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Author Topic: Tips/advice for conspiracy theorists  (Read 1640 times)
the exactorman
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« on: February 24, 2013, 12:57:37 PM »

While the Harness game is not anything close to what it once was, I still love it and will chose to support it. Manage your gambling funds correctly and you can still enjoy the sport.
For those who feel bashing the sport is the way to go:

1. Why do you not rally BEHIND the owner of the premier track in North America?
An owner who is making an attempt to better the sport. Is any other owner/operator working to better the sport?
2. I am guilty of sometimes not knowing when a Burke horse is a lock or not. I chose to bet his horses I believe provide value. If his 3-5 looks like a standout. I use it, however, I use others I like.
If I lose or pick the wrong Burke horse, I blame it on myself. I don't question methods.
Quite frankly, I believe his horses are just flat out better than others in the race.
3. It must be miserable to be negative. If I hated the game, believe its fixed, etc, I have 2 choices: A) Find something else to follow. Plenty of other things around to follow.
B) Play pick 3's and 4's more to cover more angles.

There has always been questioning of any game that offers gambling. What I don't get, is why chose to complain, Baseball season is right around the corner. Spend your gambling money on 81 games and freeze your butt off for 40 of them.

As I have said many times, if I lose, I feel I could have done a better job. I do not blame it on trainers, and conspiracy angles. JMO.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 01:06:31 PM »

Do you understand that one can (as I do) support Gural, yet continue to complain about things which undercut the bona fides of the broader sport?

Mindless boosterism is not the answer.  You yourself have observed the workings of the open window at several tracks, if I recall correctly.  What greater interest is served by shutting up about it?

I like the NJ Nets, but I think Deron Williams is a bad shooter, over paid and a crybaby.  Anyone who genuinely thinks this makes me a "hater", or whatever, has their own issues.
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

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the exactorman
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 01:15:01 PM »

Do you understand that one can (as I do) support Gural, yet continue to complain about things which undercut the bona fides of the broader sport?

Mindless boosterism is not the answer.  You yourself have observed the workings of the open window at several tracks, if I recall correctly.  What greater interest is served by shutting up about it?

I like the NJ Nets, but I think Deron Williams is a bad shooter, over paid and a crybaby.  Anyone who genuinely thinks this makes me a "hater", or whatever, has their own issues.
Never mentioned you or anyone specific. That's not my way.
I was once taught if a person complains, that's fine, as long as that person provides solutions to correcting the problem. I have no allegience to any of these trainers, but how can I tell if a guy is 10 wins out of 20 starts and is honest, versus a trainer who is 10 for 20 but HE is "cheating"....and BTW I do NOT change my thinking that betting/cancelling bets is happening seconds into a race...i watch too many races to feel otherwise.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 01:18:06 PM »

"I was once taught if a person complains, that's fine, as long as that person provides solutions to correcting the problem."

So one shouldn't complain about people dying of Ebolavirus unless one can provide cures for it?  WHA???
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
the exactorman
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 01:20:57 PM »

This is where myself and a lot of posters differ including yourself.  I could care less wether i win or lose, somenights i'll win some nights ill lose.  Its not about complaining wether a race is fixed or a horse was juiced.  Its about cleaning up the sport and leveling the playing field.  Anybody who thinks the game is clean IS A MORON im sorry you just are.  MLB, Olympics, Cycling they all are ahead of the testing game and its no different in Horseracing.  Very few if any love HARNESSRACING more than myself to me its not just about gambling its the history, the breeding, the champions past and present.  The fact of the matter is Harness Racing is like Major League Baseball was in the 80's and 90's and maybe nothing can be done.  I enjoy it either way and can see with my eyes and experience what goes on, on a weekly basis.  The game needs to be cleaned up for the 85 percent of the horseman who do things the right way and i myself do not know who the 85 percent is but im rooting for them thumbs up.  Thats why i applaud trainers like Kevin Mc der mott who came out and said the sport needs cleaned up.  
I do not think you are referring that I think the sport is clean. Don't you think a collective effort needs to take place to clean up the sport? Just like any other problem, it requires funds, and it seems not too many people want to go into their own pocket to fix it.
After the miracle happens and it does get fixed, then these same people can go back to good old fashioned conspiracies of how trainers keep their horses at set class levels in order to pick up consistent checks sarcasm.....there will always be something to complain about....
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 01:22:37 PM »

Let's all sing "Kumbaya" together on a scenic hillside to make horse juicing go away.

