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Author Topic: Lime Spyder Racing Team LLC  (Read 9119 times)
burright
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« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2006, 05:58:57 PM »


I'm a big fan of Indiana harness racing and you could do a lot worse than going with Eliot Deaton
training and driving your horses. He had a nice Hoosier meet and always seemed to handle himself
well in driving races. I know the Indiana drivers are porbably a little weak when compared to other
places, but Deaton is as good as any in Indiana.
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2006, 06:53:24 PM »

Burright:

I agree with you. That's exactly why we chose him as the trainer of our Indiana operations.
He did pretty well earlier in the season out at Northfield also.
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off stride
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2006, 07:17:59 PM »

deaton a nd warren will do their owners just fine...just fine..cant wait to wager on todd with some new stock...
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swoodall
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2006, 07:58:38 PM »

Dan P.

Let's be honest with the members of BTW!  Tell every member in bold letters in this thread that Todd Warren could have raced your horses in Indiana if you wanted him too!  He couldn't and you know it!  Even Rucker can't!  Deaton is a fair choice but not for the reasons you guys listed.  Given your choices for trainer, he was your only choice who is allowed in Indiana!

You never addressed my question about your years of pounding the pavement for the little guys in Illinois Harness Racing to now being willing to support the cheaters in Illinois Harness Racing!  Are you telling me your life's work on behalf of the small farm operations and people living and working on the backstretch has been for naught?  I don't give a damn what their current status is with the racing boards; REPEAT OFFENDERS are the #1 CANCER IN ALL OF HARNESS RACING!  The sport will NEVER recover from it's cess pool image as long as new owner keep enabling these guys to stay in the business!

I'm not stupid, I know as we all get older our values can change a little.  This business has a way of breaking down our moral fiber and we begin to compare a trainers suspension history to the worst in the business instead of comparing it to the other 80% who race honestly.  If making enough money to avoid monthly training bills requires climbing into bed with one of the REPEAT OFFENDERS then I would have thought a guy with your track record would have elected to not participate in Illinois Harness Racing rather then compromise his integrity!

Times change and so do people! 

Check out Warren's and Deaton's driving percentage when they are not driving one of their own horses.  They are Del Chupp!

 
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2006, 12:31:45 AM »


Swoodal:

You're right. I have always been a big supporter of the small stables. But you know what, everyone
of those guys are looking for an edge, just like the big stables. Just because a trainer received a fine
or a suspension doesn't define them as a crook or thief. I would say that there are several trainers that
push the envelope to its limits and most others go just half way there. If you believe that there are
horses going postward with nothing in their system, you're living in lala land. I'm not saying it's right,
I'm just saying it's the current nature of the game. If you want to lay blame, lay it at the feet of the
tracks, the IRB, the governor and the state legislature who refuse to provide funds for proper testing.
Either have strickter testing, or loosen it up so everyone can play the game, but you are right that the
current state of affairs is probably ruining the business.
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swoodall
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« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2006, 12:45:12 AM »

Dan P.

I agree with you 100%.  It just seems that after all these years you might be taking the "If you can't beat them , join them" approach.  I really can't blame you for felling that way, I just hate to see someone give in just to try and stay afloat.  Reality is racing is dying a slow death because of it's crooked image.  The little guy can't survive if he doesn't play the game the way his competition is playing it.  That doesn't make it right, it just makes the future look even worse!
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2006, 01:46:36 PM »

My approach as the Managing Partner of Lime Spyder is to employ the trainers I believe
can do the best job for our group. After watching hundreds and hundreds of races, I became impressed
with the abilities of Elliott Deaton and Todd Warren. Once again, it would be difficult to find, in my opinion,
two better trainers who also do very well driving their own stock.

It would be very difficult to find a trainer who consistently has a high training percentage and did not,
at one time, receive some sort of suspension or disciplinary action for a racing violation. Some of these people
have over 1000 starts per season. In my opinion, there isn't a trainer alive who hasn't at one point in time, stretched the limits of racing rules. Does that mean everybody is a crook and a thief? If a person is found to be guilty of an
infraction and they are barred or receive a suspension, so be it. Unfortunately, in our game, any trainer
who gets into a hot streak is assumed to be using something.

