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Author Topic: BIGM........................ TO START THE ABC'S OF RACING  (Read 2756 times)
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« on: November 05, 2012, 01:40:13 PM »

NO MORE CONDITIONS...


JUST A,,CLASS HORSES,,

B CLASS HORSES AND C,,CLASS HORSES.....

ETC,,ETC,,


JEFFREY ,,THINKS,,BIGGER AND BETTER HORSES WILL FILL MORE SPOTS...THIS WAY..

LETS GIVE JEFF'S IDEAS A CHANCE HEZ TRYIN HIS BEST



KEEP IT  UP  JEFF,.,,GREAT THINKING ALWAYS IMPROVIN HARNESS RACIN FOR OUR FAIR STATE thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 01:42:05 PM »

RACE SECREATRY..WILL DETERMINE WHAT KIND OF CLASS DA HORSE FALLS IN TO




A LIST HORSE CANT RACE AGAINST,,C CLASS HORSES,,,ITS A VERY GOOD IDEA,,WHEN YOU ACTAULLY THINK ABOUT IT



KEEP IT UP JEFFREY,,,,YOU,ARE DA GREATEST
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2012, 01:59:31 PM »

RACE SECREATRY..WILL DETERMINE WHAT KIND OF CLASS DA HORSE FALLS IN TO





Yes the race Secretary rules all.
IMHO, That will again be the problem not the solution.
We will return to the thrilling days of yesteryear when he who had the most (paid for) friends in the office won the most races.

While we are at it lets bring back high wheeled wooden sulkies  and pool ques for head poles.
IMHO, Age, gait, sex, and money are the only fair ways to classify horses, not friends in high places.
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2012, 02:01:48 PM »

Much of this comes down to accurately classifying horses. The thoroughbreds moved comfortably into conditioned racing ages ago and stayed there; harness racing, on the other hand, spent more than twenty years dealing with internecine warfare between the establishment—HTA—which favored conditioned racing and the Metropolitan New York tracks and numerous others that preferred alphabet classifications.

In 1963 HTA declared that all tracks should switch to conditioned racing, but Freehold and Brandywine went back to ABC racing in short order and Yonkers, Roosevelt and Monticello eventually joined them. With ABC racing, the racing secretary holds all the power; if he says your pacer is a B1 horse, that’s where he will race. Some horsemen liked this, while others preferred the personal control conditioned racing gave them over their stock. After the switch was made it became apparent that some horsemen weren’t so adept at reading conditions and placing their horses accordingly. The judgment calls that had resided in the racing secretaries office now belonged to them, and some didn’t prosper under that system.

Fans who had become accustomed to ABC racing found it easy to read a program and figure out which horses were moving up or down, or staying on the same level. Suddenly, under conditioned racing, they were required to size up horses from different tracks with different purse and competition levels, and figure out how they fit into races drawn up according to wins and money. Some vowed to never set foot inside a harness track again. What many failed to realize was that horsemen had become adept at maneuvering their horses through this system so as to hit a periodic sweet spot. Between errors in judgment and personal bias on the part of the racing secretary, and duplicity on the part of horsemen, the bettors weren’t being as well-served as they thought by this seemingly simple system. On the other hand, a skilled racing secretary could take a wide angle view of an aged horse and place him according to what he proved he was over an extended period of time, so each system had an upside.

The main problem for racing secretaries and bettors in analyzing conditioned racing being placing a relative value on horses from different tracks, Ed Parker, racing secretary at Monticello, drew up a chart of purse values from all tracks and correlated them with a class value. This chart appeared in the program every night. Some found it helpful, but it was still kind of messy.

Finally Roosevelt went back to conditioned racing around 1984/85 and that turned the tide. Having ABC racing at Yonkers and conditioned racing at Roosevelt, concurrently, was a nightmare.

Some think the distance handicap system employed Down Under is the fairest way to go, while others prefer the post position handicap system used at the New York tracks from time to time over the years. It’s a most inexact science, and until someone comes up with a much better system for grouping horses the sorts of issues raised in this thread will continue to arise.

