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Author Topic: Doug o Neill criticism by penny chenery  (Read 2175 times)
HorseVoice*
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2012, 07:34:50 PM »

I shouldve said, I would have zero interest in using him. 

I didn't know you are a breeder. Awesome!

Who are your broodmares? Anyone (relatively) famous? (NBD if they are not -- some of the most productive broodmares were zilch on the track, and vice versa; I'm sure you are familiar with this phenomenon.)

Or if you are a buyer of yearlings, what sires / nicks do you look for in a youngster? And in what price range, if you don't mind. Use an agency / consignor, or fly solo?

Ever do any pinhooking?

Just curious; the more sales I go to, the more fascinated I am with the breeding side of the sport, and less with racing.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2012, 07:43:12 PM »

Don't have the money to throw into breeding.  Although I think its the most interesting part of horse racing.  Way too risky for me.  I own a small percentage of a few horses, purely as entertainment.  Have kids to put through college eventually, otherwise Id be more adventurous.
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2012, 08:28:50 PM »

What sales do you attend?  Do you go regularly? Ever purchase, or just watch?
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2012, 09:44:34 PM »



Where's the 'line' where you won't root for the horse because you cant stand the human connections?



Hungry, sorry about the delay. Date night with my long suffering wife.

My line disappears with winning the first 2 legs. I was rooting for Bodemeister in the Preakness not only because of his gutsy performance in the Derby, but also because of the slimy connections of IHA.  After the 2nd win I have to throw in as long as they didn't cheat with the horse to get him there. That poor horse had no control over who his connections were going to be.

As far as Bernie being the owner, think of the claw back investors would be entitled to when they sold syndicating rights.
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faster horses
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2012, 06:25:46 AM »

Interesting.  If it were a standardbred trainer " milkshaking" it would be front page news.  The thoroughbred industry has done a good job keeping somewhat of a lid on this.  I think this guy can get away with murder on Belmont Day and they'll hide it to preserve the integrity of the "Sport of Kings" and the Triple Crown.

Standardbreds wouldn't be front page news if they married Kim Kardashian.  And "milkshaking" has gotten plenty of press.  Also, keep in mind that O'Neill's latest violation was not actually for milkshaking, which the official findings specifically said was not involved.
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2012, 06:47:07 AM »

Standardbreds wouldn't be front page news if they married Kim Kardashian.  And "milkshaking" has gotten plenty of press.  Also, keep in mind that O'Neill's latest violation was not actually for milkshaking, which the official findings specifically said was not involved.

They haven't been tubing t-breds for quite awhile. Ask around.

The alkalizing agent comes in pill form now; you just throw it in the feed tub. This reportedly gets you over the TCO2 threshold before the race -- enough to impact performance -- and then just back under the threshold (via exertion / excretion) for any post-race testing that might occur.

(Remember: O'Neill's horse was over on TCO2 after the race...my guess is the horse started the race with a reading in the 50's, which can never occur "naturally" according to the experts.)

The findings might have just as well reported that they didn't find any elephant juice, either -- it doesn't mean there wasn't any chemical monkeyshines going on.
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HarnessFanDE
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2012, 07:06:06 AM »

She should be critical of herself for how she sold out the real story of Secretariat to the producers of the movie who basically changed the story anyway they saw fit that they thought would help line their and her pockets
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SHOWTIME!!!
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2012, 08:25:54 AM »

She should be critical of herself for how she sold out the real story of Secretariat to the producers of the movie who basically changed the story anyway they saw fit that they thought would help line their and her pockets

The movie was based on the book by William Nack, not a story told by her. She might have gotten a consulting payment from the studio, but Nack sold the book rights to Disney. The movie was an entertainment feature, not a documentary. Get off her back.
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2012, 08:39:22 AM »

So, here's the next part of my question if you don't mind. If all the horses are 'equal' in your love for them, why not use the connections as your 'seperator' in who you root for? You can root for nice horses/nice humans or nice horses/ shady humans equally, but why should you?

