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Author Topic: AP vs ITHA  (Read 3313 times)
APCD Dan
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« on: February 07, 2013, 08:52:16 PM »

A source which shall remain anonymous has urged me to stir the pot on the above subject.  According to articles posted on the BTW main page, there appears to be a misunderstanding between the two above groups.  They seem to be in two different worlds over the contract for this racing season.  I do not think there is such a thing as opposing "facts" but we seem to have this situation in newsletters sent out by both parties.

I will leave it up to the posters of BTW to read these newsletters and judge who is telling the truth.  All I can say it is good that the AP season is not starting soon.
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 09:01:56 PM »

AP/ITHA will never get along. Whoever said the ITHA does not have an adversarial stance against AP is kidding themselves.

Berman/Campbell will always be fighting against AP, and I bet the contract goes down to the wire just like last year.

Just more ways of IL racing shooting itself in the foot.
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big wally
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 09:20:09 PM »

I have no real insight on this  but just by reading statements from both sides on various matter the past 10 months or so.... This sure looks like it personal never a good way negotiate
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 09:58:47 PM »

AP/ITHA will never get along. Whoever said the ITHA does not have an adversarial stance against AP is kidding themselves.

Whoever believes that's what anyone said is who is kidding themselves.

What WAS said is that the relationship is not the explanation behind every move the ITHA makes, including the "support", such as it was or wasn't, for Hawthorne's $250k bump of the Illinois Derby.
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"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 10:05:40 PM »

A source which shall remain anonymous has urged me to stir the pot on the above subject.  According to articles posted on the BTW main page, there appears to be a misunderstanding between the two above groups.  They seem to be in two different worlds over the contract for this racing season.  I do not think there is such a thing as opposing "facts" but we seem to have this situation in newsletters sent out by both parties.

Particularly in the claim by the ITHA that "No change was made to payment amounts to ITHA" and AP's counter claim that this contract is somehow (unspecified, of course) going to cost owners hundreds of thousands.

Quote
I will leave it up to the posters of BTW to read these newsletters and judge who is telling the truth.

You can't. There are no facts and figures included upon which to base a decision, other than the $14k for 1/2 the horseman's book keeper, and that's a long haul to hundreds of thousands.
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 10:07:53 PM »

Berman/Campbell will always be fighting against AP, and I bet the contract goes down to the wire just like last year.

And yet they both say they have no problems doing contracts with Hawthorne every year that get signed in no time at all, so to me it doesn't really sound like there's some underlying problem with Berman and Campbell as negotiators. Which would leave AP.
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Equiforce
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 11:04:56 PM »

Terry,
I agree, 100%.
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beobob
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 11:07:35 PM »

Whatever has or hasn't happened in the past doesn't matter.  Businesses that are thriving in this current environment have a collaborative relationship with their workforce.  The adversarial thing doesn't work anymore. Pointing fingers doesn't help anyone and I doubt if all the animosity is coming from only one side.

We have the horses, they have the venue.  We need them and they need us.  There must be some way to to reach common beneficial ground. We are a declining industry, and can't afford this infighting. Instead of fighting for the best price for a ticket on the Titanic, we should be working together to find another way across.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 12:57:15 AM by beobob » Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 01:53:38 AM »

Whatever has or hasn't happened in the past doesn't matter.  Businesses that are thriving in this current environment have a collaborative relationship with their workforce.  The adversarial thing doesn't work anymore. Pointing fingers doesn't help anyone and I doubt if all the animosity is coming from only one side.

I certainly agree with that, and I thought people had agreed after last year that duking these things out in dueling press releases wasn't really productive. But here we are again, it seems, and AP's propaganda dept. has been regularly issuing these horseman bulletins directly to owners trashing the ITHA for what seems like months.
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"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
zimms1948
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2013, 06:37:22 AM »

Glen Berman is a very astute and honest guy. He works for the ITHA and does what the board votes for him to do.

The financial situation of the Chicago area trainers is brutal and the money received from ADW was not a fair share for the horsemen. We only want to try to survive. Too late for some.

The trainers, owners and breeders cannot pay their bills AND the inability to see any signs of breaking even let alone making a profit make the outlook bleak. Why does a guy with all the money in the world that can do whatever he wants, want to have our money ,too?

It costs 25,000. a year to have a racehorse. 2000 stalls at Arlington? 50,000,000. to provide the racing stock for the meets.It's not like we aren't a factor. And we pay recapture to the tracks to make sure they stay in business. I need some money to try to exist. Whose giving to me?
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Scav
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2013, 08:19:40 AM »

Glen Berman is a very astute and honest guy. He works for the ITHA and does what the board votes for him to do.

