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Author Topic: Dutrow will go to NY court of appeals  (Read 562 times)
honest & balanced terry
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« on: August 07, 2012, 09:01:20 AM »

"If the court agrees to take the case, the hearings may not take place until December or in the early months of 2013. [His attorney] Koenig did not rule out seeking relief in federal court if he is unsuccessful in state court."

So much for the idea of ever cleaning up racing by handing down "meaningful punishments".

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content/the_spa_spot/594212/the-spa-spot--dutrow-s-attorney-to-petition-court-of-appeals/

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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 09:14:47 AM »

So much for the idea of ever cleaning up racing by handing down "meaningful punishments".

Just curious: who here would willingly accept such a long and costly penalty without using all available appeals processes?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 09:17:26 AM »

Just curious: who here would willingly accept such a long and costly penalty without using all available appeals processes?

I doubt anyone would. Just saying, here's [more] proof that the simplistic call for "meaningful penalties" to clean up racing isn't going to do the trick.
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 09:28:07 AM »

I doubt anyone would. Just saying, here's [more] proof that the simplistic call for "meaningful penalties" to clean up racing isn't going to do the trick.

OK, got it.

That, and the fact that no one else significant (on the t-bred, at least) has been caught in the "Must Clean Up Racing" net since Dutrow (is it two years yet?) would seem to make it open season for anyone who wants to play fast and loose with the rules (or continue to do so, as some might suspect).
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 09:31:10 AM »

here's [more] proof that the simplistic call for "meaningful penalties" to clean up racing isn't going to do the trick.

Really?  uh, No. From my understanding, the appeal hinges on a procedural technicality.  I suppose you're allowed an opinion, however misguided, but ... No.
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They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 09:35:19 AM »

Really?  uh, No. From my understanding, the appeal hinges on a procedural technicality.  I suppose you're allowed an opinion, however misguided, but ... No.

Is Dutrow still training horses while he pursues all these appeals, or not?
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 09:44:04 AM »

Is Dutrow still training horses while he pursues all these appeals, or not?

Yes, but with this ruling hanging over his head, he's had to cut WAY back on the transmission fluid and the WD-40 and whatever other chemical goo he normally stuffs his horses with, to the point that he's only winning eleventy billion dollars a year instead of the normal shfifty-five billion dollars.

There's actually a few crumbs around for someone else to win now; I think the penalty is working splendidly.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 09:53:20 AM »

Yes, but with this ruling hanging over his head, he's had to cut WAY back on the transmission fluid and the WD-40 and whatever other chemical goo he normally stuffs his horses with, to the point that he's only winning eleventy billion dollars a year instead of the normal shfifty-five billion dollars.

There's actually a few crumbs around for someone else to win now; I think the penalty is working splendidly.

With this ruling hanging over his head already, I'd think it would be open season.

The bottom line is that as long as racing is made up of independent contractors in 37 different jurisdictions like it is, the appeals on any and all penalties will go on forever and cut the legs out from any harsh punishments that come along just like they already do to lesser punishments. And the chances that the sport of horse racing would ever voluntarily take on a form like the NFL or whatever, where the commissioner can hand down a ruling and it sticks are slim to none.

And so we'll have Congress meddling in racing continually, and more often.
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 10:02:04 AM »

OK, got it.

That, and the fact that no one else significant (on the t-bred, at least) has been caught in the "Must Clean Up Racing" net since Dutrow (is it two years yet?) would seem to make it open season for anyone who wants to play fast and loose with the rules (or continue to do so, as some might suspect).

I think Jamie Ness might disagree with you, but maybe you don't consider him significant enough, he has had his barn raided and has been barred from two tracks which has severely hampered his money winnings and his ability to get everything raced....They should have used right of private enterprise to exclude the cancer that is Rick Dutrow.....like they did on Ness.....Then there are no "successful" avenues for appeal......And instead of being allowed to race (Under the right of private enterprise ban) you are instantly banned and you have to win your right back to race (which you wont)
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 10:04:00 AM »

With this ruling hanging over his head already, I'd think it would be open season.