As I stated previously, I believe you either have to make everything legal, or have zero tolerance. Until such time
that a resolution can be reached, we will be accusing each other of unethical behaviour until we are blue in the face.
Let the owner and/or trainer who has NEVER pre-raced a horse or has not given a horse ANYTHING 24 hours out,
cast the first stone! 
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emp
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« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2006, 01:49:20 PM »

My approach as the Managing Partner of Lime Spyder is to employ the trainers I believe
can do the best job for our group. After watching hundreds and hundreds of races, I became impressed
with the abilities of Elliott Deaton and Todd Warren. Once again, it would be difficult to find, in my opinion,
two better trainers who also do very well driving their own stock.

It would be very difficult to find a trainer who consistently has a high training percentage and did not,
at one time, receive some sort of suspension or disciplinary action for a racing violation. Some of these people
have over 1000 starts per season. In my opinion, there isn't a trainer alive who hasn't at one point in time, stretched the limits of racing rules. Does that mean everybody is a crook and a thief? If a person is found to be guilty of an
infraction and they are barred or receive a suspension, so be it. Unfortunately, in our game, any trainer
who gets into a hot streak is assumed to be using something.

As I stated previously, I believe you either have to make everything legal, or have zero tolerance. Until such time
that a resolution can be reached, we will be accusing each other of unethical behaviour until we are blue in the face.
Let the owner and/or trainer who has NEVER pre-raced a horse or has not given a horse ANYTHING 24 hours out,
cast the first stone! 

I'd have to agree that sticking to the trainer/driver angle is a good one as it's the underlining basis of the sport from it's origination. These guyes know their horses up and down when they're driving out there as they're with them or around them on a daily basis. It's a great start, but one question, could you post the ARCI records/history for these two trainers for everyone to see?
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2006, 02:41:12 PM »

I'd have to agree that sticking to the trainer/driver angle is a good one as it's the underlining basis of the sport from it's origination. These guyes know their horses up and down when they're driving out there as they're with them or around them on a daily basis. It's a great start, but one question, could you post the ARCI records/history for these two trainers for everyone to see?

I couldn't disagree more.  Although I think it's positive to have a trainer that's a competent enough to drive one to potentially figure him out, etc -- there's a reason that catch drivers have become commonplace in the sport.

Take Todd Warren for example.  His training percentage was an excellent .417 at Hawthorne, however, his catch-driving percentage was .139!  Do you really think you want someone that bats .139 on your horses?

Just my opinion.

Best,
EW
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2006, 02:42:17 PM »

Hey, isn't great you have all these self proclaim experts. maroon.


Kenneth J. Chadwick    
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2006, 03:06:54 PM »

EW

Thanks for making my point. I want Todd Warren and his .417 training percentage and his .417 driving
percentage when he drives his own horses. I also want Elliott Deaton and his .379 training percentage
and his .379 driving percentage when he's driving his own stock. I also am self-assured that the person
who knows my horse best, is sitting behind him in the race.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2006, 03:10:26 PM »

EW

Thanks for making my point. I want Todd Warren and his .417 training percentage and his .417 driving
percentage when he drives his own horses. I also want Elliott Deaton and his .379 training percentage
and his .379 driving percentage when he's driving his own stock. I also am self-assured that the person
who knows my horse best, is sitting behind him in the race.

I don't follow Indiana, so I can't comment on Deaton.

However, if Warren bats .137 as a driver, you have to wonder what his training percentage might be if he had Dave, Tetrick, or Oosting down on his horses.

There's a definite reason that the driver/trainer has fallen out of style.  Still, you have to do (based on your vast experience) what you believe will make money for your fund.  I wish you the best of luck.  There's no question that both Deaton and Warren are excellent trainers.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2006, 03:23:55 PM »

Dan   Why don't you put in M.P.P with his many new positives?
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2006, 03:37:06 PM »

Something seems wrong here. Dan wants Rucker if he's cleared of his problems and he's not a driver/trainer. Then when people start to rag on Dan for wanting Rucker he turns around and says he wants a trainer who also drives his own stock.

