Ugly DQ At Yonkers

[VicD]

Great newspaper articles about that riot at RR in 1963, thanks for posting...

[the exactorman]

I believe there was also a major riot at RR in the mid-70's. I think the riot started over the prices of a bet they used to have called the twin double? it was a bet that after people won, they would run around the track to "sell" their ticket (of course they could have kept it if they wanted, it just couldnt be cashed, it was like a parlay type bet). The clubhouse had numerous doors/windows broken by some lunatics....

[hungry]

Here's the idea of 'backing down the pace'.

its not so much the slowing of the pace as its the SUDDEN slowing of the pace. Even if a quarter is really slow (like a 32 or 33 qtr) there could be one or two strides where the horse is shut down so quickly, he's going the RATE of a '40 second quarter' for one or two strides and that sudden slowing could cause confusion and possibly an accident. I think slowing of the pace is different from the automobile example becuase with a car, the break lights go on immediately and that gives the car behind a fighting chance to stop. In harness racing, there are no break lights, you really have 'no shot' to not run up on the guy in front of you if he grabs a huge hold and that horse slows rapidly.

With all that said, there can't really be a DQ in that instance. You have to pay the bettors and punish the driver behind the scenes, no way the fans should be involved in this type of situation.

If you don't pay the winners, you really toss a bucket of crap over the integrity of the wagering process.

I have to tell you, that a DQ in a spot like that says loud and clear that they have no regard for the bettors who invested their hard earned money on that race and expected a fair shake.

As a bettor who has bet YR in the past (but will no more) i could care less about their 'rules and regulations' i just want to be paid if i bet on a winner. I know, not a heck of a lot to ask, but with Yonkers, it seems that its a LOT to ask.

You gotta find a way to PAY the winning bettors no matter what it takes. Bettors want to bet on tracks where they feel that its going to really take an act of god for their runner to be DQd. Some tracks seem to be quick with the trigger finger and 'lean' towards a DQ if there's any 'borderline' incident. Bettors want them to lean AWAY from playing god with OPM, bettors want the results to stand because everyone knows how mentally crushing it is to have a winner and then have that taken away. Its not nearly as bad to lose and not get placed up, but when you get DQd that can be a devastating situation. Most bettors arent seasoned pro's who can handle the emotional stress of a hard DQ so you really have to pay the winners and only DQ in the most obvious situations.

[the exactorman]

I completely agree that the bettor should not be hurt and fines should occur behind the scenes. This like other rules harness tracks have, make little sense. The other rule that makes no sense is when they declare a race a "non-race" because of less than a certain amount of horses finishing due to a horse causing the field to scatter(I believe if less than 4 out of 8 finish they declare a non-race?). If a horse refuses to come to the gait, or a horse breaks and scatters 2 horses, those instances dont provide refunds, and we have all learned that we have to suck it up and throw our tickets away....

[Horse265]

I completely agree that the bettor should not be hurt and fines should occur behind the scenes. This like other rules harness tracks have, make little sense. The other rule that makes no sense is when they declare a race a "non-race" because of less than a certain amount of horses finishing due to a horse causing the field to scatter(I believe if less than 4 out of 8 finish they declare a non-race?). If a horse refuses to come to the gait, or a horse breaks and scatters 2 horses, those instances dont provide refunds, and we have all learned that we have to suck it up and throw our tickets away....

I wish all tracks would at least handle it like Canada does, some of these horses that never make the gait, should be refunded, period, i think its total BS on how they take our money when a horse is galloping 20 lengths off the gate, maybe not all of Canada, but Woodbine/Mohawk refund quite often when this happens.

[the exactorman]

Canada does it the right way. Track announcer says hold all tix when race starts, and refunds are given. We all have come to accept losing but to not even have a shot when your horse in nowhere near the gate at the start is frustrating.

[VicD]

How about when a horse dumps a jock right after the gate opens?
No refund.
I have less of a problem with a horse breaking/not making the gate than with the judging at YR.
Holland did not abruptly slow the pace, and that is a fact, not an opinion that can be proven by watching the race.
Cat Manzi is another story.
He may be getting too old to be effective.
He was always an arrogant guy, all the way back to when he tried to time the wire with (Carl's Bird?) and he missed. Was it the Wilson or the Meadowlands Pace? Long time ago and I can't remember.
Anyway, his arrogance would prompt him to complain that he ran into the horse in front of him, when it was clearly his fault.
Consistent judging is all most of us want, and at YR you don't get that.

[the exactorman]

You are right Vic D. its the consistency thats the problem. I just think they need to come out with/enforce punishments that dont effect the horseplayer. Sit a driver down 3-5 days if they have a problem with slowing the pace too much, fine him a significant $ amount, etc. I happen to like Holland and win on him, however, if I was betting Yonkers, I could care less if some other capable driver gets his drives for 3-5 days....why punish the bettor, after all thats what the DQ is doing...unless of course they took him down because their cronies had Manzi's horse.

[HarnessFanDE]

Let me put in my two cents about the decision.....I had a $50 exacta box 15 on the bell......My friend also had it for $50 and another guy at Dover had it for $20......I havent got to the Red Mile guys yet to see how much they might have had it for......So my opinion is probably not without bias......28.2 is a plenty fast enough first quarter on a trotter for everyone to be able to control their own horse......I think the judges went after the gate callers on that race as Im sure that the original number would have paid quite short.....They didnt even have an inquiry on the 5 until the last second......If you watch the whole video it was an inquiry on the 1.....After they had decided they couldnt find a way to bring him down they decided to invent a reason to bring down the 5.....Seems every race at every harness track today is the same.....They roll the first 1/4 walk the 2nd.....go as fast as they can the 3rd.....and hope they can hang on in the last.....Everybody is now an ABC driver.....all from the Palone school of driving......He won 15k races doing exactly that.....

[coldpunch]

Let me put in my two cents about the decision.....I had a $50 exacta box 15 on the bell......My friend also had it for $50 and another guy at Dover had it for $20......I havent got to the Red Mile guys yet to see how much they might have had it for......So my opinion is probably not without bias......28.2 is a plenty fast enough first quarter on a trotter for everyone to be able to control their own horse......I think the judges went after the gate callers on that race as Im sure that the original number would have paid quite short.....They didnt even have an inquiry on the 5 until the last second......If you watch the whole video it was an inquiry on the 1.....After they had decided they couldnt find a way to bring him down they decided to invent a reason to bring down the 5.....Seems every race at every harness track today is the same.....They roll the first 1/4 walk the 2nd.....go as fast as they can the 3rd.....and hope they can hang on in the last.....Everybody is now an ABC driver.....all from the Palone school of driving......He won 15k races doing exactly that.....

why are famous gatepunchers allowed to make wagers after the bell when the rest of us mere humans dont have that luxury?

[Blue Chip55]

why are famous gatepunchers allowed to make wagers after the bell when the rest of us mere humans dont have that luxury?

Becaue its utter corruption CP and and an incredible ongoing scandal

[HarnessFanDE]

why are famous gatepunchers allowed to make wagers after the bell when the rest of us mere humans dont have that luxury?

Because the place we play at pays for the luxury of picking up the feed over the old "C" band satellites instead of taking it on the 8 second delay that you get on the Roberts feed which is what almost every place uses.....Yonkers is a death bell......Though it looks so easy you cant help but play......Nothing hardly ever lines up and hits.....I was shocked when I was at Yonkers that the windows locked there about as soon as the horses turned down the stretch......

[VicD]

Let me put in my two cents about the decision.....I had a $50 exacta box 15 on the bell......My friend also had it for $50 and another guy at Dover had it for $20......I havent got to the Red Mile guys yet to see how much they might have had it for......So my opinion is probably not without bias......28.2 is a plenty fast enough first quarter on a trotter for everyone to be able to control their own horse......I think the judges went after the gate callers on that race as Im sure that the original number would have paid quite short.....They didnt even have an inquiry on the 5 until the last second......If you watch the whole video it was an inquiry on the 1.....After they had decided they couldnt find a way to bring him down they decided to invent a reason to bring down the 5.....Seems every race at every harness track today is the same.....They roll the first 1/4 walk the 2nd.....go as fast as they can the 3rd.....and hope they can hang on in the last.....Everybody is now an ABC driver.....all from the Palone school of driving......He won 15k races doing exactly that.....

Wait a minute..
You are saying that the judges were punishing the guys ringing the bell?
Are you serious?
For what reason?
Guys have been ringing the bell at YR for 60 years, why now?
And why would they care one way or the other?
The handle stays the same whether or not they roll their numbers around the track all night long or not..
Seems like a poor excuse, but their ruling on the race was VERY poor.
I'm not arguing, I just don't understand your logic..
P.S.
Those judges need to go and now...

