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Author Topic: pena feeling confident  (Read 2675 times)
sam
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« on: September 05, 2012, 03:58:56 AM »

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=100414
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may the horse be with you
FVRedhot
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 09:47:08 AM »

Now that it is "rapt" up, hell, I'm feeling great too.  RAPT that shit up.


"Pena was delighted with the way the case progressed, saying it was rapt up quickly on the final day."

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Old and Slow
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 09:57:54 AM »

The article kept my wrapped attention.
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I know one thing for sure.  Indecision may or may not be my problem.
jdizigg
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 10:06:18 AM »

all defendants say the same thing.  Notice pena hasnt been proclaiming innocense lately, they have stuck to loop holes as their defense.  crossedfingers they put this guy and all the other cheaters on ice.  How nice and great would it be for the honost trainers to get a fair shot again.  I know this as someone who loves harnessracing more than 99.9 percent of everybody it would become a great sport again that everyone wanted to come see and watch...MLB did it.  It might take downsizing and a lot of thinking outside the box to get it done, but i can dream right...
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newjackcity
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 10:46:25 AM »

Now that it is "rapt" up, hell, I'm feeling great too.  RAPT that shit up.


"Pena was delighted with the way the case progressed, saying it was rapt up quickly on the final day."


Think sam proof read this article.  laughing guy laughing guy
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oscar r
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »

1/9he did,,,,b4 he SHOWed us
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hungry
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 03:24:02 PM »

If this guy is reinstated, i will cease to wager 1 dollar on harness racing.

Now, as far as his innocence or guilt goes, that has nothing to do with my decision to stop wagering on harness racing. The decision will be a purely handicapping based one...when a trainer influences outcomes in such drastic manner, whether its innocent or not, it just forces me to take my  ball and go home.

Innocent or guilty, i could care less, all i know is that he turns horse racing into trainer racing and i'm not interested in betting trainer racing. Im not interested in handicapping the humans, i want to handicap the horses with the humans being a 'small factor' in the process.



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VicD
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 03:29:48 PM »

If this guy is reinstated, i will cease to wager 1 dollar on harness racing.

Now, as far as his innocence or guilt goes, that has nothing to do with my decision to stop wagering on harness racing. The decision will be a purely handicapping based one...when a trainer influences outcomes in such drastic manner, whether its innocent or not, it just forces me to take my  ball and go home.

Innocent or guilty, i could care less, all i know is that he turns horse racing into trainer racing and i'm not interested in betting trainer racing. Im not interested in handicapping the humans, i want to handicap the horses with the humans being a 'small factor' in the process.





Well said.
Not guilty doesn't mean he's not doing anything, it just means he hasn't been detected doing anything wrong.
I stopped betting harness racing last year. This guy has been mooning the people that support the sport for too long now and I don't wish to see his ass in my face.
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dennycrane
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 03:42:00 PM »

we may not know the whole story but it is in black and white the he treated many many horses inside the cutoff date..1700 times to be exact..that is breaking the rules ..period
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Yimmy
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 03:52:07 PM »

It's not a criminal case, "guilt" and "innocence" are technically not the correct terms, and he's a petitioner rather than a defendant.  I've posted it 30 times here at least... this is a CIVIL matter.
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hungry
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 04:12:35 PM »

Well said.
Not guilty doesn't mean he's not doing anything, it just means he hasn't been detected doing anything wrong.
I stopped betting harness racing last year. This guy has been mooning the people that support the sport for too long now and I don't wish to see his ass in my face.

Thanks Vic.

I have to tell you that i would rather have a cheater in the sport who wins 15%, doesnt move horses up 3 seconds overnight, cheats on a very small scale and blends in with a handful of other competent trainers as opposed to an honest trainer who figured out how to be a horse whisperer and is moving up horses 3 seconds overnight honestly. Give me the small time crook who blends in and doesnt  'wreck' the handicpaping process over the 'honest' guy who seems to crush everyone he comes in contact with.