I personally think that by rooting for shady connections we're really saying "its ok to be shady, we will root for you just as much because your horse cancels out your bad behavior"

If Bernie Madoff had a horse going for the TC, would you root for him?

I know that Madoff is a much worse human being than O'Neill and Reddam, but, where do we draw the line? Is it ok to be a semi-slimeball and we will root for you because we love the horse, or will we only root against the TOTAL slimeballs?

Where's the 'line' where you won't root for the horse because you cant stand the human connections?


Big difference in scaming a person with money, who's tryin to make more of it, than someone who scams the poor and uneducated, when there just trying to pay there bills. Reddam is by far a bigger POS than Madoff.
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2012, 06:34:10 AM »

I shouldve said, I would have zero interest in using him.  35k for a juiced horse that raced 8 times.  Im hoping [Big Brown's] progeny flops like him in the belmont.

Well, you can follow along and root *against* Big Brown's sons and daughters...if that's how you like to live.

(Someday, you can explain to all of us what THE HORSE and his get did wrong.  screwy )


Formatting sucks, sorry...

2012 NAMED 2-YEAR OLDS

Name                S    Dam                      Broodmare Sire
All That                 C    Miss Forest City      Coronado's Quest
Always Curious        C    D'Enough               D'Accord
Archer Hill              C    La Femme Galante    Grand Slam
Aventurine              F    Julie Truly                   Miner's Mark
Bella Castani           F    Caroni                   Rubiano
Beware the Boys      F     Texas Kitty            Forest Wildcat
Big Bobby                   C    Siru                      Silver Deputy
Big Bride                F    River Bride              Kingmambo
Big Brown Brookski        F    Ms Brookski            Montbrook
Big Sam                 C    Sashay Away          Farma Way
Big Wildcat             C    Secret Wildcat        Forest Wildcat
Bluesie Brown         F    Blues for Sale (ARG)    Not for Sale (ARG)
Brown Almighty       C    Gone Goodbye        Gone for Real
Brown Eyes Blue      F    Golden Lips             Silver Ghost
Brown Laddie          C    Galway Lass           Victory Gallop
Brown Wonder         F    Wonder Lady Anne L    Real Quiet
Brown's Baby          F    Sydney Harbour      Action This Day
Charlie Allnut          C    Cold Awakening       Dehere
Commodus             C    Countess Imperio     Awesome Again
Copper Beeches      C    York Woods            Mining
Cry Wolf                 F    Out of Woods         Woodman
Do Da Tango          C    Sentimental Tango    Sentimental Slew
Elegant Bel             F    Mistical Bel             Bel Bolide
Expressly Yours       F    Jo Zak                   Vilzak
Get Me a Cocktail    F    Impressive Attire     Seeking the Gold
I Am Miss Brown      F    Formal Miss            Formal Dinner
Insolvent               F    Refrain                  Unbridled's Song
King Balthasar          C    Gift to the World      His Majesty
Mach Seven           F    Little Miss Zip         City Zip
Maracuya               F    Jealous and Jaded    Jade Hunter
Miss Lucky Sevens       F    Fancy Clancy           Rahy
Neat Package         F    Miss Loren (ARG)     Numerous
Ok Big Rock            C    Shedoesrock           Storm Boot
Pass the Hat          C    Procellous              Smarty Jones
Prince Brown          C    V. I. P. Princess      Thunder Gulch
Raon Bold               F    Wolfendale Island    Unbridled
Reaching Out          C    Touch too Much      Holy Bull
Ready for War         C    My Amandari           El Prado (IRE)
Rest Is Silence        C    Xtreme Bid             Dixie Brass
Rich Chocolate         F    Rizzi Girl                 Rizzi
Ruby Brown            F    Truely  Ruby           Red Ransom
Sanador                 C    Sugar Plum S J R     Point Given
Sassy Brunette       F    Turkappeal             Turkoman
Senioritis               C    She's a Lively One    Lively One
Smokey Brown        C    Smokey Diplomacy    Dynaformer
This Is My Day Job    F    Atrial Flutter           Lear Fan
Twining Hearts        C    Twining Star           Twining
Victory Bringer        C    Evil's Pic                Piccolino
Voodoo Fest           C    Voodoo Lady          Danehill
Wee Rosa              F    Ometz                   Deputy Commander
Wink Wink              F    Galaxy Dancer         Kingmambo
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faster horses
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2012, 07:21:07 AM »