The financial situation of the Chicago area trainers is brutal and the money received from ADW was not a fair share for the horsemen. We only want to try to survive. Too late for some.

The trainers, owners and breeders cannot pay their bills AND the inability to see any signs of breaking even let alone making a profit make the outlook bleak. Why does a guy with all the money in the world that can do whatever he wants, want to have our money ,too?

It costs 25,000. a year to have a racehorse. 2000 stalls at Arlington? 50,000,000. to provide the racing stock for the meets.It's not like we aren't a factor. And we pay recapture to the tracks to make sure they stay in business. I need some money to try to exist. Whose giving to me?

Where does it cost 25k a year to keep a horse in training? For a trainer that works hard, knows what he is doing, and wins races, your looking at between 30-40k when you figure in all expenses such as Trainer Purse %, which is an expense. That 25k is just in day rate IMO.
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2013, 08:21:54 AM »

Glen Berman is a very astute and honest guy.



I had to stop reading your post right there. My conversations and exchanges with him last year days before the open of the AP meet left A LOT to be desired. Any shred of questioning ITHA or his motives left him nearly yelling at me or my partners. He is as stubborn as they come.
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2013, 08:24:26 AM »


I had to stop reading your post right there. My conversations and exchanges with him last year days before the open of the AP meet left A LOT to be desired. Any shred of questioning ITHA or his motives left him nearly yelling at me or my partners. He is as stubborn as they come.

Its at a point that no one should really know who to trust in all this. Look at Arlington's response.

http://www.arlingtonpark.com/horsemen/news

(Arlington should post the Trackng numbers for the responses sent to them)

Its like these two are playing the longest game of poker, final card is drawn yet they are arguing who is gonna show their cards first.
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ggenie
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2013, 08:59:17 AM »

Stall apps are out and online.  Everyone needs to read the fine print, especially the part about charging stall rent.
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 09:36:47 AM »

Stall apps are out and online.  Everyone needs to read the fine print, especially the part about charging stall rent.


Quote
29.) The undersigned Owner, Trainer or Authorized Agent acknowledges that each additional
starter in a race will produce an increase in Mutuel Handle, which will increase Purse Revenues
for Horsemen, and is expected to average at least One (1) Start per Month for each stall allotted
during the 2013 Race Meet. A stall rent may be imposed on trainers that do not average one (1)
start per stall per month or on a horse which runs at another racetrack in a race and condition that
Arlington offers and runs.

Pretty slippery slope. Should be interesting.

If I have a horse that is a dirt horse, and I try him on the poly and runs a non descript 6th, I better be able to go to Indiana or Iowa to run on the dirt and not get 'fined' for it. LOL.

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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2013, 10:24:09 AM »

Pretty slippery slope. Should be interesting.

Particularly since some of the worst offenders at using AP as a training track for 2yo that never run or horses that go elsewhere to do their running are the out-of-state outfits that come in to AP, and you know damn well Dick isn't going to nick them.
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"There are no $7500 maiden claimers, state-bred or otherwise, at Arlington."
Chris Szulc
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2013, 01:04:38 PM »

Its at a point that no one should really know who to trust in all this.

Agree.

Quote
and is expected to average at least One (1) Start per Month for each stall allotted
during the 2013 Race Meet. A stall rent may be imposed on trainers that do not average one (1)
start per stall per month or on a horse which runs at another racetrack in a race and condition that
Arlington offers and runs.

I've seen the 1 start per month per stall before, but never the Stall Rent. That must be new?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2013, 01:07:29 PM »

I've seen the 1 start per month per stall before, but never the Stall Rent. That must be new?

Stall rents have proved immensely popular with Calder horsemen, so maybe CDI has decided to roll it out across their track network.
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »

Stall rents have proved immensely popular with Calder horsemen, so maybe CDI has decided to roll it out across their track network.

But that's only during the off-season, right? For horses stabling at CRC in the "off" CRC season (i.e. while GP runs)?

Does Keeneland charge stall rent or any else for the use of stalls during the off season? I know they're open year round.

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Scav
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2013, 03:01:15 PM »

But that's only during the off-season, right? For horses stabling at CRC in the "off" CRC season (i.e. while GP runs)?

Does Keeneland charge stall rent or any else for the use of stalls during the off season? I know they're open year round.



Think the trainer has to rent the barn YEAR ROUND, but I might be mistaken.
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Equiforce
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2013, 04:58:00 PM »

I think you might be right Terry. 

I had the same thought.