Honesty doesnt mean a heck of a lot to me if the honest trainer is so far superior to his competition that he becomes too much of an influence in the day to day operations.

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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2012, 05:49:04 PM »

we may not know the whole story but it is in black and white the he treated many many horses inside the cutoff date..1700 times to be exact..that is breaking the rules ..period



What part of this discussion did you not understand? EVERY trainer (who actually matters) DOES THESE THINGS!!!! It really doesnt matter if he's exonerated or not...they can exclude anyone for ANY reason. This is a total dog & pony show the NYSRB cant possibly win under these circumstances...
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Yimmy
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 06:00:37 PM »

First off, you don't know that *every* trainer does that stuff.  A lot may do it, but that doesn't excuse the rule violations, nor does it constitute any sort of defense at law.  In any event, the "hey, everybody does this shit" argument is one which more than justifies the sad and long-standing exodus of bettors away from the harness tracks... a VERY shoddy advertisement for the sport, such as it is.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 06:21:06 PM »

First off, you don't know that *every* trainer does that stuff.  A lot may do it, but that doesn't excuse the rule violations, nor does it constitute any sort of defense at law.  In any event, the "hey, everybody does this shit" argument is one which more than justifies the sad and long-standing exodus of bettors away from the harness tracks... a VERY shoddy advertisement for the sport, such as it is.


It isnt about that as a defense...and as a matter of fact, I do know that every trainer that wins more than 1 race a year does these things. Also, the game is the game....get over it.
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Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
Yimmy
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 06:30:42 PM »

I did... I went back to the t-breds.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 07:34:00 PM »

I did... I went back to the t-breds.


You think they're any better off?  LMFAO?   head shake screwy doh dunno
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Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
Yimmy
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2012, 07:47:03 PM »

Damned right I do.

Sure there are gas-men on the t-bred side.  But if you think the big guys are out there gassing up Bernardinis and Medgalia D'Oros bought at auction for 500K to win some MSW or NW 1 race, I've got a bridge to sell you. 
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2012, 08:18:02 PM »

Really? Asmussen? Pletcher? Lukas? No positives? They dont all have a record because their 2nd trainers made "errors'...you gotta believe in something I guess?
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Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 08:33:05 PM »

Lukas is a virtual autotoss these days; whatever he's doing, he rarely wins, at least in NY.  As for the Robot, I can't say I'm a fan of his, but when was his last positive... 2008? 

Is Christophe Clement dirty?  Rick Violette (one suspension, from ten years ago).  Terri Pompay?  Chad Brown?  George Weaver?  Shug? 
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nojuice
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 10:18:44 PM »

What about Dutrow?
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jdizigg
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 10:23:36 PM »

What part of this discussion did you not understand? EVERY trainer (who actually matters) DOES THESE THINGS!!!! It really doesnt matter if he's exonerated or not...they can exclude anyone for ANY reason. This is a total dog & pony show the NYSRB cant possibly win under these circumstances...

Too bad, dont want to get caught/fined/banned dont break the rules...
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fuzzypants
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 08:30:26 AM »

we may not know the whole story but it is in black and white the he treated many many horses inside the cutoff date..1700 times to be exact..that is breaking the rules ..period

I m small potato by I will not return to Calexpo where he has been granted a licsenes .
As u no how I feel about horses and things that I feel are cruel all the horses disappearing off the map says it for me.
I tried to make a difference in every horse I own but what's the point?
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Yimmy
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 12:13:38 PM »

What about Dutrow?

Can't speak for past years, since I was away from that game for some time.  I've said it elsewhere here... this year, I don't think he's gassing 'em up.  His claims are by no means locks, just about everyone claims from him, with some horses going on to do quite well in other barns, many of his horses show gradual rather than overnight improvement (see, e.g., Zetterholm), his winning firsters go on to do decent things in allowance races... etc.

