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Author Topic: Lime Spyder Racing Team LLC  (Read 9005 times)
trotter1
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« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2006, 10:44:03 AM »

I thoroughly disagree. Owners are in the best position to get the crooked trainers out of the game, by refusing to give them horses to train. I'm not suggesting that owners try to divine which successful trainers are cheating, but once a trainer builds a rap sheet as long as his arm like Rucker has, you know he's up to no good, and owners need to boycott those trainers.

If the crooks didn't have horses, the honest trainers would have higher win percentages and be making more money for their owners.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing with Rucker, however.  At least 70% of the horses he trains are either
owned by him or in partnership with others.  He is one guy that can still make
tons of cash without outside owners.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2006, 12:13:39 PM »

My 2 cents about lime spyder using Rucker.

As a prospective owner in the sport, its in the best interest of the owner to select the trainer that he feels has the best chance to get his horses into the winners circle.

Its not the job of Lime to 'police' the sport and weed out who's cheating and who is not. There are racing commissions and whatnut that hold that position. All lime has to do is win horseraces. If they DONT use Rucker and use a guy with a lower winning percentage, they are in the wrong business. They'd need to get out of the horse ownership business and into the private Eye/racing commission/policeman business.

If you are an owner, your job is to win horseraces, not police them. There are people out there who's job is to ensure the integrity of the races, so that part is well taken care of. Lime Spyder's job is to win horse races and the best way to win horse races is to open up the racing program and see if the trainer with the best statistics would be willing to train horses for you. If they say yes, you are on your way. If Rucker happens to be that guy, than he's the right guy for the job.

If Rucker 'forgets' how to train, than you move on to someone who doesn't have amnesia. Its about winning, you need to win to pay the bills.

I could see a person subscribing to this philosophy.  However, the create a partnership -- where you are trying to instill/build trust from a collective -- it just doesn't fly, IMO.  Can you imagine the issues that could arise, even just by MENTIONING Rucker as a possible trainer, if they hang him up in July?

It would appear that half the battle lies in keeping the group moral high, and keeping those in the partnership excited about being an owner.  I think that the negativity surrounding someone like Ken would dampen that.

None of this even touches on the moral aspect behind it.  His "rap sheet" is incredible.  If you feel the only way you can make money in the business is by affiliating with him, you need to find a new business.

Best,
EW
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2006, 12:13:06 AM »

I said it once and I'll say it again. Our current trainers are Deaton and Warren.
The people who joined our group are totally satisfied with those choices.
I did not put a gun to anyone's head to join.
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emp
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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2006, 12:17:16 AM »

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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2006, 12:20:46 AM »

I said it once and I'll say it again. Our current trainers are Deaton and Warren.
The people who joined our group are totally satisfied with those choices.
I did not put a gun to anyone's head to join.

Best of luck.  I admire your resolve.

Best,
EW
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2006, 05:41:59 PM »

EW

Thanks, all support is appreciated. Hopefully we are attracting new owners who
otherwise would not get involved in our great sport.
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T Rollin
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« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2006, 05:45:56 PM »

if theys get positives tests will u still keep them.  mattar of tyme be4 they load one up and kill them like rucker other night.  fall down dead at finsh wire.  bad bad bad.  thumbs down thumbs down
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micha goss
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« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2006, 06:08:39 PM »

Paul,

You do make good points.....but, as Stephen A. would say, "howevva"

Its noble and all to 'weed out' trainers you 'suspect' of wrongdoing, but the problem is that if you don't use a top trainer because you feel he's a cheat, someone else will use him....and there's a good chance your horses might have to race AGAINST that top guy...so, by getting the top guy (whether its Rucker or someone else) you not only get the services of a 'cutting edge' guy, but you also get to NOT have to race against him, which is huge.

Also, and here's another point.....as far as Rucker's laundry list goes. When a trainer gets a 'positive' or whatever his transgressions may be, there are 'punishments' that fit his mistake. When you make a mistake, you get punished...you serve your punishment, whether its days, or a fine, and you move on with your life. If Rucker is allowed to race after paying a fine or serving a suspension or both, those racing commissions are saying that Rucker is 'good to go'.

If the 'racing police' say Rucker has paid his pennance, than i don't think its too smart of a business decision to NOT give him horses. Now, if you don't think Rucker is any good, than thats a different story altogether...but, if you really would love Rucker to train for you, i think it wouldn't be good business to give your horses to a trainer with a lesser percentage.

You're getting in the business to win horse races, not to play Mother Teresa. Its perfectly ok to have morals and be an upstanding owner, but if you don't win races, why bother going into business in the first place?

