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Author Topic: Arlington - Stall Rent, Take It or Leave It  (Read 1569 times)
Mary Ann
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2013, 10:48:47 PM »

Dan, I hope you didn't think I was picking on you. The horsemen are an important factor in Arlington's success and it's about time CDI recognizes it. The horsemen are struggling to be profitable too, and they should be profitable, and what Arlington is doing now with this stall rent looks absolutely ridiculous and petty. There's got to be a better way to ensure Arlington, its shareholders and the horsemen are all successful as far as the profits go. Right now, it looks very lopsided with a lot of resentment.
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2013, 11:23:16 PM »

Dan, I hope you didn't think I was picking on you. The horsemen are an important factor in Arlington's success and it's about time CDI recognizes it. The horsemen are struggling to be profitable too, and they should be profitable, and what Arlington is doing now with this stall rent looks absolutely ridiculous and petty. There's got to be a better way to ensure Arlington, its shareholders and the horsemen are all successful as far as the profits go. Right now, it looks very lopsided with a lot of resentment.

No problem, I have fun with my CDI stock ownership thing.  It is sort of a running joke on this board and usually brings out Terry or HV.  Although there is a lot of truth in what I said.  You have to take care of your stockholders first.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2013, 08:09:21 AM »

No problem, I have fun with my CDI stock ownership thing.  It is sort of a running joke on this board and usually brings out Terry or HV.  Although there is a lot of truth in what I said.  You have to take care of your stockholders first.

There's a fine line between destroying your business and "taking care of your stockholders".

If Mr. D and CDI don't need the horsemen as valued partners to put on the racing at AP, they should go out and buy their own 1400 horses to run around that track.
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"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2013, 10:13:05 AM »

Thère are other issues with the AP contract offer beside the stall rent.  How about taking the guarenteed bottom purse of $11,500, and changing the wording to $7500.
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2013, 10:22:01 AM »

If RLD let a bunch of his friends have free stalls in the past while never racing at AP, that was always his prerogative. (I suppose it still is; I'm struggling with the idea of RLD having "a bunch of friends", that's all.  Cheesy )

For whatever reason, those days are over.

Questions for you, mild-mannered BTW forum reader / contributors:

1. When you stay at a friend's house for a few days or a week, do you just freeload and get waited on hand and foot?

I doubt it. If you have any sort of upbringing at all, you help out...you wash dishes, walk the family dog, buy a few bags of groceries, maybe leave a card with a nice gift certificate for a new restaurant your host has been meaning to try. In other words, you know nothing is really free.

2. When you go on vacation and have to kennel your house pets...is that free?

Of course not.

So then...how is it that some of you have become horsemen and somehow forgotten the message from points #1 and #2 above.

I'm sorry, I just get my hands around the whole "free stalls" thing. The horsemen would absolutely *hate* me if I ran a racetrack, I guess, because I would charge stall rent UP FRONT, then rebate charges when horses actually run.

And I don't really care how it's been done for the last 1000 years, so please don't go there -- it's a stale and irrelevant argument.

Perhaps racetracks would be less inclined to soak the racegoers for parking, admissions, etc., if they got fair dinkum from the horsemen...or maybe RLD will just go buy some more CDI stock. Who knows?  dunno
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2013, 10:28:12 AM »

I think that AP believes that they will get slots this year and that racing will be relegated to the back burner. As evidenced by their attitude toward racing in general, horsemen (contractual issues), fans (price increases) and bettors (Twin Spires interface, points). Couple those with DD's large stock purchases.
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beobob
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« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2013, 11:24:44 AM »

Thère are other issues with the AP contract offer beside the stall rent.  How about taking the guarenteed bottom purse of $11,500, and changing the wording to $7500.

I don't know what the acceptable bottom number is. Even at $11,500 I dont see how it is economically feasible to run at the bottom considering the 30K cost to keep a horse in training - 5 wins won't even cover that.  If lowering the bottom results in increasing purses among higher valued horses, that might not be such a bad thing. 
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beobob
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« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2013, 11:50:18 AM »


For whatever reason, those days are over.

I'm sorry, I just get my hands around the whole "free stalls" thing. The horsemen would absolutely *hate* me if I ran a racetrack, I guess, because I would charge stall rent UP FRONT, then rebate charges when horses actually run.

And I don't really care how it's been done for the last 1000 years, so please don't go there -- it's a stale and irrelevant argument.