Do I think there are gas trainers at the NYRA tracks?  Sure I do.  Just don't think he's one of them, at least now. 
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nojuice
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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2012, 11:09:49 PM »

http://www.drf.com/news/saratoga-willy-beamin-wins-kings-bishop-two-days-rest
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VicD
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2012, 05:37:30 AM »

Dutrow is so good that one day the headline will read, "(Name of horse) wins (Stakes Race) on two hours rest."
He will have entered and won in the first race of the day at a given track, and will win a Stakes race about 2 hours later, maybe the 5th or 6th race on the card.
The man truly is a genius with horses. He understands things that nobody else does.
Same with Pena.
He truly saw the light when he came to NJ from CA.
He is the horse whisperer, and he talks to them in two languages.
That is his secret: English to some, Spanish to the rest that don't understand English.
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Yimmy
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2012, 06:45:49 AM »

There is a vast difference between Dutrow and Pena; other trainers routinely claim from Dutrow, and claims out of Dutrow's barn generally do not fall apart on the next guy.

Mike Maker, a decent but by no means worldbeating trainer, took Sly Warrior from Dutrow out of a maiden 35 claimer and has now won two straight races (allowance company last out) with the hoss, at far higher numPerz than Dutrow had been able to get out of her.
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Hardline
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 06:15:49 AM »

Folks we have all missed many points here.... a good legal team can prove that if you want to check Pena's vet records to prove him guilty of these things and he has passed the spit box, then you have set a new precedence and you must check all trainers vet records...... RIP
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Yimmy
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 08:54:49 AM »

Nope.  The one who missed the point was you; this non-argument has been advanced here before (the word is "precedent", in any event), and it is legally a non-starter.

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Hardline
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2012, 09:07:00 AM »

As usual from reading most of your comments you are yet "Wrong Again"
Let be.....  head shake
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Yimmy
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2012, 09:13:03 AM »

Yes, yes, and also i Am a StoOpit pOopeyFace, twO, you forgot that one.

Seriously, what support do you have for the proposition you advanced?   
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Hardline
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2012, 09:32:07 AM »

Definitely don't need any from you-- Watch and see...


Not defending anyone here...
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HarnessFanDE
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2012, 09:53:49 AM »

The bottom line is all those withdrawal time violations should be on the Vet, not the trainer. I dont disagree that Pena (OR whoever was the actually the trainer of those horses, everyone knew Pena was just the name in the program) was using something, be it cat piss or some super synthetic drug, or whatever and NONE of the violations thay have him for helped him win ONE race, they are just a means to rid him from the game. Racing doesnt give a shit, they dont want to cut the ridiculous purses some of these tracks pay to help police the sport and actually try to clean up the game, so they make an end run and try to make people perceive that they care. Did they even test these horse? It is almost imcomprehensible to me that, say 600 of the 1700 horses won/were specialed and were tested, not a single one came up with an overage of any of the drugs.
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SHOWTIME!!!
Yimmy
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 10:03:41 AM »

SCOTUS held 30+ years ago that the trainer responsibility rule in NY passed Constitutional muster.  As for better testing, there's little money and little support in the sport for it.  The claim that the NYSRWB didn't pull other trainers' vet records before (actually, we don't know this, do we?), even if established, is of no legal significance.
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newjackcity
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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2012, 10:29:03 AM »

Respondeat superior.  maroon maroon maroon
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Hardline
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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2012, 10:50:25 AM »

The hearing was put in front of plain old citizens---the lawyers love that kinda stuff...It disallows the Racing boards prejudice.
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Yimmy
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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2012, 01:46:52 PM »

WHAT hearing was put in front of WHAT "plain old citizens?"
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hungry
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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2012, 04:52:29 PM »

The bottom line is all those withdrawal time violations should be on the Vet, not the trainer. I dont disagree that Pena (OR whoever was the actually the trainer of those horses, everyone knew Pena was just the name in the program) was using something, be it cat piss or some super synthetic drug, or whatever and NONE of the violations thay have him for helped him win ONE race, they are just a means to rid him from the game. Racing doesnt give a shit, they dont want to cut the ridiculous purses some of these tracks pay to help police the sport and actually try to clean up the game, so they make an end run and try to make people perceive that they care. Did they even test these horse? It is almost imcomprehensible to me that, say 600 of the 1700 horses won/were specialed and were tested, not a single one came up with an overage of any of the drugs.