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 02:06:58 PM »

its a system which, however, can be abused. when in place at yonkers and roosevelt it became apparent there was a noticeable class system in the ranks of trainers relative to favoritism by the race office.

the classes were c3,2,1  b3,2,1  a3,2,1 then preferred, invite, open. a winning horse would go up in class after the win (off tracks not included). the problem was a "peter principle" thing. once a horse stopped being competitive (1,2,3) how long before he starts getting class relief ?

steve star and larry mallar had no set criteria as to when a horse would drop down. it was totally up to them.

being one of the "fair haired" guys was a big advantage.
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 02:10:15 PM »

IF RACE SECR,,,RUNS IT CORRECTLY


IT WILL PROVIDE FOR GREAT AND COMPETIVE RACIN
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 02:25:37 PM »

PERSONALLY I RATHER CONDITION RACING ,,,,,NOT ABC,,,,,THIS ONLY WORKS IF RACE  SEC   IS FAIR TO ALL WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 02:28:53 PM »

RELAX,,MR FCKIN BOSSMAN


HOW DA FCK U KNOW DA SECRATRY IS NOT A FAIR GUY...



DALRAE,,STOP IT ,,THIS A SERIOUS THREAD


NONE OF YOU SHANANAGAINS
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 02:30:55 PM »

IDK,, BUT EVERY DECISION HE MAKES PISSES SOMEONE OFF,,,,,,THATS HOW RUMORS START
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The Wej
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 02:49:47 PM »

We basically have a combination of both now when the race secretary puts conditions on the conditions such as "must have started 4 of last 6 in New York or winners over x amount ineligible."
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2012, 03:00:04 PM »

Since judgment calls rule the day under ABC racing there can be some nasty confrontations between the racing secretary and the horsemen.

Around 1970 Ed Parker classified little Robin Dundee (dam of Genghis Khan) as a AA pacer. She had gone off at 30/1 in her previous start and finished out. Cobb asked him to drop the mare and Parker told Cobb, “You know you didn’t try with her the last time.”

Cobb was very upset about his integrity being questioned and lodged a complaint with the Racing Commission, but nothing came of it. He boycotted Yonkers after that. He’d race at Roosevelt then move on to Chicago, Massachusetts, Delaware….

You can look forward to plenty of face-offs like that at The Big M.
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2012, 03:15:51 PM »

it will be interesting to see what kind of level "1st time coleman" or "1st time garcia herrara" horses will be placed

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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 03:45:21 PM »

Hey, I hope it works, but I dont see how it can any better than the race secretary doing his job in the first place. There are too many NW conditions for racehorses as it is. Make people put a price on their horses and emphasize the NW(2,3,4) young horses again, which are THE most important group for owners and breeders. The NW3/100K life was a STAPLE of the Big M....raced for a giant purse and people made money. That was a serious class for really good solid horses and that class almost by itself separated 3 & 4 yr olds for where they belonged. Too many series and not enough "open" NW's are hurting the big M not helping....we will see. Just my 2 cents.
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Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 04:05:20 PM »

I can't believe they are racing only 82 days. That is a short meet and if the purse structure is short
they still won't have full fields.
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »

If it makes the program easier to read...go for it....  The program might as well be chinese for new fans..... make it easy as A, B , C ..... Jeff G will not put up with fights anf the items mentioned.... Jason knows racing and will be a asset....hope it works.....   I like it.....   



Sulky
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 04:35:57 PM »

Only as good as the Race Secretary wants it to be. He has to watch every race.  If a horse is parked or locked in he stays put, If the horse goes a big trip, wins by a hose he does not have to go up...  Problems arise when a stable of top horses enters.. They have 2 very legitimate open horses.. One goes in open, the other gets the softer spot in the next class down. If they happen to have a open ll horse he will be down in the next class as the open l from that stable/owner is already backed in there..  VD switched back to this classification. Rick Plano win 6 one night as most were racing a class lower than where they should be..(shuffled down) No knocks about trainer/owner doing that id the RS goes along..   One trainer enters 2 very nice horses at Saratoga every Sat. One gets in soft..  On the 1/2 it does leave the option of handicapping the race for PP`s that helps a little..  Again, only as good as the RS is...or wants to be....
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 04:41:11 PM »

Jeff Gural is very easy to contact....Send him EMail....He answers them too....

jgural@ngkf.com


If you dont believe the system will work....let him know !     He takes fan input serious.....believe me...




