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Author Topic: Pool Manipulation  (Read 5711 times)
TKs Skipper
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« Reply #125 on: October 05, 2012, 11:41:34 AM »

It can take up to 90 seconds from the time any bet is placed for it to be reflective in the odds. Most odds change every 45 seconds. The fastest you could possibly see it reflected is about 16 seconds. That would be if you caught every green light, so to speak
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Yimmy
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« Reply #126 on: October 05, 2012, 11:45:39 AM »

I see... so I can chat on the 'puter in absolute real time with someone from fargin' Australia (as I have done umpteen times), but somehow racetrack computers are so slow that... well, you know the rest.

Okay, fine.

AGAIN...  even assuming this to be true, it goes right back to my original question:

"If this inescapable 20-second delay is factual, then, yes, the pools should be closed at least 20 seconds early.  Capisce?"






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TKs Skipper
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« Reply #127 on: October 05, 2012, 11:50:11 AM »

Yea yummy. The bets are not transmitted in real time. Even though we put a man on the moon.closing pills a bit earlier would hamper the gate callers but would hurt handle so its not happening.no big deal to me. If youcant figure out who is leaving before the race,you shouldn't be gambling
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FVRedhot
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« Reply #128 on: October 05, 2012, 11:57:04 AM »

TKS you are correct in the if you can't handicap without watching gate you shouldn't be gambling notion, but at the same time, I guess we might be smart enough to beat those that merely see who is leaving and take advantage of the speed we know is completely dead and hope they hit repeat-peat-peat-peat-peat!

And it doesn't surprise me at all that we put people on the moon yet can't handle tote issues properly, because in the same light, we are a country of fat, sluggish, morons, yet had a huge head start over many other nations in the past century.  The American character is atrocious.
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« Reply #129 on: October 05, 2012, 12:03:43 PM »

And it doesn't surprise me at all that we put people on the moon yet can't handle tote issues properly, because in the same light, we are a country of fat, sluggish, morons, yet had a huge head start over many other nations in the past century.  The American character is atrocious.

Who eradicated polio and beat Communism and Nazism?  The French?
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« Reply #130 on: October 05, 2012, 12:27:11 PM »

Did I mention our head start last century?  Did that imply that we HAD a wonderful character?  I believe your examples all were pre-21st century.
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Yimmy
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« Reply #131 on: October 05, 2012, 12:31:34 PM »

That's logical... we were great then, but we suck NOW... GWB never sent money to subsaharan Africa to combat AIDS... my bad.  Steve Jobs, Bill Gates... Canadians, right?
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FVRedhot
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« Reply #132 on: October 05, 2012, 12:49:19 PM »

A handful of 311,000,000ish.  Sweet!  The vast majority of Americans are fat, selfish, blowhards with little to offer that consume beyond their means and beyond reasonableness.  That is my perception and it will hardly change.  But I love the opportunities we have, just not the fact that I have to sit next to these people.  I'm not sure we were ever "great".  I might be hesitant to put that lable on anything.  But at least we WERE a country that could ration things, despite how deserving a person felt.  (another great facet of our society.  Hey I work hard so I can consume anything I want...super attitude).
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Blue Chip55
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« Reply #133 on: October 05, 2012, 12:57:07 PM »

Yea yummy. The bets are not transmitted in real time. Even though we put a man on the moon.closing pills a bit earlier would hamper the gate callers but would hurt handle so its not happening.no big deal to me. If youcant figure out who is leaving before the race,you shouldn't be gambling
I guess that applies for knowing who is going to jump as well
Nobody knows whos doing what at the start of the race
But betting at the quarter gives you a small edge as we now know
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #134 on: October 05, 2012, 01:04:03 PM »

Gee, I learned much of what I needed to know from watching races (quarter-horse and very short sprints) at Ruidoso.  If this quote-unquote 20-second rule were fixed in stone, you'd have odds-changes there not only toward the end of races, but in some cases after their completion.

But they don't.  Not one. 

Gee, I wonder why... 

I've seen the odds on a tbred race at Arlington change after the race was over, as money from some far-flung hub trickled in.
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« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2012, 01:06:11 PM »

i will postulate that the late cash you saw was pretty accurate
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #136 on: October 05, 2012, 01:09:23 PM »

In a $6000 win pool with a 20% takeout, a 2-5 horse would have $3428 wagered on him.

If $1713 of that $3428 were to be cancelled, the 2-5 horse would become a 1-1 horse.

Do we know for a fact that any money at all was canceled on the horse, and the win pool shrank accordingly? Usually, a pool takes in a large percent of its money tight before the bell, and money goes ON other horses as bettors see value from an overbet favorite.
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TKs Skipper
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« Reply #137 on: October 05, 2012, 01:10:55 PM »

I guess that applies for knowing who is going to jump as well
Nobody knows whos doing what at the start of the race
But betting at the quarter gives you a small edge as we now know
[/quote

I am talking about gate callers and the reason why odds change 20 seconds into the race. Not talking about betting after the pools close at the 1/4. That's your theory. Not mine
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #138 on: October 05, 2012, 01:12:54 PM »

i will postulate that the late cash you saw was pretty accurate

Yes, of course it was. I even contacted the State mutuels auditor about that one, and he said they had verified that the wagers from the source were IN the pipeline before the bell, and just got "stuck" in transmission at some store-and-forward hub that had trouble communicating with the host (AP). Therefore, they accepted all those wagers.
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Blue Chip55
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« Reply #139 on: October 05, 2012, 01:13:12 PM »

Do we know for a fact that any money at all was canceled on the horse, and the win pool shrank accordingly? Usually, a pool takes in a large percent of its money tight before the bell, and money goes ON other horses as bettors see value from an overbet favorite.