I think racetracks arent really too interested in one trainer winning a ton of races in overwhelming and dominant fashion. As a handicapper, the most important thing to me is that the races are competitive. When i sit down and decipher the PPs, i dont want to have to deal with a 'force' that has nothing to do with the actual horses.

Where i grew up, there were 2 racetracks across the street from each other. One track was called racehorse downs and the other track was called trainer downs. One track featured horse racing and the other track featured trainer racing. I sat down and thought about it for quite a while, hemmed and hawed and finally decided that i actually liked HORSE racing so i became a regular customer at racehorse downs. I did attend trainer downs on occasion but i felt that i didnt want to bet on humans and preferred to bet on actual horses....so, i chose racehorse downs as my track of choice.

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fuzzypants
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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2012, 06:48:05 PM »

The bottom line is all those withdrawal time violations should be on the Vet, not the trainer. I dont disagree that Pena (OR whoever was the actually the trainer of those horses, everyone knew Pena was just the name in the program) was using something, be it cat piss or some super synthetic drug, or whatever and NONE of the violations thay have him for helped him win ONE race, they are just a means to rid him from the game. Racing doesnt give a shit, they dont want to cut the ridiculous purses some of these tracks pay to help police the sport and actually try to clean up the game, so they make an end run and try to make people perceive that they care. Did they even test these horse? It is almost imcomprehensible to me that, say 600 of the 1700 horses won/were specialed and were tested, not a single one came up with an overage of any of the drugs.
I disagree he's the one making the decision to use the vet! Also when a horse time frame is late to LASIx what usually happens ?
to say why didn't the test show high only creates more questions about Pena and not the States testing!
I don't see him getting out of this Commissions no such thing as supermans!
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Hardline
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« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2012, 08:10:36 PM »

"Pena said he was pleased that his case was being heard by a neutral people and not the Board.

"They were impartial and they now have all the facts. The truth will prevail in due time. I am looking forward to the outcome.

"Better days will come soon enough," Pena said."

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Yimmy
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« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2012, 08:16:03 PM »

I see.  So you have inferred from this that he got... a jury trial?   maroon
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Hardline
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2012, 08:19:02 PM »

Jury Trial.....??

Wake up Son.. this is not a criminal proceeding ..

God man the law has nothing to do with this case.


You seem to be a very confused individual for sure! dunno


Have you ever been a Owner,Driver,or Trainer of any kind of animal -- at all?

If not go Bye Bye... I'll bet you give your opinions on about 800 different type message boards??
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Yimmy
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2012, 08:27:19 PM »

Uh, NO... I'm not.  Many civil matters have jury trials, and some criminal cases (B misdemeanors and below, in NY) do NOT; welcome to the 21st century.  You said the case was heard by "plain old citizens"... who might these "plain old citizens (plural)" have been?  Housewives?  Layabouts?  Guys who hang out at the general store?
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »

Uh, NO... I'm not.  Many civil matters have jury trials, and some criminal cases (B misdemeanors and below, in NY) do NOT; welcome to the 21st century.  You said the case was heard by "plain old citizens"... who might these "plain old citizens (plural)" have been?  Housewives?  Layabouts?  Guys who hang out at the general store?

