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Author Topic: Stupid IRS rules  (Read 1320 times)
The Commander
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« on: January 03, 2013, 10:46:59 PM »

So, as I mentioned in another thread. I hit the late P4 twice on Tuesday at Santa Anita thanks to a late scratch and win in the finale by the chalk. I think it paid like $412 for .50 because I ended up with around $823 overall. Anyway, the point of my crying is that instead of being treated as two .50 P4 which it essentially was, and under the $600 IRS threshold, I got  W2G'd  for the $823 as one ticket. Am I being a crybaby or is that totally unreasonable?! I have had this happen on tickets over $600 and I never *** but never where it took the combined total to get over the $600 mark. Does my rant make sense?
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Epsom Derby
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 10:56:27 PM »

300/1 or better is the USA IRS horse racing rules. According to your post, you cashed at a greater than a 300/1 rate, even though your total payout was less than 600.00US.
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The Commander
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 11:03:23 PM »

It is my understanding that it is $600 or more and greater then 300-1. I always thought both had to apply. So I don't sign when I hit $200 win bet at 2-1 or when I hit a .50 p4 for $150.
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 11:18:23 PM »

It is my understanding that it is $600 or more and greater then 300-1.

I think this is correct.

Was this through an ADW? It is my understanding that tickets on an identical sequence (in the case of a horizontal like this) can be combined as one ticket, which I think is an IRS rule so that you don't avoid taxes by splitting up your tickets into the lowest denominations. With an ADW it is easy to catch this and combine them. At the track, obviously it is not because you just stick the tickets in the machine, each one reading under $600...
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Trainer Rusty
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 11:25:13 PM »

I think even at track you'd be over threshold if late scratch was on same ticket.  if the scratch was on separate ticket that's wrong.  Ive won p4s like that and never taxed.  it has to be late scratch.
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The Commander
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 01:34:42 AM »

I think this is correct.

Was this through an ADW? It is my understanding that tickets on an identical sequence (in the case of a horizontal like this) can be combined as one ticket, which I think is an IRS rule so that you don't avoid taxes by splitting up your tickets into the lowest denominations. With an ADW it is easy to catch this and combine them. At the track, obviously it is not because you just stick the tickets in the machine, each one reading under $600...

Yep. TVG account.
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Mary Ann
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 07:08:23 PM »

This is an area where tax codes need to be simplified and made fair. In horse racing, if you win $600 or more and the win is 300 times your bet, you have to pay taxes. If you win $600 or more in the lottery, youíll have to pay taxes but, with slots and bingo, you wonít have to pay taxes until you win $1,200 or more (twice the dollar amount as horse racing and the lottery). That $1,200 benchmark does not take into consideration how much you invested. I guess I donít understand why slot and bingo players get a tax break on their wins, as compared to horse or dog racing and the lottery. In the lottery and horse racing, you can play quick picks yet every slot spin is essentially a quick pick although they include lights, bells and whistles with it.
 
A couple of months ago, I won approximately $1,235 on a slot. Iím going to have to pay taxes on it but each spin only cost me $0.50 so my win was over 2,400 times my investment although the 300 times your horse racing bet is actually a good thing for the horse player because without it, you would never see $100 win, place or show wagers (you would see fifty $2 wagers instead). Had I only won $1,199.99 on the slot, I wouldnít have to pay any taxes on it.  (I was glad about the win but not about $35 putting me into the tax-paying bracket.) I just donít see the fairness in different tax rules for various types of gambling so, in my opinion, the same win dollar amount for tax eligibility should apply for horse racing and the lottery as it does for slots and bingo. I guess these tax rules are just another advantage casinos have.
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Mary Ann
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 08:03:44 PM »

Just saw this article in DRF by Steven Crist where he also talks about the tax code needing change:

http://www.drf.com/news/steven-crist-horseplayers-avoid-fiscal-cliff-still-face-tax-abyss
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alydar66
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 10:03:12 PM »

