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Author Topic: Tips/advice for conspiracy theorists  (Read 1639 times)
VicD
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 08:38:10 AM »

This is a VERY interesting discussion. What I think most people or gamblers just dont understand is that what many consider "juicing" just isnt. A "level playing field" isnt what you would all want to believe, as most people believe that the "old timers" didnt do those things....PUH-LEASE. Not with standing, is the current thought process that only those dominant are "juicing". Most ANYONE who has enough head to have a decent number of starts, does something, which would be considered "juicing" to what it is so many of you call "cheating". Deluding yourselves into this "hay & oats" garbage just isnt reality. Isnt now, wasnt then. The horse is still the single biggest factor in all this. The fact that people are just better than other really seems to piss a lot of people off. Stuff happens.

There is a fairly long list of guys each week at USTA and in NJ of guys who aren't "juicing".
Lots of Clenbueterol violations I've seen, but that's not juicing either. Lidocaine? Nope? Flunixin? Not a chance.
I won't even mention EPO and the snake venom stuff, because venom comes from a snake and technically isn't a drug.
You try to compare what we have today with "old timers" who you infer did similar things?
You are a funny guy, Mel.
A handful of cayenne pepper on a horses nuts isn't quite the same as a drug that takes 3 years to develop a test for.
Oh, did I forget to mention the scumbags who tube their horses?
Baking soda, while natural (therefore not "Juicing" by your standards), is not found in a horses' system naturally. But when it gets there, harsh penalties should be meted out..
I think you know a great deal about harness racing, Mel. And yes, the guys from yesteryear were not angels, far from it.
But to compare some of them to these talentless, cheating, scumbag chemists, who have ZERO concern for the well being of their horses, and would toss them into a scrap heap (but only AFTER cashing a ticket), is just plain wrong.
Why doesn't every barn that has "a decent number of head" win at 30%? They don't.
"The fact that some people are better than other really seems to piss a lot of people off."
Sounds a lot like:
"All men are created equal, and some, more equal than others."
Keep on thinking that the big outfits are winning races with stuff they can buy at a local CVS, like aspirin.
And every horse that has an overage of TCO2 had it done by a disgruntled groom, a $300 per week guy who could actually blow up a multimillion dollar operation singlehandedly.
The sport stands where it is today NOT from all of the honesty and integrity it has. If people think it's bad, it's bad...
Not to beat this to death, but where is Ron's dad these days, and exactly WHY does he not train anymore?
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Harness Museum
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 08:41:26 AM »

Don't waste your air Vic.
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VicD
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 08:43:35 AM »

Gee... stupid mock-portentous aphorisms just make the problems disappear!!

"Just make pickments on winnor's"

"You can't win if you don't have the horse"

"Time only mattor's if Your in Jale!"



Thanks!!!  head shake



Good one..
A guy told me about the time thing once when I was younger.
So I asked him if a 1:54 horse could usually beat a 1:50 horse?
The conversation ended right there..
I still love the "Only the losers complain" shit..
I don't complain when I lose. Never.
I do complain about the state of a sport that is loaded with thieves and scumbags. And I would like to see it corrected.
And it won't happen on an internet forum..
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VicD
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 08:45:09 AM »

Don't waste your air Vic.

I have nothing to do until 10AM...
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Harness Museum
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2013, 08:48:16 AM »

maybe you can knit a BTW blanket? laughing guy laughing guy beer
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Big Drench
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 09:33:29 AM »

Totally agree thumbs up thumbs up
At least this owner is TRYING. An effort is being made which is NOT was happened in the past

He may be trying, but who has he caught? The chemists control the sport, there are more beards than trainers and the wagering public knows who they are? Yet nothing changes! Burke got caught using oxy, and he walks! They should have made an example of what happens to obvious cheats who have been successful at cheating for years. Only then, will the sport gain some respect back, as no one has looked after the betting customer.

