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Author Topic: AP vs ITHA  (Read 3520 times)
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2013, 07:53:29 AM »

I have said it before and I will say it again.  Beobob is one of the clearest thinkers I have seen on this board.  I hope others see this too and not try to drive him off like they have others.

Do you see any sign of anyone trying to "drive off" beobob? I don't.

Now OTOH, your own behavior towards some other posters such as j-stuff ... just abominable, kettle. 
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2013, 09:43:41 AM »

 
  Equiforce and H&BT in Sync ?

  World Peace may be next.

 ( think I'll go have a few beers and bet some races to celebrate )
 
 
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 10:33:41 AM »

AP Statement on Stall Rent:

"Horsemen may have received a text message regarding stall rent at Arlington. This is incorrect. There will not be stall rent. The stall application does contain language for the track to impose a rent on trainers who do not run in races and use the facility for training only. This policy protects the trainers who may want additional stalls, protects those trainers who do run, protects the purses for owners and protects handle. Please feel free to direct any questions to Chris Polzin. Thank you for your time we apologize for any inconvenience the stall rent message may have caused. "

The ITHA side of the story has somewhat different slant on it, namely that it's the same language the ITHA objected to last year and the IRB made them remove because it wasn't part of their dates app, and also that Petrillo stated in testimony in front of the IRB during the past dates hearing that there would be no stall rents ... but here is that same clause again. AP just keeps doing crap like this. And people wonder why the ITHA doesn't always get along with AP.

http://itharacing.com/weeklywhinnies/detail/detaillist/Mjk5
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Dr. Mel
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2013, 10:40:18 AM »

"A stall rent may be imposed on trainers that do not average one (1)start per stall per month or on a horse which runs at another racetrack in a race and condition that Arlington offers and runs."

You can't charge someone stall rent for running their horse elsewhere in the same condition or claiming price. If I run at Churchill Downs or Indiana Downs (Dirt tracks), I guess I will have to pay a stall rent. You may aswell not put that horse on the stall application. When Arlington decides to put in the proper polytrack like Keeneland. Then maybe horsemen will run without leaving.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:45:59 AM by Dr. Mel » Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2013, 11:21:21 AM »

The main problem is may. That says it's completely arbitrary who gets charged, which then of course opens things up to accusations of using stall rents as punishments or inducements. I think AP has already tried something along those lines against Campbell last year, didn't it? And here now it looks like they're setting up to do more of the same, even though the ITHA membership just gave him a vote of confidence by reelecting him.
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »

Quote from: zimms1948
Who signs your paycheck? 

Neither AP nor the ITHA.


Quote from: zimms1948
Glen works for the ITHA and he works very hard to see that the owners and horsemen do get money that should come to us. As does the Board and Mike C.

Yes and that's why I asked for clearer explanations last year. I participated in IL racing last year AS AN OWNER and Glen was supposed to be working for me. Being yelled at is not something I expect out of someone working for me.

Quote from: zimms1948
Who are the Shareholders in CDI?  I would like to buy some stock. Maybe the ITHA should buy some. Where should we go for this opportunity?

Huh?

Quote from: zimms1948
I do not frequent Barntowire, I wish peoples' actual names were used.

Me too. Maybe set an example like I do and do the same, and not hide behind an internet moniker.


Quote from: zimms1948
Streetfighters don't fit. Win at all cost, doesn't fit.

Agree. But BOTH sides here don't like playing along. Hell, some people don't even show up at designated third-party location meeting places (hint: ITHA pres last year)

Quote from: zimms1948
The horsemen can't pay the bills. So what is the answer, only guys with stables at multiple tracks are going to be welcome? If you are not a big outfit, go away?

Again - huh? Who is saying that? How are the actions of AP (other than the St. Leger stake, which is nullified by the ridiculous IL Derby purse increase) saying that? No effin' way anyway from out East is going to come to AP with the crap money in Illinois.

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SandyLoam
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2013, 12:44:19 PM »

Blah! Blah! Blah!
Why waste time picking apart these details when everyone involved in the Thoroughbred horse racing industry should be ashamed of themselves for abdicating their responsibility to protect and nurture the game? Churchill Downs, as a faceless, amoral corporation, will do what it does. No surprises there. Double D is a ruthless autocrat who again does what he does. The only people who really suffer, bugle blast, are the fans. But what else is new? Debate all you want on a micro level in February. Have fun with that. The greed and selfishness last all year. I don't want to hear any more of it. When in hell are people in this state going to get their s**t together? Boycott CDI/Arlington. It's the only way. Eff the action!
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2013, 12:52:41 PM »


Quote
The horsemen can't pay the bills. So what is the answer, only guys with stables at multiple tracks are going to be welcome? If you are not a big outfit, go away?