Yep. TVG account.
I had this happen to me with an Xpressbet account. I would bet .50 tris and would hit repeat. Xpressbet concidered those identical repeats one wager. Twinspires on the other hand did not.
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RacetrackRailbird
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 06:26:08 PM »

So, as I mentioned in another thread. I hit the late P4 twice on Tuesday at Santa Anita thanks to a late scratch and win in the finale by the chalk. I think it paid like $412 for .50 because I ended up with around $823 overall. Anyway, the point of my crying is that instead of being treated as two .50 P4 which it essentially was, and under the $600 IRS threshold, I got  W2G'd  for the $823 as one ticket.
 Does my rant make sense?


No, your rant does not make sense in this case (beyond "... morally").   You did not get W2G'd "as one ticket" - you were said to have had "Identical tickets" on the same winning sequence.    As in     a/b/c/winning horse D,  (which the other became upon the win by the favorite).

Had you been at the track, and IF the two investments were on two separate pieces of paper, you could have skirted the tax form.


But "Identical Tickets" are legally obligated to be aggregated (even though some who have them, at the track, might go so far as to stuff each individual ticket into different SAM machines to keep it from happening in practice)
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Mary Ann
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 03:20:40 PM »

Racetrackrail, I'm not disagreeing with what you said but what's the purpose of a lot of tote machines having a "Repeat the Bet" button. Seems to me this encourages or makes it easier to produce multiple identical tickets which could be signers.
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RacetrackRailbird
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 07:41:18 PM »

what's the purpose of a lot of tote machines having a "Repeat the Bet" button.


  this... makes it easier to produce multiple identical tickets


Should I be in awe???


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bjchapin1
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 09:48:53 PM »

. Had I only won $1,199.99 on the slot, I wouldnít have to pay any taxes on it.

Careful here Mary Ann.....had you won $1199.99 on a slot you still owe taxes on it when you file your tax return, you just wouldn't be subject to any withholding at source. Any gambling winnings (in excess of gambling losses) is taxable income.

(Obviously it is hard for IRS to track upon audit if you are betting cash at the track. But every slot pull is recorded on your players card if using one. Many an IRS auditor will ask for your slot player records for a casino that they see a W-2G reported on a return they are auditing.)
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Mary Ann
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 10:32:16 PM »

Thanks, bjchapin1, I do understand that. I do have a player's card and will get a statement from the casino for the wins and losses. Will also get a statement for my husband's wins and losses too. I'm sure our losses have exceeded our wins at the casino. Anyone who thinks they are really going to get ahead by playing slots is delusional. We do it for entertainment and know better than to be high rollers. The paper trail might be a reason Twin Spires eliminated the majority of their player cards. Most people are not going to have a lot of signers either that would identify them as cash horse players. I've also been keeping a journal of wins and losses for the horse races, along with losing tickets and programs.
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RacetrackRailbird
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 03:32:44 PM »

As a note of potential interest,  those  "player cards" are mainly used by the establishment to keep detailed track of how much each customer (gambles) during various periods of time.  At the end of, say, a typical month, the establishment prints reports containing dozens of pages listing the gross (gambling) done by each customer, from most to least, and that seems to have quite a great deal of pull regarding who gets what 'perks' (both the ones you sign-up for, and the unadvertised special privileges) if there are any.

Maybe TwinSpires came to realize that they just weren't gaining enough insight and data about who their best customers are and about how much they (gambled) to offset the seeming 'perks' they were offering to their customers.

Those "player rewards" groups/clubs do not come to customers at no cost, regardless of how easy (and free) it is to sign-up.  Those entities are measuring you and measuring your worth to them, and you are allowing this.

(I'm sure some of those who take great pleasure in belonging to the player rewards programs  are the same folks who use Priceline.com for great prices on hotel rooms and then complain online about being treated like "Priceline scum" upon arrival)


.
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