 carrot
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VicD
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 09:52:38 AM »

They treat the gamblers (the reason the game exists) like chumps until lots of them walk away.
What have any of the tracks done to bring back old players, or develop new ones?
Dollar beer and hot dog night in the Summer when it is 90 degrees and people will come out anyway, does not count..
If we can figure out who the beards are for Lou Pena, why can't the racing officials? Or who beards for other trainers?
If all places won't crack down on the nonsense, then just let them all race with any concoction that will make them go faster.
A 1:43 mile won't bring more people to the track, but it will sure keep the horse undertakers in business..
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TheRedMile
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 10:08:11 AM »

Good one..
A guy told me about the time thing once when I was younger.
So I asked him if a 1:54 horse could usually beat a 1:50 horse?
The conversation ended right there..
I still love the "Only the losers complain" shit..
I don't complain when I lose. Never.
I do complain about the state of a sport that is loaded with thieves and scumbags. And I would like to see it corrected.
And it won't happen on an internet forum..

never complain  ? when you lost a bet you made thru a bad call by a ref judge steward or coach you have never complained ?
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 02:18:31 PM »

There is a fairly long list of guys each week at USTA and in NJ of guys who aren't "juicing".
Lots of Clenbueterol violations I've seen, but that's not juicing either. Lidocaine? Nope? Flunixin? Not a chance.
I won't even mention EPO and the snake venom stuff, because venom comes from a snake and technically isn't a drug.
You try to compare what we have today with "old timers" who you infer did similar things?
You are a funny guy, Mel.
A handful of cayenne pepper on a horses nuts isn't quite the same as a drug that takes 3 years to develop a test for.
Oh, did I forget to mention the scumbags who tube their horses?
Baking soda, while natural (therefore not "Juicing" by your standards), is not found in a horses' system naturally. But when it gets there, harsh penalties should be meted out..
I think you know a great deal about harness racing, Mel. And yes, the guys from yesteryear were not angels, far from it.
But to compare some of them to these talentless, cheating, scumbag chemists, who have ZERO concern for the well being of their horses, and would toss them into a scrap heap (but only AFTER cashing a ticket), is just plain wrong.
Why doesn't every barn that has "a decent number of head" win at 30%? They don't.
"The fact that some people are better than other really seems to piss a lot of people off."
Sounds a lot like:
"All men are created equal, and some, more equal than others."
Keep on thinking that the big outfits are winning races with stuff they can buy at a local CVS, like aspirin.
And every horse that has an overage of TCO2 had it done by a disgruntled groom, a $300 per week guy who could actually blow up a multimillion dollar operation singlehandedly.
The sport stands where it is today NOT from all of the honesty and integrity it has. If people think it's bad, it's bad...
Not to beat this to death, but where is Ron's dad these days, and exactly WHY does he not train anymore?

I really dont know what or who or how youre trying to make people believe your points here, but Im a guy who's worked in those barns and been around a lot of successful people...and what YOU, would consider "cheating"....or "juicing" isnt near the 99% of what happens day in and day out. Im not talking of EPO and those types of things...(Im guessing since you're an expert, you could pull up the grand total of EPO positives over the years)...and for the record, EVERY horseman who's been around longer than 20 minutes knows anything that ends in "caine" is not usable. God bless you....I guess you either dont believe me or want to change the scope of what Im reading as the intent your trying to convey...Just lending some honest reality to you.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 02:21:14 PM »

So, by this line of thinking,  we should free burglars because other people commit homicides.

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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 02:22:06 PM »

BET BIG EVEN IF YOUR SHORT....LIKE LUC
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 02:47:03 PM »

So, by this line of thinking,  we should free burglars because other people commit homicides.


Do you not believe the truth or just dont want to hear it? Even though most people dont really like to hear truth, they usually accept it and respect it. Not so much in this forumn I guess.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 03:31:45 PM »

So, in short, you're saying the entire game is in fact far more corrupted by illegal drug than even the cynics here believe.  Isn't that your point?
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
Mel from Moline
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 03:36:49 PM »

So, in short, you're saying the entire game is in fact far more corrupted by illegal drug than even the cynics here believe.  Isn't that your point?


My point is obviously beyond your comprehension....the game is what it is. For everyone who wants to believe that these successful people should be "hay and oats"....just isnt realizing the reality. "Illegal drugs" arent the problem. Its the legal ones given at the wrong times that are 99.9% of the problem. As I mentioned before...look up the stats on EPO positives...or morphine...or sublamaze...see how many serious grade 1 types come up positive in how many races? Flucort and banamine .....those types are what gets people...
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TheRedMile
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 03:38:40 PM »

So, by this line of thinking,  we should free burglars because other people commit homicides.

i think illinois already tries that
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 03:43:51 PM »

My point is obviously beyond your comprehension....the game is what it is. For everyone who wants to believe that these successful people should be "hay and oats"....just isnt realizing the reality. "Illegal drugs" arent the problem. Its the legal ones given at the wrong times that are 99.9% of the problem. As I mentioned before...look up the stats on EPO positives...or morphine...or sublamaze...see how many serious grade 1 types come up positive in how many races? Flucort and banamine .....those types are what gets people...

Actually, I think your point, if indeed you have one, is beyond your own comprehension.  Reread what you posted previously:

Quote
A "level playing field" isnt what you would all want to believe, as most people believe that the "old timers" didnt do those things....PUH-LEASE. Not with standing, is the current thought process that only those dominant are "juicing". Most ANYONE who has enough head to have a decent number of starts, does something, which would be considered "juicing" to what it is so many of you call "cheating". Deluding yourselves into this "hay & oats" garbage just isnt reality

 Huh
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
Psycho Dad
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »

While the Harness game is not anything close to what it once was, I still love it and will chose to support it. Manage your gambling funds correctly and you can still enjoy the sport.
For those who feel bashing the sport is the way to go:

1. Why do you not rally BEHIND the owner of the premier track in North America?
An owner who is making an attempt to better the sport. Is any other owner/operator working to better the sport?
2. I am guilty of sometimes not knowing when a Burke horse is a lock or not. I chose to bet his horses I believe provide value. If his 3-5 looks like a standout. I use it, however, I use others I like.
If I lose or pick the wrong Burke horse, I blame it on myself. I don't question methods.
Quite frankly, I believe his horses are just flat out better than others in the race.
3. It must be miserable to be negative. If I hated the game, believe its fixed, etc, I have 2 choices: A) Find something else to follow. Plenty of other things around to follow.
B) Play pick 3's and 4's more to cover more angles.

There has always been questioning of any game that offers gambling. What I don't get, is why chose to complain, Baseball season is right around the corner. Spend your gambling money on 81 games and freeze your butt off for 40 of them.

As I have said many times, if I lose, I feel I could have done a better job. I do not blame it on trainers, and conspiracy angles. JMO.

I do not consider telling the truth about the bad things of the sport, "bashing the sport."

Randy Waples said as much in a televised interview last year or the year before (Hambo Day?).  He said to fix the game we must show it warts and all.  As for your list.

1)  I agree
2)  There are no such things as locks.  Burke's winners were locks AFTER they win.  The bad part of Burke and Coleman is the necessity to use their horses at short prices when horses enter their barns for THE FIRST TIME, even though they have no form.  THAT IS THE VERY UGLY PART OF THE GAME!! After the first time, you rely on form like with horses from every other barn.  Don't forget, bad racing luck can beat first time Burke and first time Coleman.  You use your observational skills to determine if it was bad racing luck or bad form in deciding why they lose.
3)  Correct.  Now you understand why so many players have left the game.
4)  I like pick-3s and pick-4s, but adding horses does NOT help your value.

As for WHY you lose your bet, I recommend you become more clinical than blaming yourself for losing.  While that may be the cause of many losses, there are others.

The proefssional gambler reviews his bets after every day's races and assigns the proper blame and congratulatory note to every wager made.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:55:33 PM by Psycho Dad » Report to moderator   Logged
Mel from Moline
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 03:49:09 PM »

Actually, I think your point, if indeed you have one, is beyond your own comprehension.  Reread what you posted previously:

 Huh

If you say so.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 03:58:25 PM »

Simple question:  are some trainers giving their horses illegal performance-enhancing meds, or not? A yes or no will suffice.
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 04:07:20 PM »

Simple question:  are some trainers giving their horses illegal performance-enhancing meds, or not? A yes or no will suffice.


Some? Yes. 99%...NO
  There will always be "some". Always.
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Psycho Dad
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« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2013, 04:15:38 PM »

Some? Yes. 99%...NO
  There will always be "some". Always.

I believe its more like 20%.  Just a guess.
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VicD
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« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2013, 04:25:29 PM »

Some? Yes. 99%...NO
  There will always be "some". Always.

Yes Mel, you see what we can't.
I will genuflect to you if I ever meet you.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2013, 04:29:21 PM »

Yes Mel, you see what we can't.
I will genuflect to you if I ever meet you.


Not necessary. You seem like a good guy...just trying to relay the reality of the game...thats all.  thumbs up beer
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VicD
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« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 04:59:18 PM »

Not necessary. You seem like a good guy...just trying to relay the reality of the game...thats all.  thumbs up beer

Thanks.
I lived the reality of the game as an owner for 4 years. I've gambled on it for 30 years. I get the picture.
The reality is that the game has been destroyed by these ***.
I would never consider paying bills on another horse, even if I won Lotto..
And I never considered myself an "expert" (your words, not mine).
And the part you mention about "if it ends in caine it's not useable" obviously didn't get through to many horsemen. Take a look at the violations every week. Guess those guys didn't get that memo..
As far as the "legal vs. illegal" drugs and how they are administered, please explain that difference to us again.
If a guy running a training operation can't afford a wristwatch and can't subtract 9PM from 1PM and get 8 hours, he is probably a guy that is too stupid for me to pay $4000 a month to train my horse.
And please stop trying to make the "hay and oats" thing into a joke, like you know what I don't know..
How about all those good, hard working guys at Saratoga a few years back with the venom?
Was that accidental? Like they didn't know what it was for?
Legal drugs administered improperly gives you the same net effect, doesn't it? It's still outside the rules.
You know something Mel, you don't have to be standing in a stall and watch a horse get tubed or injected to understand the effect. You really don't.
Remember one other thing.
The very people that you consider idiots for questioning this stuff are the reason you had a job, if you worked as a trainer.
No gamblers, and guys like you get to drive a taxi somewhere..
So I will tell you, that the perception IS the reality, and until guys like you step up to the plate (trainers,horsemen etc.) the REALITY is you have a dying game, no matter how many slot machines they install.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 05:03:39 PM »

Vic...I understand your opinion and respect it.

Ok...here's the best i can do.... "legal"....the therapeutics...bute/banamine(examples) even the Clen that you mentioned is legal in PA if given the correct time out...HOWEVER...if you give it too close....oops ... head shake

'Illegal"...would be any of the "caines" as mentioned, which also gets used a vet tool to block something early in a week, and may still show up, (although unlikely) or serious narcotics or EPO....all this ITPP nonsense the way I understand it is unusable as the cost would be ENORMOUS. I truly havent a clue about that particualr one.

 Basically, legal or illegal comes much more down to when, than what. No one with a brain would use those substances of the past that now are completely off limits..(i.e. sublamaze)

The amount of positive tests on something that truly matters are next to nil....because losing your license isnt worth it.

 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:15:01 PM by Mel from Moline » Report to moderator   Logged

Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
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