I still don't know why this is such a contentious issue.  The arguments against it that I've heard are that we've never done this before and that AP will use this to punish some and not others.  The first argument is ridiculous - racing has changed. As far as the subjective phrasing of the rule as proposed, that's easy - make it objective.  HAW should do the same thing. The times, they are a' changing.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 12:44:34 PM »

1. When you stay at a friend's house for a few days or a week, do you just freeload and get waited on hand and foot?

When you as a businessman travel to an out-of-state business to help them make money, do you expect to pay for your own hotel room?
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« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2013, 12:49:33 PM »

When you as a businessman travel to an out-of-state business to help them make money, do you expect to pay for your own hotel room?

I certainly do not. But if that same businessman is not doing anything to further the business and is staying somewhere for reasons that have nothing to do with the company, do you expect him to pay for his own room?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:03:53 PM by beobob » Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2013, 12:50:52 PM »

I still don't know why this is such a contentious issue.  The arguments against it that I've heard are that we've never done this before and that AP will use this to punish some and not others.  The first argument is ridiculous - racing has changed.

Only in Illinois, and only at Arlington, apparently. Nationally, racetracks that WANT horsemen to come to their track so there will be horses to put on the track to supply what that track is allegedly selling, horse races, do NOT charge stall rent during a live meet. No one. No where. How is it that Arlington is the only track in North America that has to charge stall rent to make it?

Now, if what you're actually selling is the beauty of your track as a local picnic destination, and high-priced concessions to the picnic goers, and racing be damned, I guess maybe. Might as well try to gouge the live horsemen you're grudgingly putting up with in order to retain your simulcast dates, as well.

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As far as the subjective phrasing of the rule as proposed, that's easy - make it objective.

That would defeat the entire purpose - to make sure AP management shows who's the boss.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2013, 01:09:55 PM »

I certainly do. But if that same businessman is not doing anything to further the business and is staying somewhere for reasons that have nothing to do with the company, do you expect him to pay for his own room?

That's quite a big IF, with no determining criteria specified.  

Bigger fields lead to bigger wagering, as AP itself told us at the beginning of 2011 when they came up with the field-sized based purse plan that drove off Calabrese. Studies (So. Cal., not Illinois) show that each incremental horse in a race increases handle by a total of $10,000. So for Illinois let's say $8,000.

Let's say trainer X brings 10 horses and runs 5 of them during the month. Then this guy has increased monthly live handle $40,000 by racing his five horses, and the track has made 7.5% of that in takeout, or $3,000 off this guy's horses. But according to the vague rules laid out in these stall apps, they could still charge him rent, because he didn't average one start per stall.

You tell me, beobob, how much does it cost AP to maintain 10 stalls for one month? More, or less than $3,000?

(7.5% if the handle was all live. Not so much in reality.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:22:44 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2013, 01:11:51 PM »

When you as a businessman travel to an out-of-state business to help them make money, do you expect to pay for your own hotel room?

Funny you should mention this.

My customers used to pay my T&E back in the day, but for the last 8 or 9 years -- no. Everybody wants something for nothing.

So I simply factor it into my pricing.
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« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2013, 01:16:20 PM »

That's quite a big IF, with no determining criteria specified. 

Bigger fields lead to bigger wagering, as AP itself told us at the beginning of 2011 when they came up with the field-sized based purse plan that drove off Calabrese. Studies (So. Cal., not Illinois) show that each incremental horse in a race increases handle by a total of $10,000. So for Illinois let's say $8,000.

Let's say trainer X brings 10 horses and runs 5 of them during the month. Then this guy has increased monthly live handle $40,000 by racing his five horses, and the track has made 7.5% of that in takeout, or $3,000 off this guy's horses. But according to the vague rules laid out in these stall apps, they could still charge him rent, because he didn't average one start per stall.

I think, if I have 10 head and will run 5 times a month, I need to be savvy enough to know the above numbers and cut my own deal.

*Everything* is negotiable.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2013, 01:18:19 PM »

AP has a response in which it says guidelines were issued, but of course there's no link to any such guidelines.

It also says a $100 penalty to get a horse back on track "will be imposed on any trainer whose horse is stabled at Arlington and races at other tracks while the same races are offered at Arlington." Whatever that means. If they offered some condition 3 books ago?

Right. They're going to charge that to their favorites, and the out of state guys like Stidham et al.

http://www.arlingtonpark.com/node/18977
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:20:49 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2013, 01:19:15 PM »

Funny you should mention this.

My customers used to pay my T&E back in the day, but for the last 8 or 9 years -- no. Everybody wants something for nothing.

So I simply factor it into my pricing.

