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Author Topic: ALL elim. races should be not bet PERIOD!!!  (Read 1680 times)
sn
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« on: November 14, 2005, 02:47:39 AM »

All elimination races for final stakes should be non bet races PERIOD!!!! These are the worst races to bet on that there is. Half the time drivers dont make the moves they need to make to win the race because they are affraid they will finish out of getting qualified for the final!!! Make the elim's non bet races or SKIP them all together just take the top money earners and race the finals!!! That would be more fair to the betting public!!!
Has anyone ever seen elim. races for a t-bred stake race?Huh
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shuffledagain
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 09:38:50 AM »

sn,

  I like the way they do it in Canada.  The elimination race winners get to pick their post(s) for the final.  Then the others that qualify are thrown into a hat and their positions are pulled.
  It seems to make the race bettable.  As getting to pick your post position in the final can mean a lot.
  I agree though if there is no big incentive to win the elimination race you cannot rely on the best effort by each horse.

best,

shuffledagain
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njhorseman
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 09:43:10 AM »

sn,

  I like the way they do it in Canada.  The elimination race winners get to pick their post(s) for the final.  Then the others that qualify are thrown into a hat and their positions are pulled.
  It seems to make the race bettable.  As getting to pick your post position in the final can mean a lot.
  I agree though if there is no big incentive to win the elimination race you cannot rely on the best effort by each horse.

best,

shuffledagain

Breeders Crown elimination winners also get to select their post positions.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 03:24:31 PM »

sn,

  I like the way they do it in Canada.  The elimination race winners get to pick their post(s) for the final.  Then the others that qualify are thrown into a hat and their positions are pulled.
  It seems to make the race bettable.  As getting to pick your post position in the final can mean a lot.
  I agree though if there is no big incentive to win the elimination race you cannot rely on the best effort by each horse.

best,

shuffledagain

Small question (maybe I'm missing the point): how does allowing the WINNER to PICK their post make the race bettable?  Seems to me you'd be a lot more likely to have a bigger favorite that way, no?

How about: of the qualifiers, they are able to choose their posts in order from fastest qualifying time to slowest?

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 03:27:40 PM »

Small question (maybe I'm missing the point): how does allowing the WINNER to PICK their post make the race bettable?  Seems to me you'd be a lot more likely to have a bigger favorite that way, no?

How about: of the qualifiers, they are able to choose their posts in order from fastest qualifying time to slowest?

Best,
EW

EW:
It makes the race more bettable because winning an elimnation has more value than just making the final.  Too many times horses in elims are driven just to make the final, without any great effort to win, because the connections want to keep as much gas in the tank as possible for the final.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2005, 03:32:07 PM »

EW:
It makes the race more bettable because winning an elimnation has more value than just making the final.  Too many times horses in elims are driven just to make the final, without any great effort to win, because the connections want to keep as much gas in the tank as possible for the final.

I gotcha...and understand that point.  I was referring to the final because I was paying more attention.  Sorry!

Best,
EW
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shuffledagain
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2005, 05:17:55 PM »

Small question (maybe I'm missing the point): how does allowing the WINNER to PICK their post make the race bettable?  Seems to me you'd be a lot more likely to have a bigger favorite that way, no?

How about: of the qualifiers, they are able to choose their posts in order from fastest qualifying time to slowest?

Best,
EW

EW,

  Sorry for the confusion.  I don't write too well.  I meant it makes the elimination race more bettable.  At least it does in my opinion as the players are trying to win the elim so that they can pick their post in the final.

Good luck with that P9 on Thursday.

Best regards,

shuffleagain
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2005, 05:20:34 PM »

EW,

  Sorry for the confusion.  I don't write too well.  I meant it makes the elimination race more bettable.  At least it does in my opinion as the players are trying to win the elim so that they can pick their post in the final.

Good luck with that P9 on Thursday.

Best regards,

shuffleagain

No worries.  I should've gotten it like everyone else -- haha.  Best of luck!

Best,
EW
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2005, 05:53:51 PM »

Anyone who thinks the elims are the worst betting races should take a gander at the BILLINGS series.
 