You would think, but with all of the normal testing and "specials" they've performed on Dutrow's runners in the last 2 years, wouldn't you *also* think that with a guy that is supposedly THAT dirty (and still winning by the cartload), they would have found...something? Anything?

What, NOW he can even get foal papers in on time?  doh

[W]e'll have Congress meddling in racing continually, and more often.

Hard to imaging even our beloved federal gummint messing things up worse than they are now. I suppose I shouldn't underestimate them, though.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 10:13:21 AM »

I think Jamie Ness might disagree with you, but maybe you don't consider him significant enough, he has had his barn raided and has been barred from two tracks which has severely hampered his money winnings and his ability to get everything raced.

Huh? From Equibase, 2012 Trainer Stats (sorted by number of wins):

1.   Jamie Ness   757 (starts)   271 (wins)   141   94   $4,496,823

LOL, I wish I was THAT hampered! You gotta be kidding us, right?

(By the way -- remember all those illegal drugs and syringes they found when they raided the Ness barn? Wow, that was some pretty exotic stuff -- right?)

They should have used right of private enterprise to exclude the cancer that is Rick Dutrow.....like they did on Ness.

Only problem is, NYRA isn't a private enterprise...so unlike those other tracks where they can just ban you and not have to tell you why or prove any misdeeds, trainers at NYRA are actually entitled to defend themselves.

(You know, that pesky "due process" bullshit.  head shake )
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 10:30:40 AM »

You would think, but with all of the normal testing and "specials" they've performed on Dutrow's runners in the last 2 years, wouldn't you *also* think that with a guy that is supposedly THAT dirty (and still winning by the cartload), they would have found...something? Anything?

Well, they did, the syringes in the desk followed by a positive for something or other, and that's why they handed down the 10 year ban.
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 11:07:32 AM »

Well, they did, the syringes in the desk followed by a positive for something or other, and that's why they handed down the 10 year ban.

Yes, of course...but in the 18 - 24 months since (if I am exaggerating, apologies, too lazy to go look it up at the moment), he's STILL winning tons o' races and STILL under fairly intense scrutiny...and exactly WHAT ELSE have they found on him?

Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? Just a little?  dunno
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 11:09:20 AM »

Yes, of course...but in the 18 - 24 months since (if I am exaggerating, apologies, too lazy to go look it up at the moment), he's STILL winning tons o' races and STILL under fairly intense scrutiny...and exactly WHAT ELSE have they found on him?

Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? Just a little?  dunno

It doesn't make me wonder. He didn't get nicked for winning too many races, he got nicked for having too many incidents on his record.
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 11:25:13 AM »

It doesn't make me wonder. He didn't get nicked for winning too many races, he got nicked for having too many incidents on his record.

Wait a minute.

The "dirtiest" guy in all of racing (what did HarnessFan call him? The "cancer" that is Rick Dutrow?), and he's still winning tons of races with NO findings whatsoever since the 10 year ban was announced, even while under scrutiny...and you don't wonder how that is possible?

And if you *really* believe that he got nicked for having too many incidents on his record (again, incidents for which he had already paid his fines and penalties IN FULL), then I find your naivete to be a bit alarming.

With no other "Scoundrels of Racing" in the hopper, it becomes more clear with each passing day that the folks in charge were simply making an example out of Dutrow...pure grandstanding.

Don't believe it? Where are the rest of the bad guys, then? It's been long enough to find 'em, what with how filthy dirty racing is, right? Right?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 11:44:31 AM »

Wait a minute.

The "dirtiest" guy in all of racing (what did HarnessFan call him? The "cancer" that is Rick Dutrow?), and he's still winning tons of races with NO findings whatsoever since the 10 year ban was announced, even while under scrutiny...and you don't wonder how that is possible?

No, I don't. His 10 year suspension was for things he did in the past. What is or is not happening today has no bearing on that.