They haven't been tubing t-breds for quite awhile. Ask around.

The alkalizing agent comes in pill form now; you just throw it in the feed tub. This reportedly gets you over the TCO2 threshold before the race -- enough to impact performance -- and then just back under the threshold (via exertion / excretion) for any post-race testing that might occur.

(Remember: O'Neill's horse was over on TCO2 after the race...my guess is the horse started the race with a reading in the 50's, which can never occur "naturally" according to the experts.)

The findings might have just as well reported that they didn't find any elephant juice, either -- it doesn't mean there wasn't any chemical monkeyshines going on.

That doesn't seem to me to be a fair reading of the commission's report.  When they specifically said there was no milkshake, I seriously doubt they were trying to draw distinctions between methods of administration, especially since they emphasized the "absolute insurer" rule.
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2012, 09:23:15 AM »

That doesn't seem to me to be a fair reading of the commission's report.  When they specifically said there was no milkshake, I seriously doubt they were trying to draw distinctions between methods of administration, especially since they emphasized the "absolute insurer" rule.

Well, then -- not to be a jerk about it -- if the bottom line is that O'Neill is guilty under the absolute insurer rule (and he is), what difference does it make in terms of the findings HOW the overage happened?

I think you have it backwards -- that the CHRB report said anything at all about the method of administration is a pretty blatant sign that they are trying to spin this in such a way that it looks like there was no hanky-panky here -- "oh, just a trivial overage, maybe it was in the water...no big deal". Riiiight.

(Again -- O'Neill's horse was over AFTER the race; the standards in place are meant for ANY time...before a race, out of competion, etc. How high was this horse's TCO2 reading *before* the race, I wonder? No hanky-panky, my ass.)

There is no way the CHRB doesn't know full well about the alkalizing agents coming in ez-to-use pill form -- it's not a big secret anymore, and they are trying to keep a lid on this, what with a California horse up for a chance at the Triple Crown.

There are millions and millions of dollars at stake here, for years to come, and the entire California horse racing community is falling all over themselves trying to de-emphasize O'Neill reputation (deserved or not) as a "juicer". Think about the hue and cry there would be if the CHRB said that O'Neill probably DID milkshake the horse -- the rumble and noise about a tainted TC candidate would make the Obama "birthers" seem like church mice. 
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2012, 10:58:10 AM »

Here we go kind of miss this kind of posting havent seen it since The Princes and the Queen and thats damm good for racen gets the juices flown.
I think Dougs thing was 10 years ago???
Sure Im from California a native and would love to see the winner of the next triple crown from California. Abso fricken loootly! 
The Triple Crown is the greatest acomplishment any horse can do and it is how we come to judge a true champion.
So to me to bash a trainer over a box of Arm and hammer has nothing to do with the fact that Ill Have Another may just very well be have the heart of those so many brillent winners before him to act like it taints the Ethics of a very VIP club is absolute HORSE SHIT!
Has nothing to do with God with Redman Oneal  at this point it is all up to that horse and him alone.Most of you dont give the damn horse  enough credit. Its the HEART OF A CHAMPION that wins th Triple Crown so lets just cut the updiiddy stone thrown crap.
Many times I disaprove of many trainers but do you really think comments from the wonderful owner MS P will stand in the way of a GREAT HORSE ?
Honestly I would welcome and look forward to a TC winner even if he swam the rio grande with 12 illeaguals on his back waven chicken feet.
Do I hate drugs and whips and barns full of two year olds being broke down trying to find that one Derby horse all the inhumane things I see done to horse dang tootn. But their aint enough drugs in the world you can fill a horse with to win the TC so lets just cut to the chase I say he wins !Even if he was a taxi for the cab in the bronx I would be tickled.
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2012, 11:07:42 AM »