Sulky
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 04:45:40 PM »

WHY DONT PEOPLE JUST RELAX,,AND SEE IF THE THINGS

MR,,GURAL IMPLEMENTS ACTUALLY SERVE A GOOD PURPOSE......


I THINK HIZ IDEAS,,ARE BETTER THAN DA LAME ASSE SHT WE GOT IN CHICAGO







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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2012, 04:57:23 PM »

WHY DONT PEOPLE JUST RELAX,,AND SEE IF THE THINGS

MR,,GURAL IMPLEMENTS ACTUALLY SERVE A GOOD PURPOSE......


I THINK HIZ IDEAS,,ARE BETTER THAN DA LAME ASSE SHT WE GOT IN CHICAGO






because this has been done before and people hated it, most are very skeptical
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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2012, 05:00:58 PM »

MORE INFO


The Meadowlands will introduce ABC Racing when the track re-opens on Dec. 28. ABC Racing categorizes horses into A, B and C rankings, replacing conditions determined by money earnings. This permits the racing secretary to create races in which the entrants are most competitive and equal in ability.

 

After a meeting of Meadowlands chairman Jeff Gural, Standardbred Breeders & Owners Association of New Jersey president Tom Luchento and Hall of Fame driver John Campbell, it was agreed to move forward with the new format.

 

"We think the best racing can be accomplished by classifying horses by their ability and not their money earnings,” Luchento said. "The goal is to have full fields and competitive fields. We think ABC Racing will facilitate both objectives.”

 

"We are going to experiment with classified racing (ABC) versus conditioned racing as a way to classify horses,” said Meadowlands director of racing and racing secretary Peter Koch. "We are hopeful this method will yield even more competitive racing for our fans. We will still have non-winners of two races lifetime as well as non-winners of three races lifetime for the younger horses and claiming races at every level.

 

"Classified racing has horses evaluated by the racing secretary and moved up and down in class based upon performance,” Koch noted. "We look forward to bringing the public the great racing product the Meadowlands has always had.”

 

The Meadowlands resumes live racing on Dec. 28 and 29 and, subject to the approval of the New Jersey Racing Commission, will have a 2013 schedule from Jan. 3 to Aug. 3 plus Nov. 23 to Dec. 28 for a total of 82 dates. (SBOANJ/Meadowlands)

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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2012, 05:17:48 PM »

IF RACE SECR,,,RUNS IT CORRECTLY


IT WILL PROVIDE FOR GREAT AND COMPETIVE RACIN


And pigs will fly. Taxes will be eliminated. Lawyers are good. Politicians are honest. AND THE RACE SECRETARY WILL RUN IT CORRECTLY.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy About the same chance as the rest of the statements.
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2012, 05:31:41 PM »


And pigs will fly. Taxes will be eliminated. Lawyers are good. Politicians are honest. AND THE RACE SECRETARY WILL RUN IT CORRECTLY.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy About the same chance as the rest of the statements.


I'M AN OPTIMISTIC PERSON,,,


I BELEIVE EVERYONE IS GENERALLY A GOOD PERSON,,,,

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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2012, 06:24:14 PM »

no you dont
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2012, 06:25:32 PM »

no you dont


SOME TIMES I BELIEVE MY OWN BULLSHT
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2012, 07:06:31 PM »

Gural tried it at Tioga it was a flop. He tried it at Vernon it was a flop.
I'm sure this will work at the Meadowlands.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2012, 07:19:30 PM »

When horses race on an actual circuit, mixing ABC racing and conditioned racing becomes a problem for the fans, tracks and horsemen. That happened in the mid-sixties when Yonkers transitioned to conditioned racing and Roosevelt stayed with letter classifications.