The only thing players can do to get the problem resolves is to vote with their feet.  Most already have.
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2013, 01:23:09 PM »

The problem with the sport is the same as most of the problems in the country. Too many people that have the power to make changes or enforce the laws don't because they are as crooked as the cheaters are.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 01:24:26 PM »

At the upper levels of management and oversight, it was indifference, laziness and dumbitude... generally not thievery.
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
the exactorman
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 01:32:16 PM »

I am not going to be convinced that I need to stop going to harness tracks....same reason why I needed to stop watching baseball because Brady Anderson hit too many HR's.
I will try and figure to the best of my ability when these 2-3 guys are live or not. I can promise people 1 thing, when I win I am not going to customer service to return the money I won.
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the exactorman
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 01:34:52 PM »

At the upper levels of management and oversight, it was indifference, laziness and dumbitude... generally not thievery.
Totally agree thumbs up thumbs up
At least this owner is TRYING. An effort is being made which is NOT was happened in the past
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jdizigg
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 01:35:28 PM »

I am not going to be convinced that I need to stop going to harness tracks....same reason why I needed to stop watching baseball because Brady Anderson hit too many HR's.
I will try and figure to the best of my ability when these 2-3 guys are live or not. I can promise people 1 thing, when I win I am not going to customer service to return the money I won.

Who's trying to convince you to stop going to harness tracks?
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Homestretch
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 01:43:35 PM »

Let all track management teams follow the footsteps of Jeff and Jason and we will take a big step forward in moving our sport in the right direction once more !!!
Bottom line !!!!!
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APPRENTICE
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 01:46:56 PM »

Who's trying to convince you to stop going to harness tracks?


ANY SPORT YOU LUV,,,,

DONT LET ANYONE,,TELL YOU NOT TO ATTEND ,OR CHEER FOR,,

ENJOY YOUR LIFE ENJOY YOUR,,,SPORT,,

GOD SAVE DA QUEEN,,,,,,,, trophy trophy trophy trophy


JUST FEELIN A LITTLE BRITISH TODAY,,,,,,,


SWANSEA CITY,,,FA,,,SOCCER CHAMPS,,DIS MORN,,


GO SWANSEA,,,FROM NORTH WALES... trophy trophy trophy trophy trophy trophy trophy trophy trophy
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 01:52:15 PM »

JD had it right... no one is trying to convince you to stop going to harness tracks.

Do you seriously believe that one wounds the game by pointing up serious issues which have undermined public confidence in it?   How would the sport ever improve?

Were the people who suggested the DH in the AL 40 years ago (at the height of the pitcher era) a bunch of "haters" out to kill baseball?
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
the exactorman
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 01:59:31 PM »

JD had it right... no one is trying to convince you to stop going to harness tracks.

Do you seriously believe that one wounds the game by pointing up serious issues which have undermined public confidence in it?   How would the sport ever improve?

Were the people who suggested the DH in the AL 40 years ago (at the height of the pitcher era) a bunch of "haters" out to kill baseball?
I do NOT think its wrong to point out the games issues. Maybe I articulated myself incorrectly.
I just hate reading posts about an owner who is TRYING, where others have not.
There are many nights where I did not follow M1, however, I have been there 12-14 times this year, and I have seen value on many of those nights. When I can look back at a program after I lose and see why the horse that won could have been bet, I blame it myself that's just me.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 02:11:16 PM »

Actually I think many if not most of the posters here are quite pro-Gural, as I am.   
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
GeorgeB
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 06:02:07 PM »

While the Harness game is not anything close to what it once was, I still love it and will chose to support it. Manage your gambling funds correctly and you can still enjoy the sport.
For those who feel bashing the sport is the way to go:

1. Why do you not rally BEHIND the owner of the premier track in North America?
An owner who is making an attempt to better the sport. Is any other owner/operator working to better the sport?
2. I am guilty of sometimes not knowing when a Burke horse is a lock or not. I chose to bet his horses I believe provide value. If his 3-5 looks like a standout. I use it, however, I use others I like.
If I lose or pick the wrong Burke horse, I blame it on myself. I don't question methods.
Quite frankly, I believe his horses are just flat out better than others in the race.
3. It must be miserable to be negative. If I hated the game, believe its fixed, etc, I have 2 choices: A) Find something else to follow. Plenty of other things around to follow.
B) Play pick 3's and 4's more to cover more angles.

There has always been questioning of any game that offers gambling. What I don't get, is why chose to complain, Baseball season is right around the corner. Spend your gambling money on 81 games and freeze your butt off for 40 of them.

As I have said many times, if I lose, I feel I could have done a better job. I do not blame it on trainers, and conspiracy angles. JMO.

You use the term "Burke horse".

When you use a term with a human's name ahead of horse, you are saying that the human element, for one reason or another, is such a HUGE factor in your analysis, that its really about the trainer and the horse is just a bit player.

Horseplayers don't want humans to be too much of a factor, they want to handicap horses and give a small amount of credit (or non credit) to the human beings in charge of their care.

Horse players want to handicap horses...with a small assistance from jocks, trainers, drivers or owners as 'handicapping factors'.
They don't want to handicap humans with a small assistance from the horse.

With certain trainers, they're so dominant, that the horse seems to not matter all that much, they're all interchangable monsters.

I dont believe that horseplayers care a heck of a lot HOW these supertrainers are getting their results...they dont care if its thru cheating or thru being honest...all they know is that a supertrainer dominating the races is bad for THEIR business, its bad for their ability to handicap HORSE races, dominant humans get in the way of fair contests and the ability to actually handicap HORSES.

The reason that people shout CHEATER when a trainer dominates is because if they yelled "HES AN HONEST HORSE WHISPERER" that would mean no racing jurisdiction is going to care one iota, they're not going to kick out an honest guy for winning too many races.

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TheRedMile
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 06:09:15 PM »


Do you seriously believe that one wounds the game by pointing up serious issues which have undermined public confidence in it?   How would the sport ever improve?


the problem is the bashers are attaacking the wrong people,they should be attacking the people who run the game just as bad as they do burke but they do not.
it is similar to blaming certain woes on unions when in many cases mgmt is as much if not more to blame to for some problems
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 08:24:07 PM »

This is a VERY interesting discussion. What I think most people or gamblers just dont understand is that what many consider "juicing" just isnt. A "level playing field" isnt what you would all want to believe, as most people believe that the "old timers" didnt do those things....PUH-LEASE. Not with standing, is the current thought process that only those dominant are "juicing". Most ANYONE who has enough head to have a decent number of starts, does something, which would be considered "juicing" to what it is so many of you call "cheating". Deluding yourselves into this "hay & oats" garbage just isnt reality. Isnt now, wasnt then. The horse is still the single biggest factor in all this. The fact that people are just better than other really seems to piss a lot of people off. Stuff happens.
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Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
Wink Martingale
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 10:12:35 PM »

In other words, it really IS juicing, but since all the successful trainers do it, it's also NOT juicing.   bang head
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 11:57:25 PM »

Never mentioned you or anyone specific. That's not my way.
I was once taught if a person complains, that's fine, as long as that person provides solutions to correcting the problem. I have no allegience to any of these trainers, but how can I tell if a guy is 10 wins out of 20 starts and is honest, versus a trainer who is 10 for 20 but HE is "cheating"....and BTW I do NOT change my thinking that betting/cancelling bets is happening seconds into a race...i watch too many races to feel otherwise.

I believe that harness racing is as clean as can be expected in a game where money changes hands.

If we have 10 suspicious races in say a 1000 we always focus our attention on those 10 races rather than the 990.

If I thought even for a second that the majority of the races are crooked, I would have quit the sport a long time ago.
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momo
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 02:16:27 AM »

the momo says pick winners and bet the winners...rest is all bs.
                                                    momo
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IRA
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 02:53:44 AM »

Mel.from moline  thumbs up thumbs up
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bowserkat
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 03:21:26 AM »

I enjoy going to the track.  Like JD, I enjoy harness racing, not just the betting.    Sure, I like to bet too, but can also enjoy watching non-betting races at a county fair and betting quarters with the other folks in the grandstand.  I hate when honest people anywhere are hurt by the cheaters and scumbags.  Most only care about betting aspects of the game.  The size of the pools ,multi-race lottery type bets and other stuff like that.  Funny, people don't complain when they win because the horse they bet on was juiced. I hate it more because it hurts the animal , not that I lost a bet because of it.
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Wink Martingale
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 08:34:01 AM »

Gee... stupid mock-portentous aphorisms just make the problems disappear!!

"Just make pickments on winnor's"

"You can't win if you don't have the horse"

"Time only mattor's if Your in Jale!"



Thanks!!!  head shake
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"Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world."

--Winston Churchill
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