The Triple Crown is the greatest acomplishment any horse can do and it is how we come to judge a true champion.
So to me to bash a trainer over a box of Arm and hammer has nothing to do with the fact that Ill Have Another may just very well be have the heart of those so many brillent winners before him to act like it taints the Ethics of a very VIP club is absolute HORSE SHIT!

Where was this unbiased, heartfelt defense of the horse with a tainted trainer when Big Brown was trying for the Triple Crown, fuzzy?

Oh, wait -- I know: Dutrow isn't from California...O'Neill is...and as we ALL know, *everything* from California is just that much better.

Got it.  Wink
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2012, 11:20:27 AM »

Oh, wait -- I know: Dutrow isn't from California...O'Neill is...and as we ALL know, *everything* from California is just that much better.

Or Dutrow's rep is just that much dirtier.  Grin
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2012, 11:34:00 AM »

Where was this unbiased, heartfelt defense of the horse with a tainted trainer when Big Brown was trying for the Triple Crown, fuzzy?

Oh, wait -- I know: Dutrow isn't from California...O'Neill is...and as we ALL know, *everything* from California is just that much better.

Got it.  Wink
dutrow and oneal no better no worse and did dutrow really get in the way of the big brown hell no I m getten older Hv and i just would love to see another one dont thing any trainer wears a chior robe do you you and I know better do I think its acceptable hell no but untill we ban all drugs we gots what we gots hv.
Learned if you dont know the game get a program and by God Ive got my edumacation I like you dont care so much for the gambleing but i do make a few wagers and read every sale catalogue tbred and standardbred read them pediagrees like I was written divorce papers.  The Breeding end of the racen industry is more fascinating than any and all racen forms.
Sooner or later they all get some kind of dirty test just the way it is but arm and hammer sure hurts a horse a lot less than any other shit i know of but i have seen autopsy on horse that has  beenused over long periods of times and the intestine were turned completely black.Mind you I have only seen two where i actually saw the intestine and knew the horses history of arm and hammr for many years.
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2012, 12:17:29 PM »

Or Dutrow's rep is just that much dirtier.  Grin

That's where the current California PR campaign to beatify O'Neill is a big bonus for him.

Dutrow never got out in front of the poorly written stories in the press when they starting casually flinging around his 70+ rulings, and as a result there are still plenty of otherwise knowledgeable people walking around, talking about Dutrow's "70+ positives", or his "70+ drug violations"...when I fact, the medication-related rulings are in the single digits over a 30+ year career with just under 7,000 starts. Dutrow's no saint, to be sure, but he isn't the second coming of Satan that everyone makes him out to be, either.

Last I checked, he and O'Neill had about the same number of medication rulings -- although I acknowledge that the relative severity of Dutrow's med violations trump O'Neill's.

Apparently, O'Neill and his minions can get foal papers filed on time, get horses their Lasix shots on time, and don't smoke weed in the barn...so I guess he's still worthy of glorification.  head shake
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »

O'Neill's saving grace is that California has guys like Jeff Mullins and a couple others who make O'Neill look like Mr. Clean.

Dutrow, on the other hand, has pretty much the #1 "rep" in NY, and is right up there toward the top nationally.  

And, by the way, continually claiming, "when I fact, the medication-related rulings are in the single digits over a 30+ year career with just under 7,000 starts" does not make it so. So let's quit with that, okay?