Great minds think alike Smiley
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2013, 06:33:26 PM »

AP Statement on Stall Rent:

"Horsemen may have received a text message regarding stall rent at Arlington. This is incorrect. There will not be stall rent. The stall application does contain language for the track to impose a rent on trainers who do not run in races and use the facility for training only. This policy protects the trainers who may want additional stalls, protects those trainers who do run, protects the purses for owners and protects handle. Please feel free to direct any questions to Chris Polzin. Thank you for your time we apologize for any inconvenience the stall rent message may have caused. "
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2013, 11:36:43 PM »

We must lose the mindset that Mr D is too rich already and question why he needs more.  AP now answers to CD's shareholders who demand a return on their investment every year, just as we horse owners also demand a return on our investment.  The ITHA's job is to negotiate to give us the best opportunity to make money.  Where it gets sticky is figuring out who the "us" is and what constitutes "opportunity".

One of the posters above described the situation of Illinois trainers as "brutal". Is the mandate of the ITHA to make sure that trainers can make a decent living?  Is it to make sure the owners have the best opportunity to cover their costs?  Are those both one and the same?  It occurs to me that there are times where what might be best for the trainers is not what is best for the owners. I had a discussion with a former president of the ITHA who felt that an owner (not a trainer who owns some horses) should be president of the ITHA because of this conflict of interest.  Even among owners there is a conflict between those with low level claimers and those with ALW or higher level claimers.  What is good for one group is not necessarily good for the other.  I'm not advocating or accusing, just pointing out one size does not fit all.

In most of the open ITHA meetings I've attended, "opportunity" seems to be defined by the number of races.  On paper that makes sense, but I think we have to take into account market factors.  Is there really more money to be made by running more races? Would fewer races allow for increases purses, fields, and handle?  At an ITHA meeting in the kitchen at AP several years ago when the subject of the possibility of fewer races being run for larger purses our president said it was bad for Illinois horsemen because it would attract more and better horses from out of state. He asked the question do you want to compete against Pletcher and those guys? (not the exact quote, but close)  Is it the responsibility of the ITHA to make sure that ineffective trainers or owners of noncompetitive horses can make money?  Maybe it is.

All of that rambling preamble to say it is not an easy task that we face in these and future negotiations with AP,  there are many variables.  Both sides look at this through different prisms.  For horsemen short term plans are thought of in terms of months while the corporation we are negotiating with, short term might be 3 years. We need to pay the bills next month, CDI has to forecast market trends 10 years out.  Both sides must realize that. We need to get past our first impulse to grab what we can in the present, with no regard to the future. AP has to accept we need to live now while retooling for the future. There is a deal to be had.

I personally believe that what is best for Illinois horsemen and AP is to think first about what is best for both the rebuilding of, and long term viability of racing in this state rather than the short term grabbing all we can now.  Racing will never be what it once was. Technology and more gambling and entertainment options have changed the landscape forever. We can accept that fact or be like the thousands of shuttered businesses abandoned because those involved became so entrenched they could not or would not accept the new realities facing them.

One thing is certain, successful negotiations such as these require trust and at least a bit of civility between the parties.  I'm not sure we have that now.

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APCD Dan
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2013, 12:51:28 AM »

I have said it before and I will say it again.  Beobob is one of the clearest thinkers I have seen on this board.  I hope others see this too and not try to drive him off like they have others.
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zimms1948
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2013, 07:39:54 AM »


I had to stop reading your post right there. My conversations and exchanges with him last year days before the open of the AP meet left A LOT to be desired. Any shred of questioning ITHA or his motives left him nearly yelling at me or my partners. He is as stubborn as they come.
[/quote


Who signs your paycheck?
Glen works for the ITHA and he works very hard to see that the owners and horsemen do get money that should come to us. As does the Board and Mike C.

Who are the Shareholders in CDI?  I would like to buy some stock. Maybe the ITHA should buy some. Where should we go for this opportunity?

I do not frequent Barntowire, I wish peoples' actual names were used.

I have always been amazed by the wonderful group of people employed at Arlington. I wondered if there was a class they took on how to treat people that made the customer feel so good. It was a trademark of anything Duchossois. As was the maintenance of everything. Grace and style, always.

Streetfighters don't fit. Win at all cost, doesn't fit.

The horsemen can't pay the bills. So what is the answer, only guys with stables at multiple tracks are going to be welcome? If you are not a big outfit, go away?
I am not talking about big dividends, I am talking about help the true horse people in Illinois make it through these tough times.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 07:46:29 AM by zimms1948 » Report to moderator   Logged
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