   Who does Dan want? Maybe it's Eric Ledford. 
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2006, 05:25:39 PM »

Danny:

C'mon on! What I said is that being a little old-fashioned, I kind of like a trainer who also
drives his own stock. That is not an absolute. As for Ken, I've known him for years and consider
him a friend. He is constantly attacked and people are free to form their own opinions.
We have always got along too. People have jumped all over you too and I consider you a friend,
back from the old days at Aurora in the L Barn. But, I'm a big boy and I always enjoy your
opinions, regardless.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2006, 06:04:28 PM »

Danny:

C'mon on! What I said is that being a little old-fashioned, I kind of like a trainer who also
drives his own stock. That is not an absolute. As for Ken, I've known him for years and consider
him a friend. He is constantly attacked and people are free to form their own opinions.
We have always got along too. People have jumped all over you too and I consider you a friend,
back from the old days at Aurora in the L Barn. But, I'm a big boy and I always enjoy your
opinions, regardless.

Dan
         The only reason people jump all over Rucker is because of all the numerous positives he has had over the years and what he gets away with in Chicago. If he was a good little boy and only had  one or two positives like most trainers do then nobody would be jumping all over him.

          Ken has caused his own troubles, so nobody is picking on little Ken. His training record stands for itself.

         When people jump all over me I defend myself because my training record that I even posted speaks for itself so I can defend something like that to grandstand goofs who know nothing but only repeat or believe rumors.

          Tell Ken to defend his training record if he feels he did nothing wrong and then maybe people won't jump all over him. Guilty people keep their mouth closed and let other people try and get them off the hook. Innocent people like me will defend themselves until the cows come home.

          Did you here of the " trainers responsibility " rule? Failure to guard your horse from ANY foreign substances. I served my time for " trainers responsibility " for the one positive I had so why can't your friend Rucker do the same. What makes him so special that the " trainers responsibility " doesn't apply to him but it does to other trainers?

         Best of luck Dan, you know I have no beef with you.   
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Tsunami
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« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2006, 10:33:11 PM »

Dan P.

I too, was interested about the idea and concept but like alot of the others was drawn off by the choice in trainers. I do like the fact that you`re trying to get more people involved in the industry and the name is pretty cool too.

What`s the old saying you can choose your friends but not your family? 
It`s a fine line when it comes to business decisions, even when family are involved.

Good Racing
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2006, 10:43:03 PM »

ADVICE FROM DAN NANCE !!

    If anyone is thinking about owning horses don't get into any partnerships. Either buy one on your own or don't buy one at all.

    Partnerships cause nothing but problems between people. Sooner or later fights will break out between partners because they will disagree on many issues.

    Don't try and get in cheap with partnerships just to get in. Being in the business is suppose to be fun but the botom line is you're not in it just for the fun. You're also in it to make money, not to lose money.

    JUST MY OPINION   
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Tsunami
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« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2006, 10:52:16 PM »

I AGREE COMPLETELY DAN.

I NEED TO WIN THE LOTTERY  dollar dollar dollar
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2006, 11:00:17 PM »

I AGREE COMPLETELY DAN.

I NEED TO WIN THE LOTTERY  dollar dollar dollar

No you don't. Get yourself 15K together and have Scott claim you a horse and go from there. Ray Howard started out with us with a $5000 investment in Eclipse. From there he went on to make LARGE with " Team Nance ".
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swoodall
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« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2006, 02:16:44 AM »

Ed and Dan P.

I do believe I made the comparison between Deaton and Warren's driving ability when they drive a horse other than their own in my first post. It was not a compliment or a endorsement of their training abilities!  It was ment as an indicator of the need to be holding the tube (or syringe/needles) as the exliar is poor down their horse's throat to reach that .417 training percentage.