Brandywine lost its USTA membership in 1963 when it went to ABC racing, but they were reinstated the following year when they went back to the conditioned model.

There was a lot of griping about it, so three years later Joe De Frank instituted a hybrid system. Horses five and up went in letter class races, while colts and fillies raced in conditioned races, and four-year-olds had an option. De Frank was big on writing claiming races so that became a major component of the plan.

Since Brandywine’s sister track in the Delaware Valley—Liberty Bell—was a non-ABC track, issues came up. Eventually all tracks made the switch.

Since folks tended to exaggerate the value of their horses when placing them in claimers, the correlation between letter classification and claiming price, based on the purse raced for, didn’t generally work out. A-3 pacers and five and up $20,000 claimers raced for $6,000, but the A-3 pacers would generally beat the claimers racing for the same purse.

Any trainer who doesn’t like the letter the racing secretary hangs on his horse can place his own value on him by sticking him in a claimer. But to do that you need to have claiming races written for all but the top classes. Five of the twelve races on tonight’s card at YR are claimers, and six of the twelve tomorrow and Thursday. That figure drops to four on Friday. There were only two claiming races this past Saturday night. Koch will have a much easier time pulling that off during the winter meet.
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« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2012, 08:05:06 PM »

"Koch will have a much easier time pulling that off during the winter meet.''He may have an easier time but let's face it the Meadowlands winter meet is crap and I don't see the ABC system doing anything but making it more of a joke than it already is.
I guess we will see.

 
 
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2012, 06:10:42 AM »

MY POINT EXACTLY
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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2012, 10:01:53 AM »

Clean up the game or its done, and give the betting customer a chance you bunch of pigs!
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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 10:55:46 AM »

it will be interesting to see what kind of level "1st time coleman" or "1st time garcia herrara" horses will be placed



Talk about giving the racing secretary too much power....the horses will be placed on their current form....not their potential.....of course the point is basically moot since most of them will be in claimers anyway.....the people who think this system wont work have never seen owners and trainers in the paddock with their calculators out figuring out how much money a horse can make in this race and still drop down......that makes for great racing.....though figuring out who can get class relief and who is stuck in the class for a while is the #2 handicapping tool available to the player today
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SHOWTIME!!!
MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2012, 12:03:25 PM »

VERY TRUE MY FRIEND
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2012, 03:05:06 PM »

The goal is to make the raaces more exciting for the average fan....   There were too many holes at the summer meet...   The Banked turns got robbed....  I think it will work this time...
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2012, 05:14:52 PM »

Harness racing moved away from the ABC system was a major improvement at the time for all the reasons many of you mentioned. So why are they really going back to it? is it simply to make it easier for beginners to understand the game?
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2012, 05:49:51 PM »

Yes
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2012, 06:21:45 PM »

THEY DONT KNOW THE C LUB MED IS DEAD
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2012, 06:32:57 PM »

Yes
Then if thats the case, and clearly the sport of harness racing is suffering, anything to bring in new fans, or make it easier for them to understand is not a bad thing.
If all of us have stuck around this long, they arent going to lose us...JMHO
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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2012, 07:10:36 PM »

Nobody running a racetrack has a clue how to get new fans that actually wager! Goodluck to the horsemen if you are depending on these clowns to save your sport!

Heres a carrot for the Big M idiots carrot
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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2012, 07:26:56 PM »

Gural tried it at Tioga it was a flop. He tried it at Vernon it was a flop.
I'm sure this will work at the Meadowlands.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
I GIVE DA MAN CREDIT,,,FOUR TRYIN,,,BUT THIS WONT HELP NUTTIN,,,WE NEED CHANGES,,,BUT NOT THEES KIND,,,
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2012, 02:24:22 PM »

HIGHER PURSES MEAN BETTER HORSES,,,,,,W/OUT A BETTER PRODUCT NOTHING ELSE MATTERS
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« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2012, 03:32:05 PM »

I gave all you whiners Jeff Gurals Email..... did anyone tell him it was a bad idea?    telling people on this forum is worthless......