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 06:21:24 PM »

Being the quarter horse fan that I am, they have trials where only the top 10 times get in.  Best betting races in the world.  Every horse including the winner has to go as fast as possible and try as hard as they can.  Horses often win and not even qualify.  What if, in harness elims, you took the top 2 finishers in each elimination, and fill the rest of the spots with the fastest individual final times?  This would insure a honest effort by the rest of the qualifiers, because 5th might not get you in if the 6th place finisher in the other elim went faster. Than the horsemen choose posts based on fastest time.
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 06:30:54 PM »

Being the quarter horse fan that I am, they have trials where only the top 10 times get in.  Best betting races in the world.  Every horse including the winner has to go as fast as possible and try as hard as they can.  Horses often win and not even qualify.  What if, in harness elims, you took the top 2 finishers in each elimination, and fill the rest of the spots with the fastest individual final times?  This would insure a honest effort by the rest of the qualifiers, because 5th might not get you in if the 6th place finisher in the other elim went faster. Than the horsemen choose posts based on fastest time.

I've posted the virtues of this many times...

Everyone always wants to speak of pace, etc.  But, IMO, you go with the one rock solid metric that we have in the game -- time.  Just because one division goes in 1:51 and the other in 1:53, does that mean that the 53 horses were worse?  No.  But, what about the 6th place finisher that just happened to draw into the fast division??  You can look at it both ways.

The only problem I could ever see with that is a change in track conditon in between the two/three/four elims.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 08:49:41 PM »

I've posted the virtues of this many times...

Everyone always wants to speak of pace, etc.  But, IMO, you go with the one rock solid metric that we have in the game -- time.  Just because one division goes in 1:51 and the other in 1:53, does that mean that the 53 horses were worse?  No.  But, what about the 6th place finisher that just happened to draw into the fast division??  You can look at it both ways.

The only problem I could ever see with that is a change in track conditon in between the two/three/four elims.

Best,
EW

EW:
I don't care for using time, for the reasons you cite and then choose to ignore. Wink

I would allow the horses that didn't qualify by finishing, say 1-2, or 1-2-3 in the elims to draw into the final based on lifetime earnings (which has been used in some stakes). This would make it closer to the Thoroughbred system. As you probably know, if more horses enter the Kentucky Derby than can race, earnings determine the entrants. You may recall an entrant a few years ago who didn't get to race in the Derby because he was DQ'd in a prep race, lowering his earnings.

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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 09:44:51 PM »

EW:
I don't care for using time, for the reasons you cite and then choose to ignore. Wink

I would allow the horses that didn't qualify by finishing, say 1-2, or 1-2-3 in the elims to draw into the final based on lifetime earnings (which has been used in some stakes). This would make it closer to the Thoroughbred system. As you probably know, if more horses enter the Kentucky Derby than can race, earnings determine the entrants. You may recall an entrant a few years ago who didn't get to race in the Derby because he was DQ'd in a prep race, lowering his earnings.


I couldn't go for that suggested method because there are horses that would know from the start that they were in (the top however many in the dec list).

I wouldn't mind going with only lifetime earnings.  Personally, for a two elim race, I like the winners getting in, with the remaining eight spots going on the basis of time.  In the case of an altered track condition, it could default to position or earnings...

Just a suggestion?

Best,
EW
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 10:45:03 PM »

I myself haven't put major escarole on an elim since I was told to come out and get my picture taken with Eng Amer Supertime in the Am-Nat Aged Trot Elims of 1992 (?)  He beat Dr. Trotta (Busse) and another nice trotter in his heat with Deano in the bike and paid $26 or so.  In the finals, he got snapped on the wire by the great Night Court Dan and Art McIlmurray.  Night Court Dan went nearly to the fence but closed stoutly to get the blanket. NJ will surely remember  later that year, Art was nearly in the wreck in the International Trot at YR (could have been the next year -NCD was sharp for a two year period) when Billyjoejimbob went down like the Titanic.  When Art would race a few here at Spk, I'd chat with him on the bus to the backside.  I asked him if his life flashed before his eyes during that incident, he said "No, but I probably had to change my shorts afterward" LOL  TC
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