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And if you *really* believe that he got nicked for having too many incidents on his record (again, incidents for which he had already paid his fines and penalties IN FULL), then I find your naivete to be a bit alarming.

We have been through this whole thing many times before. You have produced zero actual evidence for any other motivation, including the hackneyed "jealousy" theory.
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 11:59:44 AM »

Huh? From Equibase, 2012 Trainer Stats (sorted by number of wins):

1.   Jamie Ness   757 (starts)   271 (wins)   141   94   $4,496,823

LOL, I wish I was THAT hampered! You gotta be kidding us, right?

(By the way -- remember all those illegal drugs and syringes they found when they raided the Ness barn? Wow, that was some pretty exotic stuff -- right?)

Only problem is, NYRA isn't a private enterprise...so unlike those other tracks where they can just ban you and not have to tell you why or prove any misdeeds, trainers at NYRA are actually entitled to defend themselves.

(You know, that pesky "due process" bullshit.  head shake )

Ness is barred from the two most lucrative purse tracks in the Mid-Atlantic.....If you dont think that has really hurt his bottom line you are delusional......Its has forced him to try to get horses raced at 3 tracks instead of looking through 5 condition books and like I said the 3 tracks he is racing at have the lowest purse structure of the 5......Im sure he's not missing any meals because of it.....NY State certainly has "right of private enterprise"....If NYRA is funded with taxpayer dollars it might be an issue for them to use it....I know NY tracks have used it successfully in the past to rid themselves of undesirables....The only TB track I know is Finger Lakes though
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 12:19:35 PM »

No, I don't. His 10 year suspension was for things he did in the past.

OK, then, by definition, you agree that Dutrow is being DOUBLE PENALIZED, since he had already been fined and / or suspended for all of that other stuff.

We have been through this whole thing many times before. You have produced zero actual evidence for any other motivation, including the hackneyed "jealousy" theory.

Don't need to produce any evidence, anymore: the lack of any follow-up action by the folks in charge to rid racing of the other "bad guys" is all the evidence anyone needs...unless you just want to go the ostrich route, and pretend you really don't see what is going on.

How much more time do they need, Terry? Where are the bad guys?
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 12:29:49 PM »

Ness is barred from the two most lucrative purse tracks in the Mid-Atlantic.....If you dont think that has really hurt his bottom line you are delusional.

Ness has earned over $4.5 MILLION with Midwest Thoroughbreds, et. al. merry band of cheap claimers this year....and we still have another 4+ months to go.

He is in 10th place at the moment in earnings for 2012; only the blueblood types like Pletcher and Baffert are ahead of him. "Hurt his bottom line"? Huh? Where *should* he be? Ahead of those two guys?  screwy

If I'm delusional, then you must be more stoned than clockerboob, which I suspect is medically impossible; whatever you're smoking, pass it this way pal! I could use a few damaged brain cells if this little sub-thread is going to continue.

Whew!  Shocked
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »

OK, then, by definition, you agree that Dutrow is being DOUBLE PENALIZED, since he had already been fined and / or suspended for all of that other stuff.

No, but I do agree that the severity of his latest punishment (for needles and the last positive) was due to his past rap sheet, just exactly how a 3rd or 4th DUI gets a more severe sentence than a 1st.

And I might add, this is not a criminal proceeding, but a LICENSE issue, as in "a privilege, not a right."

Quote
Don't need to produce any evidence, anymore: the lack of any follow-up action by the folks in charge to rid racing of the other "bad guys" is all the evidence anyone needs...unless you just want to go the ostrich route, and pretend you really don't see what is going on.

You're content to simply fabricate your own motivations for everyone else's actions, and that's certainly your right.

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How much more time do they need, Terry? Where are the bad guys?

They also took out Pena on the harness side, so it's ongoing.
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2012, 01:20:55 PM »

No, but I do agree that the severity of his latest punishment (for needles and the last positive) was due to his past rap sheet, just exactly how a 3rd or 4th DUI gets a more severe sentence than a 1st.

