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Author Topic: Lime Spyder Racing Team LLC  (Read 9048 times)
Frog Dooley
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« on: June 26, 2006, 01:43:54 PM »

Just wanted to let everyone know that the Lime Spyder Racing Team LLC is very close to beginning our operations.
We will most likely begin our initial claiming of horses in Indiana, using Elliott Deaton as our trainer, and in Illinois, using Todd Warren as our trainer. Because of the uncertainty surrounding Ken Rucker, we will hold off with any activity on the East Coast until the Fall, perhaps at Chester Downs in October.

We will be accepting initial members through July 1st at a purchase price of $2,500 per share. After that, the price of shares will be determined by the membership, so there is an advantage to being in the initial group of members. If anyone needs information on our group, simply click on our banner ad on Barn To Wire's Home Page. I want to thank everyone who has expressed interest in our group and for those who have helped in getting the word out.

The bottom line is that this could be a lot of fun with minimal risk considering it is only a one-time investment with
no monthly expenses. If anyone would like to contact me, my e-mail address is limespyder@hotmail.com, or just fire away on this thread and I will certainly respond.

Thanks again,
Dan Poprawski
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Claiming King
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 01:56:58 PM »

Do you feel there is a conflict of interest with managment operating racing stables? If you have a horse that races like Illini Monstermack, do you think he will be put on the Steward's list? How can those who work in racetrack management even consider using Ken Rucker as a trainer?
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 02:16:31 PM »

Claiming King:

That's a very good question. The answer is that I no longer work for Hawthorne. I was hired by Tom Carey III and his father back in 2004 as the Assistant Manager of Harness Racing. It was my job, unlike other Asst. GMs, to put together some new and fresh ideas for the Hawthorne harness meet. We created the Night Of Champions, the various pacing series for the nw to be claimed groups, the Grand Circuit, etc.

When Hawthorne merged with the Sportsman's National Jockey Club, there were a lot of new faces from Sportsman's brought over to Hawthorne. There were some tense moments between the Careys and the Bidwills, and in the end, Thomas Sr, basically retired, and Thomas III was let go. As a result, I, and a few others were also let go in February.

During this past meet I was hired by DAK Productions, who does the Publicity work for Hawthorne to do some media work which included the in-house TV show, the Frog Dooley column and nightly press releases. I did not work for Hawthorne. Tim Carey was the General Manager and Jim Miller was the Asst. GM.

I have known Ken Rucker for several years and consider him a friend. He is an excellent horsemen and I trust him as a trainer for our group. He has had a few problems, but so have a lot of trainers, but I was looking for the best trainers that I could get for Lime Spyder.

Yes, I was part of management at one-time, and you have to admit, working for Hawthorne, in my mind, was a lot
better than working for the other group of owners who always haven't been the most horsemen friendly.

Dan P.
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Claiming King
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 02:29:54 PM »

Dan-

Thanks for the answer.

I didn't realize you weren't part of the Hawthorne management team anymore. As far as which trainer you use, as long as you are paying the bills I guess that's up to you. Anyone close to the game knows no one is racing these things on hay, oats and water. At least not with any success. I guess it comes down to what you can live with as an individual.

As far as Hawthorne management being more "horseman-friendly" is concerned, I suspect we have a philosophical difference with regard to what that term means.  In my mind it's not a free ride for guys like Bruce and Ira. And while running your $100,000 races opposite big purses in Canada may make it easier for the local boys to get a share of the pot, in the long haul I see that as damaging the sport we all love. At least damaging it in our home state. OTB has crippled the long-term health of the sport. Fans aren't made watching races on TV in a smoky dungeon like State and Lake. And they certainly aren't made pretending a six figure race is a special event when it will likely be won by a $20,000 horse trained by Rucker or Homer.
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TK
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 02:36:06 PM »

Way to go Poppy!    Grin
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njhorseman
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 02:47:22 PM »

As far as which trainer you use, as long as you are paying the bills I guess that's up to you. Anyone close to the game knows no one is racing these things on hay, oats and water. At least not with any success. I guess it comes down to what you can live with as an individual.


No one racing on hay, oats and water is a far cry from racing on EPO and having multiple other positives like Rucker and others of his ilk.

I'd recommend that no owner get involved with the Ruckers and Ledfords of the world, unless they want to have a personal hand in the ultimate demise of the sport.

If more owners took a stand against these "rocket fuel of the week" guys, racing would be a lot better off.

Why not start up a new public stable with a pledge of integrity?

Otherwise, if you choose to sleep with the dogs, expect to catch flees.

Maybe it comes from racing in Chicago, where the President of the USTA welcomes Rucker to race at his track, as long as he can fool the public by having a beard listed on the program.
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Claiming King
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 03:15:44 PM »

Well, Paul, that's pretty much the way I feel. But the rules are pretty specific. Nothing on race day. I think it would be hypocritcal of me to flat out condemn someone for using something to beat me when I'm using something to beat Randy Jacobs. That's sort of like driving 80 MPH and thinking it's okay but sneering at the guy who is driving 100. Like I said, it comes down to what you can live with.

Anyway, the industry has big problems in general and Chicago has bigger ones in particular. I think your suggestion of a stable with integrity is admirable but impractical. At least under the current conditions.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 03:20:34 PM »

No one racing on hay, oats and water is a far cry from racing on EPO and having multiple other positives like Rucker and others of his ilk.

I'd recommend that no owner get involved with the Ruckers and Ledfords of the world, unless they want to have a personal hand in the ultimate demise of the sport.

If more owners took a stand against these "rocket fuel of the week" guys, racing would be a lot better off.

Why not start up a new public stable with a pledge of integrity?

Otherwise, if you choose to sleep with the dogs, expect to catch flees.

Maybe it comes from racing in Chicago, where the President of the USTA welcomes Rucker to race at his track, as long as he can fool the public by having a beard listed on the program.

Great post Paul!

    Langley and Doc claim they can't do anything about the " Teflon Trainer " and blame it all on the IRB for letting him get away with what he does.

    I believe that's a cop out story by Landley and Doc because if they wanted to do something about the " Teflon Trainer " and were worried about the integrity of the game with guys like him they would just have the Johnston's tell him he's not welcome at their tracks because as you know they are privately owned. Also, if he did use a beard trainer and was stabled at some farm they could tell the " Teflon Trainer " you are not welcomed on the grounds to gamble or to warm up horses for your beard.

     You're right Paul, Langley and the rest of them are not doing a damn thing about protecting the integrity of the game in Chicago and are only trying to pull the wool over the fans eyes.

     I know Dan P. and if he feels his buddy is an upstanding guy then more power to him. I know that the reason he went to his buddy with his group is because he knows one of the best juicer's in the business when he sees one and knows he will make his group money. BOTTOM LINE..CASE CLOSED!!  
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emp
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 03:27:44 PM »

Why not start up a new public stable with a pledge of integrity?
Ditto. You hit the tiny horseshoe nail on the head precisely this time Paul.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2006, 03:31:43 PM »

Well, Paul, that's pretty much the way I feel. But the rules are pretty specific. Nothing on race day. I think it would be hypocritcal of me to flat out condemn someone for using something to beat me when I'm using something to beat Randy Jacobs. That's sort of like driving 80 MPH and thinking it's okay but sneering at the guy who is driving 100. Like I said, it comes down to what you can live with.

Anyway, the industry has big problems in general and Chicago has bigger ones in particular. I think your suggestion of a stable with integrity is admirable but impractical. At least under the current conditions.

Not racing on hay,oats and water is not the same as "nothing on race day." In fact you can, and most do, treat their horses, up to the allowable time limits for the administration of legal medications. I know any number of trainers who give their horses nothing on race day, but use anything legal that will help their horse up until that time.
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Honest1
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2006, 03:33:46 PM »

I was thinking about throwing in 2500 untill the trainer list was revealed, because who knows when you will be giving that money back.
on positive tests you generally are required to repay the purse money.
on 2nd thought Ill claim one on my own!
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Dan Villeky
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 03:38:42 PM »

Claiming King:


I have known Ken Rucker for several years and consider him a friend. He is an excellent horsemen and I trust him as a trainer for our group. He has had a few problems, but so have a lot of trainers, but I was looking for the best trainers that I could get for Lime Spyder.


Dan P.

Isn't this much like saying "a zebra has a few stripes" or "a hyena has a few fleas".
Friend or not this guy has almost single handidly destroyed the sport at many of it's premier venues. Had it been one positive or even one suspension I think we could have said "OK, it was a valid mistake or misjudgement". This guy is a multiple times, multiple offender who seems to take great delight in "tweaking" the rules and seeing how many more he can get away with. To say you feel he is your trained is saying you enjoy swimming in the same sewer he populates.
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emp
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 03:41:38 PM »

This guy is a multiple times, multiple offender who seems to take great delight in "tweaking" the rules and seeing how many more he can get away with.

http://www.horsemansvoice.com/KennethRucker-1.rtf
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Claiming King
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 03:42:35 PM »

But Paul, you're equivocating. You seem to be saying it's okay to break the rules, but only to a certain point. And while I find guys like Rucker and Ledford reprehensible and a detriment to the health of the industry, I have to say that's quite a hypocritical stance. Who decides what's enough? You and your friends who are getting beat by Rucker? Or maybe some farmer from Indiana who brings his nice mare to the city and races her cold only to lose to one of you?

When you say "allowable time limits" you're spliiting hairs. Just because a medication clears a horse's system doesn't mean the spirit of the rules hasn't been broken. If that's the case, Ledford was well within the rules, as he never had a positive.

It sounds to me like you only want the rules broken up to the point where you'd feel uncomfortable breaking them.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 03:43:44 PM »

But Paul, you're equivocating. You seem to be saying it's okay to break the rules, but only to a certain point. And while I find guys like Rucker and Ledford reprehensible and a detriment to the health of the industry, I have to say that's quite a hypocritical stance. Who decides what's enough? You and your friends who are getting beat by Rucker? Or maybe some farmer from Indiana who brings his nice mare to the city and races her cold only to lose to one of you?

When you say "allowable time limits" you're spliiting hairs. Just because a medication clears a horse's system doesn't mean the spirit of the rules hasn't been broken. If that's the case, Ledford was well within the rules, as he never had a positive.

It sounds to me like you only want the rules broken up to the point where you'd feel uncomfortable breaking them.

How does a horsemen appling a medication up to the allowable time break ANY rules?

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2006, 03:45:26 PM »

But Paul, you're equivocating. You seem to be saying it's okay to break the rules, but only to a certain point. And while I find guys like Rucker and Ledford reprehensible and a detriment to the health of the industry, I have to say that's quite a hypocritical stance. Who decides what's enough? You and your friends who are getting beat by Rucker? Or maybe some farmer from Indiana who brings his nice mare to the city and races her cold only to lose to one of you?

When you say "allowable time limits" you're spliiting hairs. Just because a medication clears a horse's system doesn't mean the spirit of the rules hasn't been broken. If that's the case, Ledford was well within the rules, as he never had a positive.

It sounds to me like you only want the rules broken up to the point where you'd feel uncomfortable breaking them.

No...you're misinterpreting what I said. By "allowable time limit" I'm talking about allowable time limit to administer...not whether you can detect it or not.

Ledford's man got caught with plenty of illegal meds...no positive was needed.
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Claiming King
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2006, 03:48:39 PM »

The rules in every state as far as I know are pretty explicit about no medication (other than state-controlled bute or lasix) on race day. The "allowable time limit" is something your vet will explain to you when he hits 'em early enough for the stuff not to show up on a test. Is that breaking the rules? Is a pre-race breaking the rules? I guess maybe only when Rucker does it better than you. I'm being put in the untenable position of defending a guy I think is a scumbag. But the truth is most people take what they can get.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2006, 03:50:44 PM »

The rules in every state as far as I know are pretty explicit about no medication (other than state-controlled bute or lasix) on race day. The "allowable time limit" is something your vet will explain to you when he hits 'em early enough for the stuff not to show up on a test. Is that breaking the rules? Is a pre-race breaking the rules? I guess maybe only when Rucker does it better than you. I'm being put in the untenable position of defending a guy I think is a scumbag. But the truth is most people take what they can get.

I think you are severely misunderstanding Paul, but I'll let him explain it to you, because he'll do better than I.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2006, 03:51:26 PM »

The rules in every state as far as I know are pretty explicit about no medication (other than state-controlled bute or lasix) on race day. The "allowable time limit" is something your vet will explain to you when he hits 'em early enough for the stuff not to show up on a test. Is that breaking the rules? Is a pre-race breaking the rules? I guess maybe only when Rucker does it better than you. I'm being put in the untenable position of defending a guy I think is a scumbag. But the truth is most people take what they can get.

That's right nothing on race day, but you can do plenty of things legally up until that point...and it's legal and far from racing on only "hay, oats and water."
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njhorseman
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2006, 03:52:46 PM »

I think you are severely misunderstanding Paul, but I'll let him explain it to you, because he'll do better than I.

Best,
EW

You're correct that he's misunderstanding me, but maybe you will do a better job of explaining it, because I can't seem to get my point across.  Cheesy
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DLeestable
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2006, 03:58:00 PM »

Paul,

  Maybe you can explain why everyone thinks that pre-racing is so bad for the sport but several states and Canada allow several types of "pre-race" to be used right on race day, and administer it in the paddock for you. Tony is in Canada and I can't believe what they allow and will do for you right in the paddock on race night.  By the way...lasix is $55.00 a shot!! Ouch....oh yeah, want Clot All just ask...they will give it right along with the lasix.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2006, 04:03:29 PM »

You're correct that he's misunderstanding me, but maybe you will do a better job of explaining it, because I can't seem to get my point across.  Cheesy

Paul

         Edward can't explain jackshit about pre-racing or any rules for that matter. He doesn't know one thing about training a horse or pre-racing one. All he can do is act like he's a know it all on this forum and try and make people think he knows the game better then anyone when the fact is all he knows how to do is read charts and watch replays. As a matter of fact he doesn't even know what he looking at when he is watching replays. I hope he never becomes a steward because then the horseman will be in big trouble with this clown watching over things.

         This school boy is starting to make me sick with his self-rightous bullshit he trys to spew to someone like me who has been through it all and knows what the hell is going on. This punk doesn't know 1/10th what I know about the business and about betting and about handicapping a race. He's a blowhard who belongs at trackchampion with his fraud buddy Tom Wendt.  
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Frog Dooley
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2006, 04:11:21 PM »


I didn't expect to turn this into a Ken Rucker thread, but I realize that as long as he is one of the trainers that Lime Spyder planned on using, this is open territory. The bottom line, as I stated in my original post, is that we won't be using Ken Rucker as long as his status is in limbo. We will be using Elliott Deaton in Indiana and Todd Warren in Illinois,
and perhaps Rucker would come into play later in the year when his status clears up.

I will certainly admit that I lost several potential investors because of the Rucker situation, but I am not going to abandon the guy because you are still innocent before your proven guilty. With that being said, we will be going with Deaton and Warren and see where that takes us. With a little luck, we should be claiming our first horse in the next couple of weeks.
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FreeLegged
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2006, 04:18:53 PM »

I have known Ken Rucker for several years and consider him a friend. He has had a few problems
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2006, 04:23:23 PM »

I didn't expect to turn this into a Ken Rucker thread, but I realize that as long as he is one of the trainers that Lime Spyder planned on using, this is open territory. The bottom line, as I stated in my original post, is that we won't be using Ken Rucker as long as his status is in limbo. We will be using Elliott Deaton in Indiana and Todd Warren in Illinois,
and perhaps Rucker would come into play later in the year when his status clears up.

I will certainly admit that I lost several potential investors because of the Rucker situation, but I am not going to abandon the guy because you are still innocent before your proven guilty. With that being said, we will be going with Deaton and Warren and see where that takes us. With a little luck, we should be claiming our first horse in the next couple of weeks.

I don't know anything about this Deaton guy but isn't Warren also known as a juiceman and wasn't he told not to come to Hoosier because they feel that way?

    Rucker, Warren, I get the feeling here that you like to employ guys that you feel can light one up, Dan. I know you know how the game is played so I guess I can't blame you for wanting to go with guys like them. 
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