Here are the rulings up until 2008, showing well over "single digits" (though many are just Bute), but this does not include all the incidents for which things he has got such press for in the past 4 years. It's the same list I posted previously, that also had more than "single digits" in it then.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B265yMMHh7KJMWJjYTFhOGQtYzlkNC00MjM1LWFmMWUtYTAwMzE1ZTI1NWEz/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2012, 01:31:33 PM »

O'Neill's saving grace is that California has guys like Jeff Mullins and a couple others who make O'Neill look like Mr. Clean.

Dutrow, on the other hand, has pretty much the #1 "rep" in NY, and is right up there toward the top nationally.  

And, by the way, continually claiming, "when I fact, the medication-related rulings are in the single digits over a 30+ year career with just under 7,000 starts" does not make it so. So let's quit with that, okay?

Here are the rulings up until 2008, showing well over "single digits" (though many are just Bute), but this does not include all the incidents for which things he has got such press for in the past 4 years. It's the same list I posted previously, that also had more than "single digits" in it then.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B265yMMHh7KJMWJjYTFhOGQtYzlkNC00MjM1LWFmMWUtYTAwMzE1ZTI1NWEz/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

Your list shows TEN (several are duplicates, including the one for mepivicaine).

The one for Minnesota involves medication, but only because it wasn't listed on his horse's meds card when he shipped in there, so that's more admin than meds, but we'll make it 11, if you must (in your list -- I know there are 2 or 3 more not listed).

So I was a little off; the spirit of my original statement remains: it's far, FAR less than the 70+ number the (un)righteously indignant keep throwing around. It's not even "well over single digits", either, so let's quit with that too, okay?

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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2012, 02:00:01 PM »


I am not aware of her comments quotes but if they are what I believe them to be or could be, I think she is off her rocker.

I'll Have Another hasn't shown any positives.  This is the big one.  The Triple  enchilada. 

Remember, comments critical to HER steed, made long after the fact, that he was doped on steroids, this back in the day when detection was impossible?  Maybe that is causing her problems.
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« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2012, 04:35:13 PM »

So I was a little off; the spirit of my original statement remains: it's far, FAR less than the 70+ number the (un)righteously indignant keep throwing around.

The "70+ violations" is everything he's got, including the forgery, faked urine sample, failure to report criminal conviction, fighting, lying to racing officials, etc. It's not just drugs. I think everyone knows that. And it's far more than simply not having foal papers on file.

Quote
It's not even "well over single digits", either, so let's quit with that too, okay?

By my reading of that list, there are 13 different drug violations - "well over" single digits, which end with 9. Then add in the last 4 years, including the two they nailed him for in 2011, the loaded syringes in his desk, and the butorphanol positive, and didn't he get nicked for some high CO2 readings, too, and then there's that recent mid-Atlantic violation when they dosed the horse too close to race time, so really, there's no way to claim "single digits" with a straight face.

Here was the Board's ruling on Dutrow, really too bad we don't have (or I can't find) "Exhibit B".

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/101211DutrowFindingOrder.pdf
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »

I am not aware of her comments quotes but if they are what I believe them to be or could be, I think she is off her rocker.

They are here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/05/secretariats-owner-on-the-triple-crown-and-racing-integrity/257714/
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« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2012, 06:16:39 PM »

The "70+ violations" is everything he's got, including the forgery, faked urine sample, failure to report criminal conviction, fighting, lying to racing officials, etc. It's not just drugs. I think everyone knows that.

Quite the opposite, in my experience. Yes, the New York horseplayers know, but as a group, they are FAR more into horse racing and all of the little nuances and tidbits of information than anywhere else in the country.

As the average horseplayer in Chicago if they know Dutrow, and if they do, ask how many "drug violations" he has; those that claim to know anything about Dutrow are more likely to say, "...well, I read [or heard] he has 70 or more.." than anything else. 

By my reading of that list, there are 13 different drug violations - "well over" single digits, which end with 9.

Even if we were counting dinosaurs the size of T-Rex, 13 still isn't "well over" 9. It's a little more.

