Chicago Barn to Wire
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


November 21, 2014, 06:20:37 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Jon Court Sucked today  (Read 3435 times)
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« on: May 04, 2013, 05:16:37 PM »

His ride on Will Take Charge was pathetic. Watch the blimp view. Nice job Johnny Boy. There is a reason why you'll never win a Derby. He lost all momentum while running up Verrazano's ass. Horrible.
Report to moderator   Logged
afleet
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 76




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 07:22:32 PM »

I think you will see good things from this horse in the future as long as Lukas doesn't kill him first
Report to moderator   Logged
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 07:29:09 PM »

Personally, I think Lukas did a phenomenal training job. He was loaded for bear at the quarter pole. I strongly feel that he would have hit the board - or even run second. I had a $20 Ex Box 16-17. He was even washed out before the race and still kicked on. A big horse like that cannot stop and start on the dime at the top of the lane in the Worlds most prestigious race and expect to win. I'm not trying to act sour just because I picked this horse and told everyone about him...he was 36-1 and was live and Court blew it.
Report to moderator   Logged
afleet
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 76




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2013, 07:44:14 PM »

Personally, I think Lukas did a phenomenal training job. He was loaded for bear at the quarter pole. I strongly feel that he would have hit the board - or even run second. I had a $20 Ex Box 16-17. He was even washed out before the race and still kicked on. A big horse like that cannot stop and start on the dime at the top of the lane in the Worlds most prestigious race and expect to win. I'm not trying to act sour just because I picked this horse and told everyone about him...he was 36-1 and was live and Court blew it.

I thought Lukas wasted a lot of races on Optimizer burning him up in the triple crown last year.  If I owned Optimer I would have had him on the turf last year and would have $500k more in purses (at least) in the bank.
Report to moderator   Logged
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2013, 07:57:45 PM »

I thought Lukas wasted a lot of races on Optimizer burning him up in the triple crown last year.  If I owned Optimer I would have had him on the turf last year and would have $500k more in purses (at least) in the bank.

Great point. He is obviously a grass horse. He ran pretty good today, running 2nd to Wise Dan.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mick
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1151




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 09:26:36 PM »

The race certainly ran different than I ever imagined.   What was with Palice Malice taking off and setting such fast fractions?  Did Pletcher want to burn out Verazzano or did he really think PM could sustain those fractions for a mile and a quarter?

I expected a much slower pace and that the horses in the back would be eating a ton of slop.   That was why I got off Will take charge and effed up and skipped Orb (who was my original pick).   bang head
Report to moderator   Logged

I may not always be right, but I am never wrong.  Sam "The Genius" Lewin
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 09:41:40 PM »

Ya man. That was crazy. 45 and change? I just want to see who comes out of the race good and what the Preakness field may look like.
Report to moderator   Logged
TheRedMile
Guest

« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 09:47:07 PM »

 you want to talk bad ride check out stevens ride on oxbow
i know you want a good early spot but up that close to those fractions ?
Report to moderator   Logged
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 09:48:50 PM »

you want to talk bad ride check out stevens ride on oxbow
i know you want a good early spot but up that close to those fractions ?

It's safe to say that Lukas needs to make some changes.
Report to moderator   Logged
Tau Neutrino
Full Member
***
Posts: 139




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 06:54:27 AM »

Ya man. That was crazy. 45 and change? I just want to see who comes out of the race good and what the Preakness field may look like.
Right you guys are!  See my post: Mike Smith: Dimmest Judge of Pace In Triple Crown Races.
Report to moderator   Logged
brdman12
Newbie
*
Posts: 40




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2013, 07:25:06 AM »

    The 16 was a fairly easy pick, ( the favorite at 6-1..wow)...but could not see the 4 horse...
Report to moderator   Logged
joe bunzol
Full Member
***
Posts: 119




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2013, 12:14:09 PM »

Other than being Bill Fires son in law, I've never understood why anyone hires Jon Court
Report to moderator   Logged
SandyLoam
Guest

« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2013, 12:52:03 PM »

If they had mentioned the "coach" one more time, I might have lost my lunch. Lukas was good what? 100 years ago? He runs his horses into the ground, Maybe he needs  the cash flow.
Report to moderator   Logged
brivolta
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 789




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »

You guys are talking about a couple of bad rides, but how about the great ride Robby Albarado gave? He's back on top of his game
Report to moderator   Logged
afleet
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 76




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2013, 05:31:12 PM »

His ride on Will Take Charge was pathetic. Watch the blimp view. Nice job Johnny Boy. There is a reason why you'll never win a Derby. He lost all momentum while running up Verrazano's ass. Horrible.
I watched the overhead view a few times and it looks to me that JR floated into Courts path; didn't look like Courts fault to me.  I'd be pissed at JR
Report to moderator   Logged
Mick
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1151




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 05:41:33 PM »

I watched the overhead view a few times and it looks to me that JR floated into Courts path; didn't look like Courts fault to me.  I'd be pissed at JR
The truth is that luck plays a very big part in races like this.  I haven't seen the replays you all looked at but experience tells me that with 20 horses running, you need luck to avoid being stepped on, getting to a good patch of dirt,  and avoiding interference throughout one and a quarter miles.   