[hungry]

Bye Bye YR judges, time to go.

[hungry]

How about when a horse dumps a jock right after the gate opens?
No refund.
I have less of a problem with a horse breaking/not making the gate than with the judging at YR.
Holland did not abruptly slow the pace, and that is a fact, not an opinion that can be proven by watching the race.
Cat Manzi is another story.
He may be getting too old to be effective.
He was always an arrogant guy, all the way back to when he tried to time the wire with (Carl's Bird?) and he missed. Was it the Wilson or the Meadowlands Pace? Long time ago and I can't remember.
Anyway, his arrogance would prompt him to complain that he ran into the horse in front of him, when it was clearly his fault.
Consistent judging is all most of us want, and at YR you don't get that.

Catman was driving Trutone Lobell....might have been an Eddie Lohmeyer horse and he blew a 2 or 3 length lead in the dying strides. Carls Bird nailed him on the far far outside by a whisker.

[looking in]

In defence of Manzi (going to sleep as some have suggested).
These 1,000 pound equines have neither power brakes or power steering. So you need not be asleep to crash.

Be careful posters what you wish for as you might just get it.
Do you really want a standard race strategy be to set the brakes till the trailing field jams, and some horses make breaks?

I have been both the driver getting days for jamming up the field, and also the trailing driver yelling like hell at and about the *** shutting the air.

Holland set the air before the 1/4 and was still there in 28 2/5
So how dam fast was the first 1/8 before he shut it down?

IMHO,
If you back it down server enough to cause confusion,
you get days and or a fine( I did).
If you cause a horse to make a break,
You get your number taken down.
Therefor as an owner, trainer, and driver I personally have no problem with the call.

[Yimmy]

Has anyone been able to, or at least TRIED to time the first eighth?

Did the horse trot out in 12:4 and throttle it down to 15:3 for the second eighth? Seems like an odd scenario. 

[the exactorman]

That is the part nobody is explaining. The horse went 28.2 to the 1/4. the "jam-up" happened around the quarter so how fast was he supposed to go? I guess if this happened at Mohawk we would all be able to see because they give you the first 1/8 AND the 1/4 time.
So the defenders of taking the #5 down, believe driver's should not rate a horse after he gets to the top in 28.2? maybe its me but I am not getting it.

[hungry]

That is the part nobody is explaining. The horse went 28.2 to the 1/4. the "jam-up" happened around the quarter so how fast was he supposed to go? I guess if this happened at Mohawk we would all be able to see because they give you the first 1/8 AND the 1/4 time.
So the defenders of taking the #5 down, believe driver's should not rate a horse after he gets to the top in 28.2? maybe its me but I am not getting it.

There's really no defense because the judges could have just suspended/fined the driver behind the scenes and that would have been that. There is a precedent in horse racing where you can fine the jock/driver and leave the betting results alone, so, it could have been done.

[Yimmy]

You CAN see Holland taking a hold approaching the quarter, there's no doubt about that.  But time ticks away markedly between that point and the point that Manzi runs up on the driver in front of him.   And, no less to the point, how can you be taken down for slowing the pace when the quarter in question was tied for fastest fraction in the race.  If he puts a 32 up there, fine, slam him (while leaving the result alone).  But 28.2?? 

[hungry]

You CAN see Holland taking a hold approaching the quarter, there's no doubt about that.  But time ticks away markedly between that point and the point that Manzi runs up on the driver in front of him.   And, no less to the point, how can you be taken down for slowing the pace when the quarter in question was tied for fastest fraction in the race.  If he puts a 32 up there, fine, slam him (while leaving the result alone).  But 28.2?? 

We all agree that it was borderline criminal what they did. When you start messing with the 'integrity' of the results, you have no game. Who wants to play a game where you have to hold your breath that your driver might try 'too hard' to win?

[Dolfan]

In defence of Manzi (going to sleep as some have suggested).
These 1,000 pound equines have neither power brakes or power steering. So you need not be asleep to crash.

Be careful posters what you wish for as you might just get it.
Do you really want a standard race strategy be to set the brakes till the trailing field jams, and some horses make breaks?

I have been both the driver getting days for jamming up the field, and also the trailing driver yelling like hell at and about the *** shutting the air.

Holland set the air before the 1/4 and was still there in 28 2/5
So how dam fast was the first 1/8 before he shut it down?

IMHO,
If you back it down server enough to cause confusion,
you get days and or a fine( I did).
If you cause a horse to make a break,
You get your number taken down.
Therefor as an owner, trainer, and driver I personally have no problem with the call.