Without the pre-race control they are equal to Del(or Merv) Chupp driving in the bike.  If their high training percentage was a true indicator of their horsemanship, you would expect a higher driving percentage when they drive someone elses horse.  They are both WAY OVER BET when not on their own horses.

Indiana Downs starts their harness meet July 7th,  I will be watching for the Lime Spyder Racing Team with Todd Warren leading the trainers standings.  Good Luck getting stalls!
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micha goss
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« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2006, 05:19:50 AM »

My 2 cents about lime spyder using Rucker.

As a prospective owner in the sport, its in the best interest of the owner to select the trainer that he feels has the best chance to get his horses into the winners circle.

Its not the job of Lime to 'police' the sport and weed out who's cheating and who is not. There are racing commissions and whatnut that hold that position. All lime has to do is win horseraces. If they DONT use Rucker and use a guy with a lower winning percentage, they are in the wrong business. They'd need to get out of the horse ownership business and into the private Eye/racing commission/policeman business.

If you are an owner, your job is to win horseraces, not police them. There are people out there who's job is to ensure the integrity of the races, so that part is well taken care of. Lime Spyder's job is to win horse races and the best way to win horse races is to open up the racing program and see if the trainer with the best statistics would be willing to train horses for you. If they say yes, you are on your way. If Rucker happens to be that guy, than he's the right guy for the job.

If Rucker 'forgets' how to train, than you move on to someone who doesn't have amnesia. Its about winning, you need to win to pay the bills.
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Tsunami
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« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2006, 06:57:07 AM »

micha goss

All good points but to what end , a D.O.A. like at Balmoral?

Again, it is a good concept and I wish Frog all the good luck in the world
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njhorseman
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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2006, 09:01:23 AM »

My 2 cents about lime spyder using Rucker.

As a prospective owner in the sport, its in the best interest of the owner to select the trainer that he feels has the best chance to get his horses into the winners circle.

Its not the job of Lime to 'police' the sport and weed out who's cheating and who is not. There are racing commissions and whatnut that hold that position. All lime has to do is win horseraces. If they DONT use Rucker and use a guy with a lower winning percentage, they are in the wrong business. They'd need to get out of the horse ownership business and into the private Eye/racing commission/policeman business.

If you are an owner, your job is to win horseraces, not police them. There are people out there who's job is to ensure the integrity of the races, so that part is well taken care of. Lime Spyder's job is to win horse races and the best way to win horse races is to open up the racing program and see if the trainer with the best statistics would be willing to train horses for you. If they say yes, you are on your way. If Rucker happens to be that guy, than he's the right guy for the job.

If Rucker 'forgets' how to train, than you move on to someone who doesn't have amnesia. Its about winning, you need to win to pay the bills.

I thoroughly disagree. Owners are in the best position to get the crooked trainers out of the game, by refusing to give them horses to train. I'm not suggesting that owners try to divine which successful trainers are cheating, but once a trainer builds a rap sheet as long as his arm like Rucker has, you know he's up to no good, and owners need to boycott those trainers.

If the crooks didn't have horses, the honest trainers would have higher win percentages and be making more money for their owners.
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eljay
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« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2006, 09:17:22 AM »

PAUL IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AS USUAL, BUT I EVEN AGREE WITH DAN ON PARTNERSHIPS.( IF 2 MEN RIDE ONE HORSE , ONE MUST RIDE BEHIND)
 I AM NOT A PROSPECTIVE OWNER, BUT AN OWNER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, AND MY TRAINER HAS SERVED ZERO DAYS OF SUSPENSION IN OVER 25 YEARS OF TRAINING.
NOW THE GOOD NEWS..I HAVE EARNED A PROFIT!!
I CAN CONFIDENTLY BREED A FILLY WHO EARNED A BUNDLE IN THE ORANGE AND BLUE BECAUSE SHE EARNED HER MONEY ON GENETICS AND TRAINING. I HAVE ALSO ENJOYED MY EXPERIENCE ... CAN YOU JUICING BASTARDS SAY YOU ARE ENJOYING YOURSELVES?
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