendance drops but if they can get away with the increases, more power to them.  If you don't like paying extra, then don't go there, plain and simple.
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« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2013, 12:28:00 PM »

And to think Saratoga is 3 bucks to get in and you can bring in a couple of coolers filled with food, beer or whatever you want as long as there is no glass bottles.  And the coolers get in for free.

The proverbial question, what came first? Do they get a million dollar onsite handle because they charge $3, or are they able to charge $3 because they get a million dollars wagered onsite?
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Louie Weedelbaum
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« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2013, 12:33:19 PM »

The proverbial question, what came first? Do they get a million dollar onsite handle because they charge $3, or are they able to charge $3 because they get a million dollars wagered onsite?

They have always had a great handle at Saratoga and always have great crowds.  Admission has increased only $1 since the 1980's.  It used to be 2 bucks.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2013, 12:43:06 PM »

What would all the Hawthorne Homers on this site say if they started raising prices on anything?  I'm sure they would justify it somehow.

The world may never know, because the Carey's aren't a bunch of greedy soulless thieves!

(And you DO know that Hawthorne pays a rebate, anywhere from 1 - 4% based on your action...while AP pays about 0.4% unless you give them over $20K per month in wagers; justify THAT!)
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« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2013, 01:02:55 PM »

They have always had a great handle at Saratoga and always have great crowds.  Admission has increased only $1 since the 1980's.  It used to be 2 bucks.

I think $12 is too much -I would never pay that, I don't work for AP, I think HAW has a place in IL racing (though maybe not running in the dead of winter).  With that preamble I hope my point below isn't just seen as nonsense from an AP hugger.

Huge on track handle gives any track financial flexibility.  Saratoga is also owned and run by a nonprofit organization so there is no thought given to maximizing profits.  CDI must maximize profits.  They start every quarter at 0.00.  Like it or not that is the reality that we live in.  With the decline in onsite wagering tracks have to make up the slack somewhere and entry fees and concessions are it.  Would free admission increase handle to the point that it would even out? I don't think so.  If I were a horseman (oh wait a minute, I am) I would rather have them maximize contributions from the public (without destroying attendance or handle), because once they are done with them they are coming after us.
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beobob
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« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2013, 01:53:57 PM »

The world may never know, because the Carey's aren't a bunch of greedy soulless thieves!

(And you DO know that Hawthorne pays a rebate, anywhere from 1 - 4% based on your action...while AP pays about 0.4% unless you give them over $20K per month in wagers; justify THAT!)

AP will push and squeeze for every nickel they can. AP charges what they do and sets rebates where they are because they can. While I am sure that the Carey's are delightful crowd, they are first and foremost shrewd businessmen. They have their prices set as high as they think the market will allow. Their rebate schedule is what it is because they believe it is in their best interest, not the player's.  They might not have shareholders to answer to, but they do have multiple generations that have a financial interest.  

The Carey's should be lauded for holding their franchise together with all the negatives they have to contend with. However, I think that anyone who underestimates what they will do to protect the family and its business does so at their peril.  Right now it is in their best interest to placate the public and horsemen in most every instance, it might not always be so.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2013, 02:06:08 PM »

The world may never know, because the Carey's aren't a bunch of greedy soulless thieves!

Well, price of simulcast admission seems a bit steep. But you get your pp's.
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"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
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