Orb got a good trip, others did not and that is all a part of racing luck.    clover   I am not defending Court or his ride, bad rides happen.  But with 19 other horses in the race, the liklihood of getting into trouble is exponentially higher than it is or will be in the Preakness or Belmont stakes.

Report to moderator   Logged

I may not always be right, but I am never wrong.  Sam "The Genius" Lewin
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 05:51:02 PM »

I watched the overhead view a few times and it looks to me that JR floated into Courts path; didn't look like Courts fault to me.  I'd be pissed at JR

Court needs to feel Rosario on his hip. He needs to feel & know that Verrazano was backing up and tired. He needs to feel the flow. He needs to know what to do and where to do it! He needs to react, not think. This is what separates the great jockeys from just the good ones. I'm sorry, he cost me a lot of money.
Report to moderator   Logged
jgp
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 727




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 06:10:27 PM »

Maybe a case of an owner being too loyal to the jockey?  The guy is 52, and really doesn't have the credentials to be in the derby.  I think he ran archarcharch, who got vanned off the track in his JC's only derby appearance.  You have to hope that they went after Borel, and ended up just sticking with Court, hindsights always 20/20 
Report to moderator   Logged
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4478




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 06:15:56 AM »

I'm sorry, he cost me a lot of money.

I'm going to do my best to keep this respectful.

It looks to me like you fell in love with a horse, and wouldn't listen to anyone who was trying to help you see where the "knocks" were on Will Take Charge. Very few professional handicappers had positive things to say about WTC.

I've watched the replay at least a dozen times already, and....while Court did make a couple of strange moves, there was plenty of time for the horse to get involved in the race. He didn't.

There were THREE major clues that most handicappers would have spotted to throw out WTC:

* Big winning efforts seem to tax this horse -- he seems to be an "in-and-outer", where a tremendous win (the "in" race) is followed by a stinker (the "out" race). That happened again Saturday.

* WTC stunk it up in his lone prior race at Churchill. Some horses don't like Churchill.

* While his breeding would indicate that he might like slop, his lone trip over a sloppy track was a total failure.

(Any one of these things, maybe you could overlook it if there was nothing else. Not all three, though.)

If you remember, Steve, I'll bet you can think of a time early in your handicapping career when the rudimentary clues above would have kept you off a horse...but you seem to have developed a knack for spotting future equine stars (like Curlin and Hamazing Destiny) very early in their careers, and once you lock onto a horse, you are "all in" on him.

Think this through. After some soul-searching (and maybe a few more view of the Derby replay), I'll bet you come back with a different opinion, other than "it's all Jon Court's fault".

Again, with all due respect.   
Report to moderator   Logged
HarnessFanDE
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3438




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 11:16:09 AM »

You couldn't have bet one cent on Will Take Charge if you saw him on the track.....The Derby was a great betting race because you knew Verrazano at that price couldn't be in the Top 4.......Talk about a horse who was deceased on the odds board.......They had to know he was going to be awful......My question is why not scratch?
Report to moderator   Logged

SHOWTIME!!!
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 03:41:48 PM »

You guys make me laugh. OK, HV, I also respect you. When I watched the race, I noticed that the horse made a move and checked, and faded. Did you see the Blimp view? Yes or no? I did not fall in love with this horse...I capped the hell out of this race. I picked WTC over ORB on PH. I boxed these two horses for $20. Watch the blimp overhead view and tell me that WTC would not have hit the board. He was clearly one of the best horses in the race - and he even washed out before the race. I will wait for your response. Again, here is the overhead video feed from the Derby:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21134540/vp/51776587#51776587

Report to moderator   Logged
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 03:54:09 PM »



I've watched the replay at least a dozen times already, and....while Court did make a couple of strange moves, there was plenty of time for the horse to get involved in the race. He didn't.


* While his breeding would indicate that he might like slop, his lone trip over a sloppy track was a total failure.

Look at the overhead view of the Kentucky Derby. I'm really pissed about the ride I got from jockey (Jon Court). As Orb starts to make his move in the final turn, you'll notice another horse (Will Take Charge) in white (right next to Orb), moving stride for stride with the winner before running up the back of Verrazano at the top of the stretch. He lost all momentum. I'm telling you guys, this horse would have at least run second. HV, he did not only like the slop, but he was skipping along on it like nothing. And, you said he didn't "get involved." I strongly disagree.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mary Ann
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2221




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 04:17:51 PM »

Stivo, this article may help. You'll have to look at the article for the chart. This article gives a lot of statistics.