So the horsemen should demand higher purses from AP.
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« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2013, 01:24:12 PM »

Again we move off the issue.  AP isn't asking for stall rent, they are asking for a commitment for a minimum number of runners based upon the stalls allocated. If that number isn't hit there will be a penalty.  Run your horses and you stay free. As it is currently worded AP's propsosal is unacceptable, but the intent is reasonable.  Reasonable people can come up with objective standards that we all can live with.
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2013, 01:32:52 PM »

So the horsemen should demand higher purses from AP.

They can demand higher purses all they want.

Don't turn complex negotiation issues into single issue politics: I can "negotiate" for travel by private jet, if I want to waste time, but I'd rather spend time on items where I am more likely to get some movement.

Beobob is right: this is not a "stall rent" issue. To my way of thinking, it's much more like a Service Level Agreement, where both parties need to spell out and agree to a certain level of performance.

And it's a pretty simple decision for the local horsemen: not really intending to run at AP? Don't stall there (note sly double entendre), or pay for the privilege.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2013, 01:33:23 PM »

Again we move off the issue.  AP isn't asking for stall rent, they are asking for a commitment for a minimum number of runners based upon the stalls allocated. If that number isn't hit there will be a penalty.  Run your horses and you stay free. As it is currently worded AP's propsosal is unacceptable, but the intent is reasonable.  Reasonable people can come up with objective standards that we all can live with.

The stated intent.

Look, if there were really that many horsemen and horses out there dying to run at AP (at least of the caliber Dick D. thinks he deserves at his track), they would have culled the non-runners out years ago by simply denying them stalls up front like they have always had the power to do, and still have, and AP would the national leader in field size year in and year out. But there aren't, and AP isn't. This is a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. The mythical armada of ready-to-run horses dying to get on the AP backside does not exist, and will be in even shorter supply this summer due to increased purses at Canterbury and Eilis. This is simply an excuse to have new means to punish guys they don't like.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2013, 01:35:45 PM »

They can demand higher purses all they want.

Don't turn complex negotiation issues into single issue politics: I can "negotiate" for travel by private jet, if I want to waste time, but I'd rather spend time on items where I am more likely to get some movement.

doh

I was making the point that you can factor increased costs into the rate you charge, but horsemen have no such recourse.
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« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2013, 02:02:58 PM »

doh

I was making the point that you can factor increased costs into the rate you charge, but horsemen have no such recourse.

But there is no increased cost if you run your horse(s).
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« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2013, 02:08:46 PM »

doh

I was making the point that you can factor increased costs into the rate you charge, but horsemen have no such recourse.

Well, then, you made a terrible point.   ( doh right back at ya.)

Horsemen CAN INDEED address the potential increased costs AP is suggesting: don't try to stable at AP for free, unless you intend to run there and actively participate in their racing program.

And if, as you have suggested, AP is only doing this to spank horsemen they don't like, well, those horsemen have a decision to make, don't they?

I think you are making this out to be way more difficult than it is, frankly: AP has shown their hand; time for the horsemen to stop bi+ching and whining, and make their move(s).

It's quite possible the whole thing could blow up in AP's face. That would be intriguing, wouldn't it?  sneaky
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2013, 02:59:18 PM »

But there is no increased cost if you run your horse(s).

As long as you have nothing but aged $5k "dirt" claimers in your barn that don't have too many physical problems, you should be in great shape then.

But if you have young horses, or horses coming back from injury, or turf horses, or horses whose class doesn't come up real often (like good ones), or horses that don't turn around in 3 weeks, they're telling you "stay away unless you want to chance getting hit with a stall charge".
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2013, 03:01:44 PM »

And if, as you have suggested, AP is only doing this to spank horsemen they don't like, well, those horsemen have a decision to make, don't they?

What they're trying to do is force the entire ITHA to make a decision on new officers, ones that will roll over and put their butts in the air for a good plooking, courtesy of AP. Ones that won't ask for a fair share of ADW revenues, or slots revenues, or online gaming revenues, for instance, and will be happy to race for peanuts as AP and CDI get rich simply because they hold a "racing" license.

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It's quite possible the whole thing could blow up in AP's face. That would be intriguing, wouldn't it?

One could only hope.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:05:38 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2013, 03:08:59 PM »

As long as you have nothing but aged $5k "dirt" claimers in your barn that don't have too many physical problems, you should be in great shape then.

But if you have young horses, or horses coming back from injury, or turf horses, or horses whose class doesn't come up real often (like good ones), or horses that don't turn around in 3 weeks, they're telling you "stay away unless you want to chance getting hit with a stall charge".

That means you don't have much faith in the negotiating skills of the ITHA. 
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