My friend Lookin In, you are unhappy with Manzi getting slammed?  Why was he the only putz unable to control his 1,000 horse?  Do the other horses weigh less?

You make a very poor argument & your experiences as a driver (I believe you are a part-timer) do not offer any more insight than mine (or others) as a student of this game for nearly 35 years.

Holland gets his trotter to blow out of the gate & then slows it down - exactly what a driver should do.  If Manzi's horse was running up, how about pulling & going after the leader?  And I suggest that this logic be used regularly, which will completely end the strategy of shutting it down, therefor producing better quality racing as well.

I will once again state common harness racing knowledge, that the legendary Master, William R. Haughton's opinion was the same as the overwhelming majority on this thread.  Actually, I am surprised that you, a known historian of this sport, would offer a different opinion than that of the greatest horseman the sport has seen or ever will see.

[Fillmore Bear]

My friend Lookin In, you are unhappy with Manzi getting slammed?  Why was he the only putz unable to control his 1,000 horse?  Do the other horses weigh less?

You make a very poor argument & your experiences as a driver (I believe you are a part-timer) do not offer any more insight than mine (or others) as a student of this game for nearly 35 years.

Holland gets his trotter to blow out of the gate & then slows it down - exactly what a driver should do.  If Manzi's horse was running up, how about pulling & going after the leader?  And I suggest that this logic be used regularly, which will completely end the strategy of shutting it down, therefor producing better quality racing as well.

I will once again state common harness racing knowledge, that the legendary Master, William R. Haughton's opinion was the same as the overwhelming majority on this thread.  Actually, I am surprised that you, a known historian of this sport, would offer a different opinion than that of the greatest horseman the sport has seen or ever will see.

What an incredible combination of ignorance and arrogance you present.

Bill Haughton said he was against slow quarter fines.In no way did he say drivers should be allowed to sit down on the field.

Drivers do not get disqualified,horses do.If a horse slows enough to stack up a field,it doesn't matter whether it was the horses' idea or the drivers.

No comment from any experts here about Saturoay's dq at Balmoral for sitting down.12th.There was a previous one this year at Balmoral.
Horses have been dq'd for this since I was a little kid.

If a field is lined up toe to toe with each horse leaving a foot or two of daylight and the leader(or anybody else in line)abruptly slows 2 mph, Everybody slams into the horse ahead of him.Drivers can only see one or two horses ahead.It works and looks just like a train stopping.And makes almost as much noise. 

[Dolfan]

What an incredible combination of ignorance and arrogance you present.

Bill Haughton said he was against slow quarter fines.In no way did he say drivers should be allowed to sit down on the field.

Drivers do not get disqualified,horses do.If a horse slows enough to stack up a field,it doesn't matter whether it was the horses' idea or the drivers.

No comment from any experts here about Saturoay's dq at Balmoral for sitting down.12th.There was a previous one this year at Balmoral.
Horses have been dq'd for this since I was a little kid.

If a field is lined up toe to toe with each horse leaving a foot or two of daylight and the leader(or anybody else in line)abruptly slows 2 mph, Everybody slams into the horse ahead of him.Drivers can only see one or two horses ahead.It works and looks just like a train stopping.And makes almost as much noise. 

What are you, a YR judge?

I'm not going to stoop to your level of name-calling.  I have back problems and cannot bend down low enough to reach your level anyway. 

I stated Haughton's comments correctly, in that he felt all of the other drivers should be fined/penalized for sitting there - not the "fellow" trying to win the race.  And if you've been seeing those kind of DQs since you were a little kid, you must 13!  Additionally, virtually everyone here agrees that it was a bad DQ & we're all experienced horse-players who've been watching races for many years.

As for the Balmoral DQ, I have not a clue of what the judges were thinking their either - just another awful call.  Are you familiar with the expression "two wrongs don't make a right"?  What was Seekman to do?  Actually, it may even be a worse call than the YR Dq!

[JLB]

For Exactorman, the twin double was basically today's pick4, only back then, if you won the first two legs, you then needed to exchange your ticket for a ticket reflecting your selections for the final two legs. Given that a ticket with the first two winners had some value, there were people willing to buy your ticket before the exchange. What spurred the riots you are referring to, I don't know, but there certainly were instances where the third and/or fourth legs were "manipulated" once syndicates bought up tickets and used them on the well-meant plays for the final two legs.