Again - huh? Who is saying that? How are the actions of AP (other than the St. Leger stake, which is nullified by the ridiculous IL Derby purse increase) saying that? No effin' way anyway from out East is going to come to AP with the crap money in Illinois.


I think what she's talking about here is the true root of the conflict between AP and the ITHA.

AP would like to eliminate all competition starting with the Spring meet at Hawthorne and take all the simulcast money in the State to jack up their own meet's purses. (And in the process make it impossible for Haw to continue as a going concern, which would soon eliminate the Fall meet, too, and harness tracks are next on Dick's radar.) The end result would be a very abbreviated racing season in Chicago, all at AP, but with much higher purses that would attract the Pletchers and so on. Being the only game in town and putting on what one poster used to call a "garden party" for his high end friends has been Dick D.'s goal all along, and he's on record as saying he built the new track with the idea of being the only track.

Meanwhile, that kind of schedule alone, much less the competition, would put a lot of existing Illinois horsemen out of business. Unfortunately, they naturally consider their own investments, aspirations, families, and claim to ownership of part of "Illinois racing" just as important as anything Dick D. wants, so they take rebellious actions in their own interests, like continuing to support Spring dates at Hawthorne. There's the heart of the matter, IMHO - this particular group of ITHA officers does not meekly knuckle under to whatever Dick D. wants like so many past administrations.

And of course there's other issues like CDI/Twin Spires thinking the entire population of Illinois is merely a pari-mutuel cash machine for them to exploit at a crummy small % of the ADW handle for purses, while the horsemen more naturally feel something akin to traditional OTB or ITW simulcast splits might be a little more appropriate.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2013, 12:58:28 PM »

Blah! Blah! Blah!
Why waste time picking apart these details when everyone involved in the Thoroughbred horse racing industry should be ashamed of themselves for abdicating their responsibility to protect and nurture the game? Churchill Downs, as a faceless, amoral corporation, will do what it does. No surprises there. Double D is a ruthless autocrat who again does what he does. The only people who really suffer, bugle blast, are the fans. But what else is new? Debate all you want on a micro level in February. Have fun with that. The greed and selfishness last all year. I don't want to hear any more of it.

Well, unfortunately, you're going to continue to do so, because AP has quite obviously settled on a noisy public strategy of "divide and conquer", trying to make its (generally murky and somewhat dishonest we neglected to mention you would be giving up $80 million to help our ADW company) case directly to horse owners, particularly to those maybe not really involved or in tune with what goes on regularly, and turn them against the ITHA.    
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2013, 01:04:54 PM »

If you haven't noticed, small mom and pop businesses have been going out of business for quite some time. I for one would welcome a shorter, higher quality meet at AP with increased purses. Most serious players without inside information are not going to wager on the cheap claiming and statebred races that have become the staple here. Local horsemen are just a pawn for our track owners/operators to utilize in their quest for slots. Unfortunately, IMHO, even if slots were given to the tracks, racing's days are numbered in Illinois.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2013, 01:09:44 PM »

If you haven't noticed, small mom and pop businesses have been going out of business for quite some time. I for one would welcome a shorter, higher quality meet at AP with increased purses.

Do you derive your livelihood from racing and does it put the food on your table and school supplies in your kids' backpacks?

If not, you're probably not thinking along the same lines as most horsemen.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2013, 01:39:23 PM »

serious players without inside information

Quite the contradiction there.
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2013, 04:39:19 PM »

Do you derive your livelihood from racing and does it put the food on your table and school supplies in your kids' backpacks?

If not, you're probably not thinking along the same lines as most horsemen.

No and no. So what's your point?
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2013, 04:39:50 PM »

Quite the contradiction there.


Huh?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2013, 04:57:17 PM »

No and no. So what's your point?

So the point is your take on whether or not the season should be shortened is pretty irrelevant to what horsemen want or bargain for. 
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2013, 06:51:04 PM »

It is getting old........It is a fact that ITHA (Mike/Glen) will never get a long with AP, including Tony P. This I know first hand. AP and the ITHA WASTED a lot of time trying to get the 2012 contract agreed upon. In a union environment, this is common practice to come down to the wire. What is differant about AP and the ITHA is they personally HATE each other.

My suggestion is to apply the same resolution as last year..... Remove Mike and Glen from the table, and let Chris Block handle the negotiations for the horseman.