Its like opening a deli and giving all the food away for free because you feel bad for the homeless guy on the corner. While its noble to feed the homeless, its a dumb idea to open a deli to do it. You open the deil to make a profit, same thing with horse ownership.

Maybe these racing commissions can get their act together and get the bad guys out of the game so the owners won't have to play policeman with their own money or the money of their syndicate.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2006, 06:15:22 PM »

Paul,

You do make good points.....but, as Stephen A. would say, "howevva"

Its noble and all to 'weed out' trainers you 'suspect' of wrongdoing, but the problem is that if you don't use a top trainer because you feel he's a cheat, someone else will use him....and there's a good chance your horses might have to race AGAINST that top guy...so, by getting the top guy (whether its Rucker or someone else) you not only get the services of a 'cutting edge' guy, but you also get to NOT have to race against him, which is huge.

Also, and here's another point.....as far as Rucker's laundry list goes. When a trainer gets a 'positive' or whatever his transgressions may be, there are 'punishments' that fit his mistake. When you make a mistake, you get punished...you serve your punishment, whether its days, or a fine, and you move on with your life. If Rucker is allowed to race after paying a fine or serving a suspension or both, those racing commissions are saying that Rucker is 'good to go'.

If the 'racing police' say Rucker has paid his pennance, than i don't think its too smart of a business decision to NOT give him horses. Now, if you don't think Rucker is any good, than thats a different story altogether...but, if you really would love Rucker to train for you, i think it wouldn't be good business to give your horses to a trainer with a lesser percentage.

You're getting in the business to win horse races, not to play Mother Teresa. Its perfectly ok to have morals and be an upstanding owner, but if you don't win races, why bother going into business in the first place?

Its like opening a deli and giving all the food away for free because you feel bad for the homeless guy on the corner. While its noble to feed the homeless, its a dumb idea to open a deli to do it. You open the deil to make a profit, same thing with horse ownership.

Maybe these racing commissions can get their act together and get the bad guys out of the game so the owners won't have to play policeman with their own money or the money of their syndicate.

This is logically perfect.  I agree entirely with everything that you said from a logical standpoint.

However, if you factor morals into the issue, I think much of your logical basis goes right out the window.

I (and as I gather from this site, others) think that it's morally inept to take a person with a past record as poor as Rucker's on as a trainer.  In my opinion, if the ONLY way I can succeed in the business is to make a what I view as a morally deficient decision, I will choose another business.  Period.

Best,
EW
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micha goss
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« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2006, 06:32:39 PM »

EW, thats my point....its not good business to get into horse ownership and give all your horses to oats and hay guys who win 5%. If your morals are so strong that you refuse to get into bed with the snakes, than horseownership is not a good idea.
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ageecee
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« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2006, 07:39:36 PM »

Paul,

You do make good points.....but, as Stephen A. would say, "howevva"

Its noble and all to 'weed out' trainers you 'suspect' of wrongdoing, but the problem is that if you don't use a top trainer because you feel he's a cheat, someone else will use him....and there's a good chance your horses might have to race AGAINST that top guy...so, by getting the top guy (whether its Rucker or someone else) you not only get the services of a 'cutting edge' guy, but you also get to NOT have to race against him, which is huge.

Also, and here's another point.....as far as Rucker's laundry list goes. When a trainer gets a 'positive' or whatever his transgressions may be, there are 'punishments' that fit his mistake. When you make a mistake, you get punished...you serve your punishment, whether its days, or a fine, and you move on with your life. If Rucker is allowed to race after paying a fine or serving a suspension or both, those racing commissions are saying that Rucker is 'good to go'.

If the 'racing police' say Rucker has paid his pennance, than i don't think its too smart of a business decision to NOT give him horses. Now, if you don't think Rucker is any good, than thats a different story altogether...but, if you really would love Rucker to train for you, i think it wouldn't be good business to give your horses to a trainer with a lesser percentage.

You're getting in the business to win horse races, not to play Mother Teresa. Its perfectly ok to have morals and be an upstanding owner, but if you don't win races, why bother going into business in the first place?

Its like opening a deli and giving all the food away for free because you feel bad for the homeless guy on the corner. While its noble to feed the homeless, its a dumb idea to open a deli to do it. You open the deil to make a profit, same thing with horse ownership.

Maybe these racing commissions can get their act together and get the bad guys out of the game so the owners won't have to play policeman with their own money or the money of their syndicate.