"Will Take Charge was making the same move as Orb around the far turn of the big race. Just to the inside of the eventual winner, Will Take Charge actually recorded the fastest sixteenth from the five-sixteenths pole to the quarter pole. And then Will Take Charge ran into the one thing any Derby horse making a big move cannot afford to face a tiring horse, directly in front of him.  Below, take note of the two sixteenth-mile segments, first from the five-sixteenths to the quarter pole, and then from the quarter pole to the three-sixteenths.  The five-fastest individual performances from that last portion of the far turn are noted on the left, in order, with Will Take Charges time being just slightly faster than Orb, with eventual second Golden Soul being third-fastest at that point, then third-placer Revolutionary being fourth-fastest and fifth-home Mylute.
 
Then look at the first sixteenth-mile segment in the home stretch on the right - Will Take Charge ran up on the heels of Verrazano.  How much does that hurt your chances of a better finish? Within a sixteenth of a mile, Will Take Charge went from running the fastest segment to the fourth-slowest."

http://www.followhorseracing.com/en/the-latest/blogs/2013/05/6/inside-the-trip-kentucky-derby-trakus-data/
Report to moderator   Logged
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4478




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 04:44:30 PM »

And, you said he didn't "get involved." I strongly disagree.

I should have been more clear.

After being checked, WTC did not get back into the race.

Court was asking him to run, but the near collision either scared WTC into shutting down, or he was simply tired.

Would WTC have hit the board? I'd be more convinced of it had he shown some run *after* Verrazano cut him off -- there certainly was plenty of time to get moving again, and maybe pick up a minor share.

As far as Court is concerned: he was running inside of Orb, and Verrazano suddenly bore out...what would you have Court do in that case, come out on Orb? Make a wild, blind swing to the inside? Seasoned jockeys just don't do that kind of stuff in Grade I races.

Now that I've seen the overhead, I am even LESS inclined to put any blame on Court...not more!

Finally: as far as you "not falling in love with the horse", please review SOME of your posts on WTC, starting from right after the Rebel:

Will Take Charge carried high weight today and changed tactics. He came from mid-pack in between horses and ran hard to the wire. He is a huge horse. I bet he is approaching 17 hands. The breeding is impeccable. I'm excited about him and I'm glad he turned things around.

I don't think I'll bet any of the horses than ran yesterday in the Derby - or in my exotics - unless they train well leading up to the derby. I love ORB right now and nobody is talking about WILL TAKE CHARGE. I like him too.

I love Will Take Charge as of right now for the Derby and moving forward this summer. Orb will also be a big presence because he has successfully closed into slow fractions on a speed favoring strip. I am most impressed with him. His odds will also be a tad low but he's a MUST USE on all exotics instead of Verrazano.

I'm going to toss the entire fields of both the Blue Grass and Ark Derby for the Kentucky Derby. I'm still heavy on ORB and Will Take Charge would have crushed the Ark Derby yesterday.

Again, I might be sounding like a broken record but I like WILL TAKE CHARGE a lot. All reports out of Oaklawn is that he has grown a ton in the last 2 months and has gained good weight. His gallops are strong and he's working like a champ. I'm really anxious to see how he does at CD in the coming weeks. The 7 week layoff is not a concern for me as I know why the Coach is doing it. This horse is just growing too fast and he's already over 17 hands high. I'll also get a super price on him on Derby day. I like both him and ORB right now. - Stivo

And you say you "handicapped the hell" out of the race? Why would you do that, when you made it clear to everyone here 4 - 8 weeks before the Derby field and post positions were even known that you were going with ORB and Will Take Charge?
 
You are WAY too close to the forest to see the trees here, Steve: you didn't just fall in love with WTC -- you have the mother of all schoolboy crushes on the colt...and nothing I or anybody else says is going to change your mind.

So...we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Your enthusiasm about WTC and his future are noted, even admired -- there is nothing wrong with really liking a horse and hoping he does well...

...until it starts interfering with your betting decisions, that is. IMHO, that's what happened to you last Saturday.
Report to moderator   Logged
STIVO
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 491




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 05:00:14 PM »

HV. The horse was off since the Rebel and training fantastically. I did a huge write-up in Publichandicapper. Read it. Look, I caught you on this thread. The overhead proves it. The articles prove it. He's a big 17 hand horse. More like a train than a Ferrari. Did you see the momentum he had? No way he was going to do an Afleet Alex, he's not that type of horse. He needs to be in the clear. Say what you want HV, but you know that this horse was live and the amazing thing is that he ran so well being washed out. Cannot wait till the Preakness.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 05:02:30 PM by STIVO » Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.198 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Breeders' Cup
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Breeders' Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy