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Author Topic: News on Jamie Ness  (Read 2099 times)
Mary Ann
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« on: March 26, 2013, 11:11:49 PM »

Just got this news about Ness from the Paulick Report:

"Tampa Bay Downs leading trainer Jamie Ness has been fined $2,000 and horses from his stable entered for the next 30 days at the Tampa-area track are required to be under 24-hour pre-race security watch after the Ness runner Awesome Mich tested over the 37.0 total carbon dioxide threshold on March 17. Awesome Mich finished fifth as the 11-10 favorite in a $12,500 claiming race that day.
 
TCO2 testing falls under Tampa Bay Downs "house rules," since Florida's virtually non-existent regulatory agency, the Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering, has no guidelines for permitted levels or testing of TCO2. Overages of TCO2, which some horsemen claim can be caused by a number of factors, were commonly called "milkshakes" prior to testing, when tubing a horse with a water/baking soda solution reduced lactic acid buildup and prevented muscle fatigue."
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 10:43:41 AM »

...Ness runner Awesome Mich tested over the 37.0 total carbon dioxide threshold on March 17. Awesome Mich finished fifth as the 11-10 favorite in a $12,500 claiming race that day.

Awesome [stuff], those "milkshakes", moving underlaid favorites all the way up to 5th place & a whopping $155 purse stipend!

(I wonder what the threshold is for "Egg On Face" for the upper level management of the whole testing consortium. What a f'n joke. )
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beobob
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 11:10:49 AM »

Awesome [stuff], those "milkshakes", moving underlaid favorites all the way up to 5th place & a whopping $155 purse stipend!

He must not be a very competent cheater.
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Red Ketcher
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 12:50:04 PM »

 

   Or may be very competent at it.   2012 National  trainer wins leader, and trains for National owner wins leader.   

   So maybe will eventually have to toss them in the books with Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire


   (But, for now , gonna go down to Dairy Queen and improve my stamina)
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 01:24:24 PM »

 

   Or may be very competent at it.   2012 National  trainer wins leader, and trains for National owner wins leader.   

   So maybe will eventually have to toss them in the books with Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire

If all they can find on Ness -- after YEARS of scrutiny -- is one l'il ol' millimole of TCO2 over the limit...I think you and all the other horsemen are going to have to suck it up and admit that Ness is just a better trainer than all of you.

His owners aren't exactly bluebloods, and Ness is winning with 90%+ claiming stock. With the sheer number of starters this guy has, if he is dirty they should have found SOMETHING by now; a fraction of a particle of a whiff of baking soda? Ain't shit.
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mottoman
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 01:35:51 PM »

I agree with you that ain't shit!  But, I do believe he uses something that is not yet detectible.  Yes it may be speculation but it doesn't take a genius to figure out he is not that much better a trainer than everyone else.  You can only do so much to say a 5 year old bottlom level claimer.
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brivolta
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »

I understand the skepticism regarding Ness and am not dismissing it. But let's also remember that his owners invest much more money in care for their horses than any other. Their off track facilities are second to none and they have deep pockets and aren't afraid to dip into them. Sometimes you just have to give people credit for dedicating resources that others aren't willing and/or able to dedicate.
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beobob
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 01:50:14 PM »

I understand the skepticism regarding Ness and am not dismissing it. But let's also remember that his owners invest much more money in care for their horses than any other. Their off track facilities are second to none and they have deep pockets and aren't afraid to dip into them. Sometimes you just have to give people credit for dedicating resources that others aren't willing and/or able to dedicate.

Additionally, being able to run horses where they can win rather than where their owners think they belong adds 10-20% to his total.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 01:57:44 PM »

I agree with you that ain't shit!  But, I do believe he uses something that is not yet detectible.  Yes it may be speculation but it doesn't take a genius to figure out he is not that much better a trainer than everyone else.  You can only do so much to say a 5 year old bottlom level claimer.

It's the ignorance inherent is such statements as:

* "[Ness] is not that much better a trainer than everyone else" (how do you know this?), and

* "you can only do so much with a 5 year old bottom level claimer" (who is "you"? You? Are you a trainer, mottoman?)

...that leads to the belief that he is using something "undetectable".

Get this through your X-Files addled brains, people: There is no such thing as something "undetectable"!

Unidentifiable? Perhaps, and only for a little while, until the white coats crack it, but IF IT HAS MASS, IT IS DETECTABLE.
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brivolta
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »

Additionally, being able to run horses where they can win rather than where their owners think they belong adds 10-20% to his total.

Very true. Becker/Stiritz have a high winning percentage and they have many of the same qualities that Midwest has...especially what you mention above.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 02:38:39 PM »


His owners aren't exactly bluebloods...

Phipps, Whitney, Galbreath... Papiese?  Wink
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mottoman
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 05:43:14 PM »

I think horse voice lives in fantasy island!  What makes you believe he is so much better than 95% of the trainers in the world?  ARE YOU A TRAINER!!!  LOL  He's a well known JUICER.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 01:14:15 AM »

What makes you believe he is so much better than 95% of the trainers in the world?

Oh, I don't know...how about WIN PERCENTAGE? How many trainers with more than a few token starts have a higher strike rate than Ness?

You are right about one thing: Ness isn't better than 95% of the trainers out there; it's more like 99%.

 
He's a well known JUICER.

Maybe when you and the other gossip gals get together at the back bar at AP and start blaming those "stiffing jockeys" and "juice trainers" for your losses at the racetrack, your nonsense slides by without refute...but not here.

If Ness is such a "well known juicer", then you should be able to easily recite his list of meds positives, and specifically, which ones were simple overages of legal meds, and which were performance-enhancing. So tell us, Mr. Knowledgeable: how many positives does Ness have, out of how many starters, over how many years?

(Now that you've been asked for specifics, over and above the usual flotsam and effluvia you spew, I suppose we won't be seeing you back here for a while, motto, so...Happy Easter...and Memorial Day...and Independence Day...and... Roll Eyes )
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mottoman
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 08:09:40 AM »

Testing facilities are months if not years behind the development companies.  Ness is in the top one percent of all trainers in the world??  LOL  I am shocked all the rich owners don't know this and give him their Blue Bloods!   
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brivolta
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 08:51:44 AM »

Testing facilities are months if not years behind the development companies.  Ness is in the top one percent of all trainers in the world??  LOL  I am shocked all the rich owners don't know this and give him their Blue Bloods!   

Aside from the other things we have already mentioned in this thread, don't forget that most of what Midwest does is claim horses often times runs them back at levels they have proven to be successful. It's not like they're taking 5K claimers and running them in allowance company and winning by a pole.

And in the words of the immortal Kelis:

My milk shake brings all the boys to the yard,
And there like,
Its better than yours,
Damn right its better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge
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beobob
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 09:01:49 AM »

Right you are, Brivolta.  Ness (and Midwest) get a lot of runners claimed, that means they are placing them aggressively. You would expect them to win a bunch.

Your team better watch out, one more successful claim and they'll be accusing you of juicing.
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brivolta
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 09:03:38 AM »

Right you are, Brivolta.  Ness (and Midwest) get a lot of runners claimed, that means they are placing them aggressively. You would expect them to win a bunch.

Your team better watch out, one more successful claim and they'll be accusing you of juicing.

Haha!
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NJGUY
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 09:08:06 AM »

Jamie Ness formula reminds me a lot of the Scott Lake formula a few
years back.  When Lake would claim anything and run them where
he thought they could win.  Do you remember when Lake had horses
in every race of the claiming crown?  They just kept turning over dollars.
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HarnessFanDE
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 09:22:12 AM »

Ness definitely places his horses aggressively but to say thats the reason for his success is pretty far fetched.....He has taken quite a few horses up the ladder and isn't Calabrese like in claiming them for 25k and running them back for 5k.....He does lose horses but he also gets away with jamming because of his record......Many are afraid (and rightfully so) to claim from him.....He uses his success to his advantage as he should......He's a mere mortal at Laurel, no real explanation for that, except maybe different testing......I will say one thing for him......When he takes one back (which doesn't happen too often).....Go to the windows.....
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SHOWTIME!!!
beobob
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 09:25:35 AM »

Jamie Ness formula reminds me a lot of the Scott Lake formula a few
years back.  When Lake would claim anything and run them where
he thought they could win.  Do you remember when Lake had horses
in every race of the claiming crown?  They just kept turning over dollars.

That's what Calabrese did at Arlington.  He didn't care if he lost the horse, he wanted the win.  Claim for 15, run back at 12.5.  There were a lot of shakes when he ran them.  There was also a lot of 5 horse fields and 3-5 winners.  Not many are sad he's gone.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2013, 11:12:14 AM »

Testing facilities are months if not years behind the development companies.

Not nearly that much behind anymore. And once the labs start freezing samples for future testing and re-testing against newly identified substances, the "illegal juice" game will be all but over. Your information / attitude on this stuff is AT LEAST 10 years out of date. 

Ness is in the top one percent of all trainers in the world??  LOL  I am shocked all the rich owners don't know this and give him their Blue Bloods!   

Bill Mott started out claiming and training busted out platers that no one else could win with; I suppose he had to listen to idiots claiming he was "juicing" everything he ran, too.

Ness doesn't run a "blueblood" operation; it's a claiming operation, and it depends on volume and proper placement of horses, in order to maximize earnings per start across the whole operation. He is "race earnings" driven, whereas the bluebloods are not be so motivated by winning TODAY's race as they are the RIGHT race(s), for future issues like breeding and syndication. To not acknowledge this difference is a fairly obvious admission that you don't understand this game at all, at least, not at the training and ownership level.

Finally the idea of measuring trainer ranking against the overall quality of his horseflesh is just plain stupid. Horse flesh is worth about 59 cents a pound, until it starts winning -- I don't give a rat's ass who his mammy and pappy is. (Remember that real nice "blueblood", The Green Monkey? $16 million dollars, and ran like a hog.)

Once again, mottoman, you've taken the rubbish you have heard from JF and other grandstand goofs, assembled that stuff in your head, and blurted it out as if it were fact. Do yourself a favor and forget that nonsense, then answer this question:

If you suddenly came into possession of 10 - 20 lower-level claimers (say, average of about $10K apiece, and all in good racing shape), you didn't have to pay for them but you do have to feed them and pay their trainer's day rates (and therefore these horses MUST win purse money, SOON, or you can't feed them for long)...tell us, who are the top 10 trainers on your list that you would ask to train for you?

(And remember -- you can't bother with the Pletchers and Bafferts and Motts of the "blueblood" world you are so enamored with, simply because they will laugh in your face...IF they will even look your way for a minute...).
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2013, 11:21:38 AM »

I love threads in which people argue carefully and logically on either side of the question as to whether trainer X is or isn't gassing, and then one poster, aflame with the Certainty Of The Ignorant, pops in to bleat "Ha HAh hes a Gass-maN and your a Stoopit!!! laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy"

For the record, Ness has been decidedly less dominant at Aqueduct, even during the talent-starved inner-dirt meet.  At Gulfie, even at a meet awash in 6 claimers and M12 races, he's won 20%, which is good, but certainly not on par with his records at the B tracks.



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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2013, 12:08:54 PM »

For the record, Ness has been decidedly less dominant at Aqueduct, even during the talent-starved inner-dirt meet.  At Gulfie, even at a meet awash in 6 claimers and M12 races, he's won 20%, which is good, but certainly not on par with his records at the B tracks.

Each of these locations have different thresholds and tolerances for LEGAL medications, whether they are allowable on race day or not.

If this is what mottoman (and others who regularly make the allegation) means when saying that a guy is a "juicer", then I can't help them. They:

a) can't make the distinction between pushing the limits on what is legal (purely acceptable), and true "juicing", and / or,

b) are fighting a different battle: the morally upright but ridiculously unrealistic call for a return to "hay, oats, and water".

(Hell, if the latter ever happens, my first call is to Jack Van Berg -- the only reason I can think of for a guy to hang around the game for ~30 years too long, on a whopping 5 wins a year, is that he is a True Believer that the game will one day return to it's Pristine State. Whenever that was...    dunno )
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 12:13:16 PM by HorseVoice » Report to moderator   Logged
Wink Martingale
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »

On the harness racing side, certain known juicers win at average rates at the A tracks but tear up the B tracks, especially in Soviet Canuckistan.  With Ness, these circumstances are ambiguous.  Clearly, he is NOT winning in NY at the rates that Rudy Rodriguez (now under suspension, I note) and David Jacobson do.

Rudy handed off his stable to his brother Gustavo, and the horses are still winning.  Jacobson used to be a near-autotoss back in the 70s and early 80s, but he wins a lot with jammed-down horses; to his credit, horses do get claimed from him, and do not routinely collapse in the hands of other trainers.
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

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HarnessFanDE
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 01:32:45 PM »

Ness' percentage in NY is darn good when you count the pieces he has claimed in NY to race in NY.....The things he shipped from Delaware up there werent good enough and hurt his percentage.....In fact he has a freshie in tomorrow (Torment) that he claimed out of his last start that I think will gallop......But 5-1 might be a pipe dream
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SHOWTIME!!!
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