The thing is, you never bothered to count before, and you thought it was way more. You're probably surprised as hell that it's only 13 -- and I think you miscounted, anyway.

there's no way to claim "single digits" with a straight face

Which is why I said, "...so I was a little off" in my previous post. Point previously made and corrected. 

No matter how you slice it, though, I was far closer to correct than anything you've previously intimated. Frankly, I think you rather like the idea that people think Dutrow has way more med findings than he does.


Ah, yes, the infamous Witch Hunt Document.

The butorphanol positive was never going to be enough to create a marginally credible "double secret probation" order, was it, so it's a darn good thing those syringes showed up in Dutrow's UNSECURED barn. I could walk into Dutrow's barn right now and put syringes in his desk drawer, if no one was around. Backstretch security in New York is a fecking joke.

Now, which one of Dutrow's horses tested positive for xyzaline, the drug that was in those syringes that the investigator "found" in his barn.

Oh. None? Well, certainly Dutrow has prior positives involving xyzaline, right? Oh...none of those, either?

It couldn't POSSIBLY be a jam-job, could it?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »

Well, then -- not to be a jerk about it -- if the bottom line is that O'Neill is guilty under the absolute insurer rule (and he is), what difference does it make in terms of the findings HOW the overage happened?

I think you have it backwards -- that the CHRB report said anything at all about the method of administration is a pretty blatant sign that they are trying to spin this in such a way that it looks like there was no hanky-panky here -- "oh, just a trivial overage, maybe it was in the water...no big deal". Riiiight.

(Again -- O'Neill's horse was over AFTER the race; the standards in place are meant for ANY time...before a race, out of competion, etc. How high was this horse's TCO2 reading *before* the race, I wonder? No hanky-panky, my ass.)

There is no way the CHRB doesn't know full well about the alkalizing agents coming in ez-to-use pill form -- it's not a big secret anymore, and they are trying to keep a lid on this, what with a California horse up for a chance at the Triple Crown.

There are millions and millions of dollars at stake here, for years to come, and the entire California horse racing community is falling all over themselves trying to de-emphasize O'Neill reputation (deserved or not) as a "juicer". Think about the hue and cry there would be if the CHRB said that O'Neill probably DID milkshake the horse -- the rumble and noise about a tainted TC candidate would make the Obama "birthers" seem like church mice. 

The difference is between an innocent bad test (and they do happen) and cheating (which also happens).  Everything you've said assumes the latter.  If it's the former, then you're full of crap.  I have no idea which is the case--but you don't either.
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« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2012, 07:47:55 PM »

The difference is between an innocent bad test (and they do happen) and cheating (which also happens).  Everything you've said assumes the latter.  If it's the former, then you're full of crap.  I have no idea which is the case--but you don't either.

Stick to what you have "no idea" about; don't project your lack of knowledge and information on me.

Here's the exact commentary from the Hearing Officer (emphasis mine):

“We rejected (O’Neill’s) well argued due process defense primarily because of the overwhelming evidence that California trainers in general and Mr. O’Neill in particular have learned various ways to manipulate TCO2 scores without serving milkshakes."

If this were O'Neill's first TCO2 overage (or if the high TCO2 level was detected before the race), I might listen to the "innocent bad test" theory...but it's not the first time one of his horses test incomprehensibly high after a race, when TCO2 readings should be at their lowest.

(I'm sure O'Neill knows how much alkalizing agent to give each of his horses *now*, in order to come in just under the high mark. If California racing gets the money they want to be able to afford unannounced out-of-competition and pre-race testing, we will start getting a constant stream of trainer suspensions, until they all figure out some other way to beat the box.)

This trainer pushes the envelope on things just like the other top trainers do. One of O'Neill's horses was over the limit, and he got caught.

And if he was my trainer, I'd help pay his fine, because he knows how to win and make giant money. That's TODAY's brand of horse racing, like it or not. 45 day suspensions and monetary fines are merely the cost of doing business.
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