I like the ABC's    The program is too hard to learn....give the beginners something easy to understand.....   how about spanish programs?   We need to embrace the latino harness fan.....or we are done



we are done.....but I mean more done,,,,,, head shake
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2012, 12:15:51 PM »

HIGHER PURSES MEAN BETTER HORSES,,,,,,W/OUT A BETTER PRODUCT NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

Bullshit! Big punters aren't wagering on the open races or 2 and 3 yr old stake finals!  bang head
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 12:59:23 PM »

I am pretty sure that ABC is the same type of classification they use in DOG RACING thumbs down

Its like trying to turn chess into checkers.....still think they should cater to the horse player & not the average joe.
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 03:55:02 PM »

BETTER PRODUCT=BETTER HANDLE
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 04:23:23 PM »

More Latinos/Asians/Diversity=Better handle
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2012, 04:28:56 PM »

"Classified racing has horses evaluated by the racing secretary and moved up and down in class based upon performance,” Koch noted. "We look forward to bringing the public the great racing product the Meadowlands has always had.”

Idk, giving a person or ppl the ability to tell owners what races they can and can't enter based on their personal opinion of horses ability sure seems like a bad idea to me
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2012, 02:30:16 PM »

More Latinos/Asians/Diversity=Better handle

Why don't you focus on where it all went wrong? Your previous customers told you, but nobody did anything to fix it and now all you clowns are making more changes and pissing more customers off. Every track owner wants to make money from simulcasting and running a short meet with big purses. All that does is help the horsemen and kills the game further as more customers will exit.
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2012, 02:50:23 PM »

DRENCH ,,,VERY ACCURATE,,,,,BOTTOM LINE IS THEIR MAIN CONCERN
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« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2012, 06:40:28 AM »

NY Area Casinos....   can you tell me that these casinos are not filled with asians ??    Asians love to gamble....   I have been going to the Big M for years and years......  The place is 50% old italian guys.....30% latino/black  ...19% is young mixed crowd that looked confused..... 1% filipino/asain .      The growth is with diversity.....  those italian guys are kicking the bucket every day,,,


**** This poll is not scientific     head shake



 
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MR.DALRAE
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« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2012, 12:00:17 PM »

REALLY
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 04:46:19 PM »

 nyah   but anyone that goes to the Big M knows im right...!!!!      I can smell the egg rolls already..ahhhhhhhhh
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2012, 05:00:55 PM »

ASIANS ONLY LOVE T-BREDS
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2012, 05:10:37 PM »

ASIANS ONLY LOVE T-BREDS

i know a few t-bred guys who only love asians
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2012, 05:37:04 PM »

Jeff Gural is very easy to contact....Send him EMail....He answers them too....

jgural@ngkf.com


If you dont believe the system will work....let him know !     He takes fan input serious.....believe me...




Sulky
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I would love to see some of these guys send him a email instead of talking crap about the man such comments like "snake oil salesmen"!
But obviously they are just blow hearts hiding behind screen names!
I don't think those type appreciate the attempts Mr Grual is trying to make a difference!
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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »

I MARRIED AN ASIAN,,,,,AND VERY HAPPY
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2012, 04:42:38 AM »

Asians love gamling....PERIOD !     filipinos like harness racing.....   If the sport had hot asian announcers.....more asians might like the sport....    Asians are like all people....they like action....    s e x and gambling.....    and bus vouchers.... hehe
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2012, 04:44:51 AM »

I would love to see some of these guys send him a email instead of talking crap about the man such comments like "snake oil salesmen"!
But obviously they are just blow hearts hiding behind screen names!
I don't think those type appreciate the attempts Mr Grual is trying to make a difference!








Jeff replies to all emails... unless they are unprofessional.....  He respects the "old timers" opinions...as well as fresh , new ideas.....
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2013

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2012

Breeders' Cup
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Arlington Million
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Illinois Derby

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