IMO, the recipe of Hawthorne/AP/Mike and Glen is going to be disastrous for Illinois racing.
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2013, 07:04:57 PM »

It is getting old........It is a fact that ITHA (Mike/Glen) will never get a long with AP, including Tony P. This I know first hand. AP and the ITHA WASTED a lot of time trying to get the 2012 contract agreed upon. In a union environment, this is common practice to come down to the wire. What is differant about AP and the ITHA is they personally HATE each other.

My suggestion is to apply the same resolution as last year..... Remove Mike and Glen from the table, and let Chris Block handle the negotiations for the horseman.

IMO, the recipe of Hawthorne/AP/Mike and Glen is going to be disastrous for Illinois racing.

Maybe AP should remove Tony Petrillo from the table.
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 07:33:17 PM »

Maybe AP should remove Tony Petrillo from the table.

Terry, I am fine with that as well. But what I do know is that Chris Block was able to get a deal struck with AP in one night at the table. Something that Glen and Mike could not get done in several months.

Who knows how long the boycott would have lasted in 2012, if it wasn't for cooler heads prevailing. My point is that Chris Block IMO does not have a agenda against AP. 
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2013, 11:50:50 PM »

So the point is your take on whether or not the season should be shortened is pretty irrelevant to what horsemen want or bargain for. 

I think that it's important to move one step up from here.  What if what the horsemen want is no longer feasible in this new enviornment?  Is it possible to run for 10K purses with a livable day rate for a trainer and stay in business? A 5-10K claimer would have to win 6 races a year to break even (@2.5K/mo and 10% to jock & trainer).  Is that realistic?  Is it possible that it is not economically viable to run a 5K claimer in Illinois with day rates at $65-$80?  Are we fighting to keep something that cannot be sustained just because it used to work?  

Does racing 11 months a year dilute the purse pool and lead to lower fields? Or is it what we need to keep Illinois racing alive?  Does it help or hurt our future? I hope somewhere someone in our leadership is asking these questions.  
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2013, 11:55:18 PM »

It is getting old........It is a fact that ITHA (Mike/Glen) will never get a long with AP, including Tony P. This I know first hand. AP and the ITHA WASTED a lot of time trying to get the 2012 contract agreed upon. In a union environment, this is common practice to come down to the wire. What is differant about AP and the ITHA is they personally HATE each other.

My suggestion is to apply the same resolution as last year..... Remove Mike and Glen from the table, and let Chris Block handle the negotiations for the horseman.

IMO, the recipe of Hawthorne/AP/Mike and Glen is going to be disastrous for Illinois racing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.  Our future depends on a collaborative working relationship with AP.  Without it we have no chance.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2013, 12:01:53 AM »

I think that it's important to move one step up from here.  What if what the horsemen want is no longer feasible in this new enviornment?  Is it possible to run for 10K purses with a livable day rate for a trainer and stay in business? A 5-10K claimer would have to win 6 races a year to break even (@2.5K/mo and 10% to jock & trainer).  Is that realistic?  Is it possible that it is not economically viable to run a 5K claimer in Illinois with day rates at $65-$80?  Are we fighting to keep something that cannot be sustained just because it used to work?  

Does racing 11 months a year dilute the purse pool and lead to lower fields? Or is it what we need to keep Illinois racing alive?  Does it help or hurt our future? I hope somewhere someone in our leadership is asking these questions.  

If you're counting on anyone at all to fall on their sword for the good of someone else, you've got a long wait. The guy with the most money of all won't budge an inch, and you can't expect guys hanging on by a shoestring to do so, either.

As was previously mentioned, and is always mentioned by horsemen in these situations no matter where they occur, it's about "opportunities". Running three days a week for four months a year just isn't going to get it done.
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2013, 12:04:00 AM »

Terry, I am fine with that as well. But what I do know is that Chris Block was able to get a deal struck with AP in one night at the table. Something that Glen and Mike could not get done in several months.

And Glen and Mike manage to get it done in a day with Hawthorne, so go figure.
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2013, 12:14:16 AM »

What is your "real name" Zimms ?
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2013, 12:23:49 AM »

And Glen and Mike manage to get it done in a day with Hawthorne, so go figure.

I think that comparison might be apples and oranges.  Hawthorne has no choice but to do whatever the ITHA wants (ie. the impact money) because they are hanging by a thread and need the ITHA to back them in any battle with the IRB against AP.  Even the foolish 250K that we learned on a different thread Mike Campbell thought was a waste of money at some point, was still supported by the ITHA at the IRB meeting.  In my opinion it appears that the ITHA has chosen sides, and that might not be the best thing for us.
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« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2013, 12:24:52 AM »

And Red....temporary slip....had just finished watching "Stepford wives"... I'm all better now !!!
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