This is NOT a civil NOR criminal matter. It's an ADMINISTRATIVE law case. Completely different. At least in Illinois it is and I can't believe that it would be different in New York.
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supernaut
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 11:33:55 PM »

The bottom line is all those withdrawal time violations should be on the Vet, not the trainer. I dont disagree that Pena (OR whoever was the actually the trainer of those horses, everyone knew Pena was just the name in the program) was using something, be it cat piss or some super synthetic drug, or whatever and NONE of the violations thay have him for helped him win ONE race, they are just a means to rid him from the game. Racing doesnt give a shit, they dont want to cut the ridiculous purses some of these tracks pay to help police the sport and actually try to clean up the game, so they make an end run and try to make people perceive that they care. Did they even test these horse? It is almost imcomprehensible to me that, say 600 of the 1700 horses won/were specialed and were tested, not a single one came up with an overage of any of the drugs.

The head of the testing for New York testified that for many of the prohibited time frame drugs-they had NO test. So they could NOT have a positive for those. He ALSO testified that it "could have been false negatives" that Pena had. I've heard of false positives but NEVER false negatives. Either it's there or it's not.IF there was something there, they would have a cloudy.Have to do more testing to try and find out what, exactly it was.  I would LOVE to have my lawyer get that guy on the stand under oath. He'd be back catching piss with a cup.
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newjackcity
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2012, 12:28:11 AM »

This is NOT a civil NOR criminal matter. It's an ADMINISTRATIVE law case. Completely different. At least in Illinois it is and I can't believe that it would be different in New York.
Most of us are aware of that...Tell it to that idiot Hardline and his "citiiens" that are supposedl hearing this matter.
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Hardline
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2012, 04:37:02 AM »

NewJack seems to be a joker as well?

We will guess that's where he gets his name...JackO_F..?  screw ball

StFup



Supernaut is right on target with his comments. trophy
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2012, 05:23:25 AM »

Never heard of false negatives?
U probably have just isn't caled that directly.
Diluted .
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2012, 06:02:11 AM »

NewJack seems to be a joker as well?

We will guess that's where he gets his name...JackO_F..?  screw ball

StFup



Supernaut is right on target with his comments. trophy
wHO ARE THESE "CITIZENS" YOU IDIOT ?
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supernaut
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2012, 09:07:18 AM »

Never heard of false negatives?
U probably have just isn't caled that directly.
Diluted .


I raced horses for over 30 years and I have NEVER heard of a false negative. Lots of people got cloudys . NEVER a false positive.
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2012, 10:06:29 AM »

The present application is not before an administrative board; the hearing was held in front of a jury of local yokels, by jings!! Justice of the NY State Supreme Court, pursuant to Article 78 of the NY CIVIL (cough!) Practice Laws And Rules.

Next!  head shake
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2012, 10:30:18 AM »

The present application is not before an administrative board; the hearing was held in front of a jury of local yokels, by jings!! Justice of the NY State Supreme Court, pursuant to Article 78 of the NY CIVIL (cough!) Practice Laws And Rules.

Next!  head shake
Why in the F U K do you let something like rules,statutes, laws, and articles get in the way of what people think it is or should be.  No wonder people don't like the law or lawyers always seems to bring order to disorder.  laughing guy laughing guy
Thank you now let us see if HardIdiot and supernut, whose lawyers would run rings around these witness have to spew forth now.  He must have either Rabinowitz, Rabinowitz and Rabinowitz, made famous by Archie Bunker or Maggie Nagoda, who is famous in her on right.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy 
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2012, 10:41:23 AM »

 Cheesy Cheesy

Sometimes non-lawyers have STRANGE ideas about the law, and some are just downright amusing. Some years back, my brother-in-law was teaching in a school in Brooklyn, and he asked me to come in and talk the seniors on Career Day.  Somewhat contrary to my expectations, the kids were terrific, very much interested, even excited about what awaited them in the World O Work after college/grad school.  But when I asked them what they thought lawyers did, the response was almost unanimous:

"SOLVE CRIMES!!!"    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

One young lady DID say "get innocent people free." Better, but still not exactly on the mark.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2012, 10:43:59 AM »