The horse broke at the quarter
and yes thats when it was cancelled
It all was switched to the two who lost anyway
Four of us were there from here who saw this.....We're not all crazy
Only me
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Yimmy
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« Reply #140 on: October 05, 2012, 01:27:26 PM »

A handful of 311,000,000ish.  Sweet!  The vast majority of Americans are fat, selfish, blowhards with little to offer that consume beyond their means and beyond reasonableness.  That is my perception and it will hardly change.  But I love the opportunities we have, just not the fact that I have to sit next to these people.  I'm not sure we were ever "great".  I might be hesitant to put that lable on anything.  But at least we WERE a country that could ration things, despite how deserving a person felt.  (another great facet of our society.  Hey I work hard so I can consume anything I want...super attitude).

Have you ever heard of "Europe?"
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SON OF JOR-EL
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« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2012, 01:30:05 PM »

Have you ever heard of "Europe?"
Great 80's band!!!!!!
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2012, 01:30:34 PM »

The horse broke at the quarter
and yes thats when it was cancelled

It all was switched to the two who lost anyway

So 29 seconds into the race the horse broke, and then you saw the odds change. Did you see this change immediately?

At 29 seconds into a race, they're still doing the final few pool adjustments with money that came in (or was canceled) before the race even went off. Money taken off at 29 seconds into the race wouldn't affect the toteboard until some time later, up to maybe 45 seconds.

Quote
Four of us were there from here who saw this.....We're not all crazy
Only me

Well, if you think this is real, that really SHOULD be reported to the State, then, and ask them for an audit of that mutuel pool.
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Yimmy
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« Reply #143 on: October 05, 2012, 01:40:02 PM »

"If you didn't make a formal complaint, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!"

Terry, the AG's office (at least in my state) has a squillion more important things to concern itself with than mutuel-pool shenanigans.

"Gee... Medicaid fraud... or an open window at Picknose Downs?"
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #144 on: October 05, 2012, 01:47:28 PM »

"If you didn't make a formal complaint, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!"

Terry, the AG's office (at least in my state) has a squillion more important things to concern itself with than mutuel-pool shenanigans.

"Gee... Medicaid fraud... or an open window at Picknose Downs?"

 doh

What a defeatist un-American attitude.

You don't have to report it to the AG, though you could. Your state racing commission has people whose job it is specifically to monitor the integrity of the parimutuel pools. That's your starting point.

Kvetching about it on this forum isn't going to solve anything or produce "real" answers as to what happened, and that's something we can count on 100%.
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« Reply #145 on: October 05, 2012, 02:05:03 PM »

It's not defeatist; it's realistic.   Do you know how many times clients tell me what the law *should* do... and how many times I have to tell them that, well, yes, In A Perfect World, etc., etc.?

New York has plenty of perfectly terrible laws on the books, but there's not much I can do about them. On a larger scale, the lobbying group representing my innarests invariably gets shouted down by the insurance lobby in Albany.   Such is life.

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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #146 on: October 05, 2012, 02:37:40 PM »

It's not defeatist; it's realistic.

No, it's defeatist. When you're to the point of not doing anything (but whining on an Internet forum) because you think actually doing something or reporting something will have no effect, then you're defeated.

Here's part of the duties of the New Jersey Racing Commission:

"Activities included in the regulation of racing activities are the oversight of pari-mutuel wagering, supervising pari-mutuel operations at all the tracks and granting permits for the conduct of running the thoroughbred and standardbred race meetings in the state where pari-mutuel wagering is allowed. "

They will employ an auditor of some sort to oversee those parimutuel operations (and pools).

Here's the contact info page for the New Jersey Racing Commission (Office of the AG):

http://www.nj.gov/oag/racing/contact.html

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:44:22 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #147 on: October 05, 2012, 02:50:07 PM »

No, it's defeatist. When you're to the point of not doing anything (but whining on an Internet forum) because you think actually doing something or reporting something will have no effect, then you're defeated.

Here's part of the duties of the New Jersey Racing Commission:

"Activities included in the regulation of racing activities are the oversight of pari-mutuel wagering, supervising pari-mutuel operations at all the tracks and granting permits for the conduct of running the thoroughbred and standardbred race meetings in the state where pari-mutuel wagering is allowed. "

They will employ an auditor of some sort to oversee those parimutuel operations (and pools).

Here's the contact info page for the New Jersey Racing Commission (Office of the AG):

http://www.nj.gov/oag/racing/contact.html



i have reported a few things over the past 10-15 years and it always falls on deaf ears. 
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #148 on: October 05, 2012, 02:55:04 PM »

i have reported a few things over the past 10-15 years and it always falls on deaf ears. 

So then why would you continue to play New Jersey racetracks?

Sometimes you have to make a formal request, like emp does. The two times I've seen something I did not understand in Illinois pools, and formally inquired about those, I got back immediate response from the IRB auditor who told me exactly what happened, and why, with all the numbers. It's their job, and they have to respond to public inquiries. 
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« Reply #149 on: October 05, 2012, 02:57:20 PM »

So then why would you continue to play New Jersey racetracks?

Sometimes you have to make a formal request, like emp does. The two times I've seen something I did not understand in Illinois pools, and formally inquired about those, I got back immediate response from the IRB auditor who told me exactly what happened, and why, with all the numbers. It's their job, and they have to respond to public inquiries. 

will you write the requests for me when i see something?
i am not a good writer.
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