Awesome post-couldnt of said it any better
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2006, 12:44:59 AM »


Everybody keeps bringing up Rucker. When Lime Spyder begins operations Rucker is not part
of the team. Warren won two at Maywood tonight and Deaton had a triple at Northfield as he is
keeping himself sharp during the lull in action in Indiana. It's Warren and Deaton and we are
almost ready to launch!
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kellytuc
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« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2006, 02:20:21 AM »

When does the first claim take place?
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2006, 09:18:54 AM »


As it looks now, we might make our first claim next weekend.
We have been actively scouting Maywood and Balmoral this past week
and Indiana Downs opens up next weekend.
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midwestharnisdead
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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2006, 09:39:48 AM »

As it looks now, we might make our first claim next weekend.
We have been actively scouting Maywood and Balmoral this past week
and Indiana Downs opens up next weekend.
The scam will start and the true benefactors will ONLY be the corporation heads and not the investors??  Lets see how much ACTUALLY filters down to the investors.  When you get this rolling lets see those figures.  The way I see it the trainers, corp heads and drivers will get the largest proportion of any funds being made.
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swoodall
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« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2006, 01:17:54 PM »

WE HAVE ADDED A FEW NAMES TO THE MORON AND MORALLY CORRUPT LIST AT BTW!

First of all you back of the short yellow bus riding idiots.  Calling your post or someone else's logical DOES NOT make it logical!  If you agree with their distorted view of life and what's right and what's wrong then YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL!

CHEATING IS NOT NOW OR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD EVER BEEN CONSIDERED A MISTAKE!  EXCEPT ON BTW OF COURSE!

Bottom line is cheaters without horses can't cheat.  They will be forced to buy and race their own at their own expense.  If they can't afford to do so then they are out of the game.

Following the moral high road the morons on BTW have paved I see more and more hypocrites broken down on the side of it's roadway with every new post and thread.  How many of you multiple personality disordered escapes have criticized a crooked trainer with one side of your mouth then turned around in later threads and supported the owners who enable these guys to continue cheating?

Given the quality of individuals we now have posting on BTW, I want to propose a new investment idea that will make us all tons of money and because of this incredibile ability some of you have shown to compartmentize your morality, you will be able to get a good nights sleep too!  It goes like this:

I have an acquaintance who is looking for investers in his new business.  We invest $5k each to purchase the equipment needed to start operations.  This acquaintance will accept all the operational risk involved with this new business so the BTW investors will not be exposed to any operational penalities.  After operations begin no comunications between the owners and the acquaintance about the business or the direction it is headed will occur.  This is for your moral and legal protection.  Your ROI has tremendous potential!

Now all of you potential investors with a working moral compass hit the ignore button or close your eyes because the business the acquaintance will be involved in is about to be revealed.  This acquaintance is planning on robbing banks electronically.  This acquaintance has all the necessary skills to do a good job for his/her investors without exposing them to the inherent risks involved with operating outside the rules/laws.  All the BTW members have to do is provide the equipment and startup costs needed to begin operations. 

No one will be physically harmed in any way with this operation since the only BUSINESS being conducted involves the transferring of a few numbers on a computer screen kinda like the same LOGIC used when a cheating trainer transfers a few numbers on a computer screen in the book keepers office to his account after winning a crooked race!  Anyone interested?  Micha goss, Edward, ageecee and a few others please don't hurt each other trying to be the first in line.  There is enough immorality available for all of you.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 04:29:16 PM by swoodall » Report to moderator   Logged
njhorseman
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« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2006, 01:25:17 PM »

WE HAVE ADDED A FEW NAMES TO THE MORON AND MORALLY CORRUPT LIST AT BTW!

First of all you back of the short yellow bus riding idiots.  Calling your post or someone else's logical DOES NOT make it logical!  If you agree with their distorted view of life and what's right and what's wrong then YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL!

CHEATING IS NOT NOW OR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD EVER BEEN CONSIDERED A MISTAKE!  EXCEPT ON BTW OF COURSE!

Bottom line is cheaters without horses can't cheat.  They will be forced to buy and race their own at their own expense.  If they can't afford to do so then they are out of the game.

Following the moral high road the morons on BTW have paved I see more and more hypocrites broken down on the side of it's roadway with every new post and thread.  How many of you multiple personality disordered escapes have criticized a crooked trainer with one side of your mouth then turned around in later threads and supported the owners who enable these guys to continue cheating?

Given the quality of individuals we now have posting on BTW, I want to propose a new investment idea that will make us all tons of money and because of this incredibile ability some of you have shown to compartmentize your morality, you will be able to get a good nights sleep too!  It goes like this:

I have an acquaintance who is looking for investers in his new business.  We invest $5k each to purchase the equipment needed to start operations.  This acquaintance will accept all the operational risk involved with this new business so the BTW investors will not be exposed to any operatioal penalities.  After operations begin no comunications between the owners and the acquaintance about the business or the direction it is headed will occur.  This is for your moral and legal protection.  Your ROI has tremendous potential!

Now all of you potential investors with a working moral compass hit the ignore button or close your eyes because the business the acquaintance will be involved in is about to be revealed.  This acquaintance is planning on robbing banks electronically.  This acquaintance has all the necessary skills to do a good job for his/her investors without exposing them to the inherent risks involved with operating outside the rules/laws.  All the BTW members have to do is provide the equipment and startup costs needed to begin operations. 

No one will be physically harmed in any way with this operation since the only BUSINESS being conducted involves the transferring of a few numbers on a computer screen kinda like the same LOGIC used when a cheating trainer transfers a few numbers on a computer screen in the book keepers office to his account after winning a crooked race!  Anyone interested?  Micha goss, Edward, ageecee and a few others please don't hurt each other trying to be the first in line.  There is enough immorality available for all of you.


Swoodall:

I'm not 100% sure what you wrote, but I think I agree.  Wink
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emp
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« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2006, 01:30:08 PM »

Swoodall:

I'm not 100% sure what you wrote, but I think I agree.  Wink


Not making any OPINIONS on this one but here's a fact: SWoodall forgot to add Tsunami to the list at the end of his post.....
http://www.barntowire.com/smf/index.php?topic=5981.0
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swoodall
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« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2006, 01:32:42 PM »

NJhorseman

My typing and my thought process can not keep the same cadence.  By the time my fingers type it my mind has moved on.  I tried to make a fair comparison without gaps in my logic.  Oops, I shouldn't use logic in this thread!
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off stride
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« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2006, 01:32:54 PM »

i wonder how one mr daniel tanneyhill feels about his?
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njhorseman
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« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2006, 01:37:25 PM »

NJhorseman

My typing and my thought process can not keep the same cadence.  By the time my fingers type it my mind has moved on.  I tried to make a fair comparison without gaps in my logic.  Oops, I shouldn't use logic in this thread!

Swoodall:
I wasn't being critical...I just thought Joe Dakuras had returned to the list.  Wink
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Tsunami
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« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2006, 02:47:29 PM »

Not making any OPINIONS on this one but here's a fact: SWoodall forgot to add Tsunami to the list at the end of his post.....
http://www.barntowire.com/smf/index.php?topic=5981.0

Dan P.

I too, was interested about the idea and concept but like alot of the others was drawn off by the choice in trainers. I do like the fact that you`re trying to get more people involved in the industry and the name is pretty cool too.

What`s the old saying you can choose your friends but not your family? 
It`s a fine line when it comes to business decisions, even when family are involved.

Good Racing

micha goss

All good points but to what end , a D.O.A. like at Balmoral?

Again, it is a good concept and I wish Frog all the good luck in the world

"GET IN THE GAME LADDIE"

POST WHERE IT HAS SOME MEANING OR AT THE VERY LEAST MAKES SENSE   Huh
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burright
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« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2006, 04:22:57 PM »

some of you guys sound like a bunch of wackoos
robbing banks and being associated with a trainer who
might have had a few problems is a pretty good stretch
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swoodall
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« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2006, 04:32:45 PM »

Add burright to the moron list!

Last time I looked, for the hypocrites on here who are apparently blind too, the good book says "Thou Shall Not Steal."

It doesn't differentiate between banks or fellow horsmen.

Another thing, what the hell do you mean "might have had a few problems?"  Your a moron with lip service!
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burright
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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2006, 08:16:31 PM »

swoodall:
you are getting a little wacky here
your contention all trainers who go "beyond the rules" are thieves and cheaters
ok let's take a look at some of these top trainers

Andrew Robinson - Got caught redhanded, crook for sure
Jill Arnold - Mike's wife, former beard trainer for Morgan, obvious crook
Nelson Willis - Been around too long not to be a crook
Paul Stafford - Traines for Rucker, certainly a crook
Robin Schadt - Cmon, she has to be a crook
Erv Miller - He's gotten days before, certainly a crook
Dave McCaffrey - Dave has gotten days in the past too, must be a crook
Bruce Pacetti - Shady past, all of a sudden hot, has to  be a crook
Paul Blumenfeld - All California trainers are crooks, right
Joe Anderson - Enough said, are you kiddin, crook
Tom Simmons - Injects them in the aisle at the fairs, crook
Darcy Pletcher - Found the good stuff, must be a crook
Jerald Grevengoed - Associated with Morgan, has to be a crook

The list can go on and on.
You sound like one of the guys on the rail
who loses his bet and is convinced his driver stiffed.
Get your head out of your ass.


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