Cheesy Cheesy

Sometimes non-lawyers have STRANGE ideas about the law, and some are just downright amusing. Some years back, my brother-in-law was teaching in a school in Brooklyn, and he asked me to come in and talk the seniors on Career Day.  Somewhat contrary to my expectations, the kids were terrific, very much interested, even excited about what awaited them in the World O Work after college/grad school.  But when I asked them what they thought lawyers did, the response was almost unanimous:

"SOLVE CRIMES!!!"    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

One young lady DID say "get innocent people free." Better, but still not exactly on the mark.  Roll Eyes
CSI AND William Peterson, a Chicago laddie.
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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2012, 10:50:52 AM »

The present application is not before an administrative board; the hearing was held in front of a jury of local yokels, by jings!! Justice of the NY State Supreme Court, pursuant to Article 78 of the NY CIVIL (cough!) Practice Laws And Rules.

Next!  head shake

In Illinois, my case was heard by the Illinois Racing Board, sent to an arbiter hired by the Racing Board, then we appealed to the State. My case was heard by an Administrative Law judge. NOT a "board".He laughed at the attorney representing the state and told her that she had NOTHING. And was surprised that this case had gotten this far. He ruled in my favor. The Racing board appealed to the State Supreme Court and having failed there, appealed to the US Supreme Court and they would not hear the case. So the case ended in my favor. I was awarded lawyer fees and court costs but NEVER received a penny from the wonderful state of Illinois.
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Yimmy
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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2012, 10:57:43 AM »

"The Racing board appealed to the State Supreme Court"

Same deal here, only Pena, as the aggrieved party, took it into the courts, not via an "appeal", per se, but pursuant to our Article 78, which provides for what were known a bit back in the day as writs of mandamus or prohibition.
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2012, 02:55:49 PM »

Hey   NewJackO_f


Citizens First National B__k

try that one
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2012, 02:59:09 PM »

Some years back---I was in a tangle with a racing board.... My Lawyer ate them up and digested them...Their procedures are not based on any applicable law and they become a joke in the eyes of the courts..

Trust me on that one!

Yimmy ----truce ---you have many good points but we are in a very crazy business ---let's just say whatever...!!


We are all in this together and I feel sad fighting amongst ourselves---so I won't poor baby

You and NewJ  should be my freind...so I cease trash talking from here forward... beer

God Bless you folks
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2012, 03:11:11 PM »

I appreciate that, and yeah, fine, but I'm not IN the horse racing business.
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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2012, 03:18:07 PM »

That is good....
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2012, 03:35:21 PM »

Yimmy and NewJackCity-----are  trophy ners


Yimmy---I am the CEO of the largest Expert Witness Consulting Firm in the Midwest   BTW..
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2012, 03:47:06 PM »

PM me.
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supernaut
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« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2012, 04:07:10 PM »

"The Racing board appealed to the State Supreme Court"

Same deal here, only Pena, as the aggrieved party, took it into the courts, not via an "appeal", per se, but pursuant to our Article 78, which provides for what were known a bit back in the day as writs of mandamus or prohibition.

But there should have been some kind of hearing with a judge deciding the merits of the case and other things. It sounds to me that this did NOT happen. Just the rubber stamping of the NYSWB sounds kind of fishy to me.
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« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2012, 04:12:36 PM »

There was a 3-day hearing in the Supreme Court.
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newjackcity
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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2012, 11:02:48 PM »

Some years back---I was in a tangle with a racing board.... My Lawyer ate them up and digested them...Their procedures are not based on any applicable law and they become a joke in the eyes of the courts..

Trust me on that one!

Yimmy ----truce ---you have many good points but we are in a very crazy business ---let's just say whatever...!!


We are all in this together and I feel sad fighting amongst ourselves---so I won't poor baby

You and NewJ  should be my freind...so I cease trash talking from here forward... beer

God Bless you folks

I am in...Let us begin from the beginning.  thumbs up beer thumbs up
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