You're all over the place now, but at least you are no worse than the guy that came up the the 10 year penalty; he never comes up with the same justification twice in a row, either.

And I might add, this is not a criminal proceeding, but a LICENSE issue, as in "a privilege, not a right."

Oh, of course it is. If it were a criminal case, it would have failed miserably. Just like, if you can't convict a guy of murder because of a sloppy investigation, take him to civil court where the standards of evidence are much looser, and you can ruin a guy's life much easier by taking away all his assets.

You're content to simply fabricate your own motivations for everyone else's actions, and that's certainly your right.

Oh, you think it's just me. Keep your ears open; sooner or later more people in racing will see this thing for what it is -- a charade.

They also took out Pena on the harness side, so it's ongoing.

Riiiight. Two guys, in two years -- in Sleazy Filthy Dirty Horse Racing.  doh

(Good thing law enforcement doesn't move at this pace, eh?)

So...that's it?

Bueller? Bueller?  laughing guy
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 01:31:03 PM »

You're all over the place now

No, I'm not. My original statement was that "he got nicked for having too many incidents on his record." It's exactly the same thing as having previous DUI's, or "points" against you for various offenses on your driver's license. Sooner or later they take it away.

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Oh, of course it is. If it were a criminal case, it would have failed miserably.

Maybe it would have, but since it is not a criminal case, the "double jeopardy" defense you continually attempt to resort to does not apply.

Quote
Oh, you think it's just me. Keep your ears open; sooner or later more people in racing will see this thing for what it is -- a charade.

You've been making that claim often and loudly, and outside of you and maybe one or two other conspiracy theorists, there's been nothing new to hear.

Quote
Riiiight. Two guys, in two years -- in Sleazy Filthy Dirty Horse Racing.

Two less than there used to be. And in case you hadn't been keeping up on your reading, the authorities came down pretty hard on the guys caught with that frog juice, too. So there's more guys than just two.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:41:55 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 01:50:44 PM »

You would think, but with all of the normal testing and "specials" they've performed on Dutrow's runners in the last 2 years, wouldn't you *also* think that with a guy that is supposedly THAT dirty (and still winning by the cartload), they would have found...something? Anything?

What, NOW he can even get foal papers in on time?  doh

Hard to imaging even our beloved federal gummint messing things up worse than they are now. I suppose I shouldn't underestimate them, though.

But, don't they have to test for someting specific? In other words they dont just 'blanket test' the blood and urine and say 'eureka' we found something....they have to specifically test for something that is known...which means that they'll theoretically 'find' the substance and then test Dutrow's runners to see if any of them are contiminated. But, since there are theoretically an infinite number of things that could be inside a horse, finding one of them is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Im not an expert on testing procedures, but am i right about this?
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 02:49:00 PM »

The NY Court of Appeals grants motions for leave to appeal VERY infrequently.

... which is too bad.  I've come to like and respect Dutrow, and, whatever may have been his MO in the past, his PP chart this year does not suggest rampant juicitude.  JMO, YMMV.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 06:21:51 AM »

Ness has earned over $4.5 MILLION with Midwest Thoroughbreds, et. al. merry band of cheap claimers this year....and we still have another 4+ months to go.

He is in 10th place at the moment in earnings for 2012; only the blueblood types like Pletcher and Baffert are ahead of him. "Hurt his bottom line"? Huh? Where *should* he be? Ahead of those two guys?  screwy

If I'm delusional, then you must be more stoned than clockerboob, which I suspect is medically impossible; whatever you're smoking, pass it this way pal! I could use a few damaged brain cells if this little sub-thread is going to continue.

Whew!  Shocked

I stand corrected.....being barred is an advantage for a trainer......If being barred is an advantage why is Dutrow fighting it? You are the only moron in the World that could possibly think that not being able to race your horses is an advantage.
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