Chicago Barn to Wire BRIS
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


October 19, 2014, 11:28:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Have other causes for dropping handle ever been accounted for in recapture?  (Read 825 times)
edwardwilliam
Annnnnnnnnd they're off!
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6252

Rebate shops are not the devil.


WWW

Ignore
« on: May 18, 2006, 11:02:10 AM »

I got some great information on recapture yesterday, and I thank everyone who helped my thread with some questions on recapture.

Now, I'm curious about this: have their ever been any adjustments to the "baseline" that they use to calculate recapture?  I think it's quite possible to posit an argument that the recapture amounts requested aren't fair because of external effects that have caused the handle to fall.

The point of the law is offseting losses in handle caused by full-card simulcasting.  BUT, what about all the other things that have made handle fall?  Shorter fields?  Lower purses?  Lack of interest in the sport?  Considering that there have been tracks across the country that have folded since 1994 -- it seems pretty unfair to pull money out of the horsemen's purse account based on that standard, no?

Best,
EW
Report to moderator   Logged

Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Richard Breth
Guest

« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2006, 03:13:58 PM »

I got some great information on recapture yesterday, and I thank everyone who helped my thread with some questions on recapture.

Now, I'm curious about this: have their ever been any adjustments to the "baseline" that they use to calculate recapture?  I think it's quite possible to posit an argument that the recapture amounts requested aren't fair because of external effects that have caused the handle to fall.

The point of the law is offseting losses in handle caused by full-card simulcasting.  BUT, what about all the other things that have made handle fall?  Shorter fields?  Lower purses?  Lack of interest in the sport?  Considering that there have been tracks across the country that have folded since 1994 -- it seems pretty unfair to pull money out of the horsemen's purse account based on that standard, no?

Look to the IRB report. Illinois handle didt fall it stayed the same when simulcast came. Very obvious people moved there same money from Illinois bets to simulcats races.
Report to moderator   Logged
nelly
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 388




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2006, 03:45:07 PM »

EW,

You make some excellent points which is why the horseman should have never signed the agreement on
recapture without any provisions to be amended at a later date!!!!!  What about the offshore accounts
that has taken most of the whales out of the tracks handle and their is very little the tracks can do about that!!!!  I think your point about a new baseline would improve this situation for the horseman but getting the tracks to sign off well thats a whole different story!!!!
Report to moderator   Logged
edwardwilliam
Annnnnnnnnd they're off!
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6252

Rebate shops are not the devil.


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2006, 04:24:41 PM »

Look to the IRB report. Illinois handle didt fall it stayed the same when simulcast came. Very obvious people moved there same money from Illinois bets to simulcats races.


There's no question that there's been some transfer.  It's obvious by looking at the report.

At the same time, the sport has changed wildly in those 10 years.  It's just silly to think that there hasn't been other facts.  There's been roughly a 20% drop in total handle, and also 28% of inflation since 1994.  Given this, the real handle has depressed right around 45% since 1994.

This doesn't even mention a very key point: the tracks MAKE MONEY FROM THE SIMOS.  It's not like this is pure loss.  And, to add insult to injury, some of the simulcast money (along with IL handle from OTBs) isn't even split even with the horsemen.

Eh, I'm almost sick of talking about it.  The horsemen just got terribly out negotiated.  Hopefully the governor will sign this bill, and we won't have recapture for at least two years.

Best,
EW
Report to moderator   Logged

Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Jack Kelly
Newbie
*
Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2006, 04:41:23 PM »

The tracks make more than the horsemen at the OTB's when a better wagers on Illinois races. When they bet on the out of state races, the split is 50/50 with the horsemen. That is why they want to "recapture" what they say they are losing from bettors shifting over to the simulcast. You are right that other factors come into play that increase recapture. It is a complicated issue and the only way to gain anything from the tracks is through negotiating with them. The law is unfair and wrong, but it is the law and the only way to make it fair is to fight with track management.
Report to moderator   Logged
Richard Breth
Guest

« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2006, 06:05:03 PM »

There's no question that there's been some transfer.  It's obvious by looking at the report.

At the same time, the sport has changed wildly in those 10 years.  It's just silly to think that there hasn't been other facts.  There's been roughly a 20% drop in total handle, and also 28% of inflation since 1994.  Given this, the real handle has depressed right around 45% since 1994.

This doesn't even mention a very key point: the tracks MAKE MONEY FROM THE SIMOS.  It's not like this is pure loss.  And, to add insult to injury, some of the simulcast money (along with IL handle from OTBs) isn't even split even with the horsemen.

What simulcats dont split with horsemen? 50-50 is the spilt. OTB moneys split also its more in favor of tracks. point of recapture like Peter says. What money isn't split at all?
Report to moderator   Logged
edwardwilliam
Annnnnnnnnd they're off!
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6252

Rebate shops are not the devil.


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2006, 06:17:31 PM »

What simulcats dont split with horsemen? 50-50 is the spilt. OTB moneys split also its more in favor of tracks. point of recapture like Peter says. What money isn't split at all?

My mistake.  I assumed all the money was dealt with at the same splits.

Still, bottom line: you just don't authorize full-card simulcasting if it's a bad move for the tracks and the horsemen.  Period.  This stupid ruse is just foolish.

Best,
EW
Report to moderator   Logged

Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Richard Breth
Guest

« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2006, 06:31:34 PM »

My mistake.  I assumed all the money was dealt with at the same splits.

Still, bottom line: you just don't authorize full-card simulcasting if it's a bad move for the tracks and the horsemen.  Period.  This stupid ruse is just foolish.

Horsemen thought it was good moves for them. Thay were who wanted full card. Thay had the big task Force. Thay hope simulcats to increase handle larger over all and help purses. getting what horse men wanted is why a safety valve for tracks. In case horse men were wrong.   

Law is bad and stpid. We agree. but its the law there was reasons which was changing splits of bets in favors of horse men. Now what. Its tracks money by law. to change there has to be trade off. Whats the trade off. Its my argument all ways.
Report to moderator   Logged
edwardwilliam
Annnnnnnnnd they're off!
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6252

Rebate shops are not the devil.


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2006, 06:43:49 PM »

Horsemen thought it was good moves for them. Thay were who wanted full card. Thay had the big task Force. Thay hope simulcats to increase handle larger over all and help purses. getting what horse men wanted is why a safety valve for tracks. In case horse men were wrong.   

Law is bad and stpid. We agree. but its the law there was reasons which was changing splits of bets in favors of horse men. Now what. Its tracks money by law. to change there has to be trade off. Whats the trade off. Its my argument all ways.

I'm glad I've started these threads, as I'm learning more about the history of how this happened.

I know it's a far-fetched analogy, but awhile back, the Supreme Court said slavery was okay.  Eventually, they decided that maybe -- just maybe -- it was a bad idea.  It was changed.

I'm hoping someone can toss recapture in the bucket with Dred Scott.

Best,
EW
Report to moderator   Logged

Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
TC
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4183




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2006, 06:49:28 PM »

I'm glad I've started these threads, as I'm learning more about the history of how this happened.

I know it's a far-fetched analogy, but awhile back, the Supreme Court said slavery was okay.  Eventually, they decided that maybe -- just maybe -- it was a bad idea.  It was changed.

I'm hoping someone can toss recapture in the bucket with Dred Scott.

Best,
EW
What's the matter with recapture EW ?  Are you sick and tired of seeing certain track owners drive around in a new luxury SUV every year with funds pillaged (by law) from the horsemen too ?  Then, you wonder how said person even knows how to operate that motor vehicle.   Wink   trotter  TC
Report to moderator   Logged
c.l.rogers
Guest

« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2006, 07:13:33 PM »

There's a side bar to the simulcast discussion. Think back a few weeks to the news articles about the new legislation, #1918.

The consistent story from the industry in the articles was handle on Illinois tracks has dropped from $1 billion to $300 million since riverboat gaming came along. The implication was clear. Riverboats killed wagering on horse racing. No mention of the fact that handle on Illinois races shrank to $300 million because of something the Illinois racing industry did to itself, full card simulcasting. The missing $700 million handle is still being wagered at local tracks and OTB's, but on out-of-state tracks.
Report to moderator   Logged
Auntie Mae
Guest

« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2006, 07:20:10 AM »

The ladies in my book club all agree that recapture has to go and the base year turned out to be a high point that makes the problem worst as all of the other factors chip away harness racing handle. As we talked about it, we were wondering what the effect of the harness purses getting the money from betting on simucasted races at night (both breeds) while thoroughbred purses get it during the day time is. We are told that is in the recapture deal. As the girls and I share our ignorance about this topic it seems neither OTBs or Full Card Simucasting did anything to improve purses. However we don't think doing away with those provisions in horseing law will cause fans to return to the race tracks so just reverseing past amendments probably won't help. It seems to us that horsemen need to do a new deal that considers the realites of today with careful planing for tomorrow. But what do we know? We are just a bunch of old women with nothing better to talk about.       
Report to moderator   Logged
Auntie Mae
Guest

« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2006, 07:23:29 AM »

The ladies in my book club all agree that recapture has to go and the base year turned out to be a high point that makes the problem worst as all of the other factors chip away harness racing handle. As we talked about it, we were wondering what the effect of the harness purses getting the money from betting on simulcasted races at night (both breeds) while thoroughbred purses get it during the day time is. We are told that is in the recapture deal. As the girls and I share our ignorance about this topic it seems neither OTBs or Full Card Simulcasting did anything to improve purses. However we don't think doing away with those provisions in horse racing law will cause fans to return to the race tracks so just reversing past amendments probably won't help. It seems to us that horsemen need to do a new deal that considers the realties of today with careful planing for tomorrow. But what do we know? We are just a bunch of old women with nothing better to talk about.
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Arlington Million
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy