Chicago Barn to Wire
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


December 22, 2014, 04:39:28 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: TSC Elite  (Read 2832 times)
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2011, 05:11:46 PM »

You're quite free to ask him, but what does he really know besides the raw numbers? Can he quantify the "why" guys and their money are staying away in droves?

YOU are HIL-larious, my friend.

You have all off these elaborate opinions on the "why" part already formed in your mind -- based on your dislike of rebates, and some skanky chart of consolidated year-to-year handle numbers, nothing more (data-wise) -- and you want to know if Jim can get us reliable answers when he likely has a treasure-trove of REAL handle data and analysis available to him?

 laughing guy

Don't worry...if I don't ask all the "right" questions, we will try to "draw you out" -- shy, reluctant, reticent, "keep-your-opinions-to-yourself" kind of guy that you are -- and see if you have any concerns with the information being presented.

 laughing guy X 10.
Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2011, 05:40:33 PM »

YOU are HIL-larious, my friend.

You have all off these elaborate opinions on the "why" part already formed in your mind -- based on your dislike of rebates, and some skanky chart of consolidated year-to-year handle numbers, nothing more (data-wise) -- and you want to know if Jim can get us reliable answers when he likely has a treasure-trove of REAL handle data and analysis available to him?

What I have in my mind are things real people have told me and others about "why". Not just a few. Jim may have things people have told him, too, but are his numbers going to show the why? I don't know. But do feel free to ask, now that you have put your neck on the line. I'd be interested to see his answer. Be fair about it, though, if f you're going to ask about just one facility, and get the whole scoop. Not just how much one or two self-important goofs might have increased their personal handle, but also how much rebating by other entities has or has not hurt handle at that one facility. Add in ADW while you're at it.

And, I might add, your spirited though statless defense of rebates is based on nothing but your own predisposed opinions. So you don't have a lot of room to talk in that regard.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:42:17 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2011, 05:55:01 PM »

What I have in my mind are things real people have told me and others about "why". Not just a few. Jim may have things people have told him, too, but are his numbers going to show the why? I don't know. But do feel free to ask, now that you have put your neck on the line. I'd be interested to see his answer. Be fair about it, though, if f you're going to ask about just one facility, and get the whole scoop. Not just how much one or two self-important goofs might have increased their personal handle, but also how much rebating by other entities has or has not hurt handle at that one facility. Add in ADW while you're at it.

I will be fair. I want a REAL answer based on data...not stories, bile and bitterness concocted by some less-than-honest busted out horseplayers that stumbled on the rebate scapegoat, most of whom have likely never, ever taken personal responsibility for their own losing.

(The pre-rebates excuse for leaving the game used to be: "I can't take these goddamned jockeys stiffing every *** day and getting away with it -- I quit!" Remember? Are you going to tell me you never heard that one?)

And, I might add, your spirited though statless defense of rebates is based on nothing but your own predisposed opinions. So you don't have a lot of room to talk in that regard.

You just haven't been paying attention. I offered a VERY strong piece of common sense based evidence, that if rebates were really killing handle, the practice of rebating would have stopped by now; you are so put off by the idea that some guys get rebates and you don't that you can't see this most obvious of empirical clues. And besides, you have that chart that proves without a doubt that declines in handle causes us to get older...  head shake
Report to moderator   Logged
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2011, 05:56:49 PM »

You'd have to rebate winners 10% to make a difference in the way people gamble.

You win, you give back 20%, the equivalent of a minority interest.  Yep. that makes real sense to the winner.  screwy




Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2011, 06:04:42 PM »

You'd have to rebate winners 10% to make a difference in the way people gamble.

Some players are getting a full 15 - 16%.

You win, you give back 20%, the equivalent of a minority interest.  Yep. that makes real sense to the winner.  screwy

Wow. You have no idea at all how pari-mutuel betting works, do you?

This IS fascinating!
Report to moderator   Logged
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2011, 06:08:34 PM »

Some players are getting a full 15 - 16%.

Yeah ? Who and where?

Wow. You have no idea at all how pari-mutuel betting works, do you?

This IS fascinating!

Yeah, you're fascinating too.   laughing guy
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2011, 06:15:54 PM »

Yeah ? Who and where?

Randy Gallo. He owns his own OTB, and is its sole horseplayer. After paying signal fees, he pockets the rest.
Report to moderator   Logged
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2011, 06:19:02 PM »

Randy Gallo. He owns his own OTB, and is its sole horseplayer. After paying signal fees, he pockets the rest.



Yep.  That has a LOT to do with you and ME.  You're a joke.
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2011, 06:22:45 PM »



Yep.  That has a LOT to do with you and ME.  You're a joke.

Listen jagbag, you asked who was getting a 15% rebate, and I told you who.

So then you act like a prick about it, because you didn't expect that I had a real answer to the question? You're a child.
Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2011, 06:24:33 PM »

You'd have to rebate winners 10% to make a difference in the way people gamble.

No, not really.

Discounting insane guys with too much money and a gambling problem who don't really care how much they lose, most of the guys putting the big bucks through the windows pre-rebates each year were already doing pretty well, either winning, or almost winning. If you've got a guy who was already putting $500k through the windows each year, maybe he's winning back $485K or even coming out ahead, but barely. As you correctly point out, 20% takeout is tough to beat. But now let's look at a situation where someone is willing to rebate him 7%, which isn't unusual, and now the guy who was losing slightly at 97% previously is magically a net 4% winner, and the guy who was winning at 102% is now taking down 109%. At those handle levels, that's pretty big money. The 97% guy goes from losing $15k per year to "winning" $10k. The 102% guy goes from winning $10k to winning $45k. All of a sudden, through no particular skill increase on their part, they're "winning" a lot more. So what's the natural reaction to that? You guessed it - ramp up the level of wagering. 2 times. 3 times. 4 times. Maybe 5 times. All depends on the point of diminishing returns, to where you're not killing your own prices. This is the whole HANA-approved theory behind how rebates are going to increase total handle - if you make me a winner, I will bet more.

Problem for total handle and all other bettors though, is if these guys were winning back 97% or 102% before rebates, they were already beating 80% takeout by the 17% or 22% and taking that much win dough out of the pools, and now all of sudden they've increased the win they take out by whatever that ramp up factor, so there's less left in there for the guys that were already losing. Maybe someone didn't mind coming to the track with $300 and leaving with just $250, but now all of a sudden he's coming with $300 and laving with $200, consistently. Not anything to do with him playing worse, or the rebated guy playing better, but everything to do with the fact that the tracks and horsemen have abandoned their traditional parimutuel role of disinterested broker, and taken sides to subsidize a small percentage of the wagering public, in essence paying them to play against everyone else, like a Vegas casino would do. The little guy is no longer playing against just all the other players in the pool (and the takeout), he's now playing against the track and horsemen, too.
Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2011, 06:29:24 PM »

I will be fair. I want a REAL answer based on data

Fine then. Produce the pro-rebate numbers, like I've been asking you to do, and dispense with all the bottom feeder gratuitous insults you've been relying on as argument, and which are, to tell you the truth, far less intelligent than Howard's usual counter-argument on the Derby List - "that's a stupid idea".
Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2011, 06:30:33 PM »

Listen jagbag, you asked who was getting a 15% rebate, and I told you who.

So then you act like a prick about it, because you didn't expect that I had a real answer to the question? You're a child.



You're a child.    Randy Gallo owns an OTB.  That's hilarious.  Yeah he gets 15%.  That has a lot to do with you and me and , ,,, the man in the moon.
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2011, 06:34:11 PM »

Randy Gallo owns an OTB.  That's hilarious.  Yeah he gets 15%.  That has a lot to do with you and me and , ,,, the man in the moon.

Randy Gallo is a horseplayer who gets a bigger rebate than the 10% you apparently thought was unattainable.

You asked your question, and you got a valid answer. Grow up.
Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2011, 06:35:46 PM »

Many of the "partners" at Randy's OTB also get a damn good rebate.

Nevertheless, overall handle is down.
Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2011, 06:36:29 PM »

Randy Gallo is a horseplayer who gets a bigger rebate than the 10% you apparently thought was unattainable.

You asked your question, and you got a valid answer. Grow up.



I never said it was unattainable.  But it is unattainable for you and the man on the street.  the man on the street is betting into a guaranteed LEMON.
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2011, 06:43:36 PM »



I never said it was unattainable.  But it is unattainable for you and the man on the street.  the man on the street is betting into a guaranteed LEMON.

First, it is NOT unattainable for me, and second, if the man on the street isn't smart enough to figure out how to get a decent rebate, that's not my problem.
Report to moderator   Logged
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2011, 06:45:57 PM »

First, it is NOT unattainable for me, and second, if the man on the street isn't smart enough to figure out how to get a decent rebate, that's not my problem.

Good for you.  Because I've seen your picks.  And you need it.
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
HorseVoice*
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4537




Ignore
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2011, 06:49:10 PM »

Good for you.  Because I've seen your picks.  And you need it.

...while your system picks are way down...

Enough from you -- back under your rock.
Report to moderator   Logged
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2011, 06:53:09 PM »

...while your system picks are way down...

Enough from you -- back under your rock.

If we all had to rely on our picks on the forum, we'd all be toast. For example, some people who did fairly well on this year's BC contest absolutely stunk it out last year, and vice versa. It's your personal bottom line of actual bets that counts.
Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2011, 06:55:10 PM »

If we all had to rely on our picks on the forum, we'd all be toast. For example, some people who did fairly well on this year's BC contest absolutely stunk it out last year, and vice versa. It's your personal bottom line of actual bets that counts.



I've seen your picks, too.   Pretty stinky.   laughing guy
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
honest & balanced terry
formerly plain old clockerterry
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13173

silver-tongued track bum




Ignore
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2011, 06:58:47 PM »



I've seen your picks, too.   Pretty stinky.   laughing guy

They were this year, for sure. But last year, they were better than many of the strutting cocks of the forum, so go figure.
Report to moderator   Logged

He's literate and funny.  I can see why he angers you so.
pezz97
Guest

« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2011, 07:13:35 PM »

Ok after reading a few threads he posted in today, I am no longer defending the airplane guy in his selections thread against a just a big of a goof in Maymoral. They are both idiots...
Report to moderator   Logged
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2011, 07:26:28 PM »

Ok after reading a few threads he posted in today, I am no longer defending the airplane guy in his selections thread against a just a big of a goof in Maymoral. They are both idiots...

Thanks for your support and concern.  I never was rude enough to say to your face, "I can defend myself."   
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2011, 07:48:20 PM »

Can I give you my take on rebates for the average guy?

A marketing tool.  A come on.  And now there are no more ,,, for you.  So what.

NYRA offered 1/2 to 1% from the get go.  They didn't consider using rebates central to their marketing effort.  But CD, had to compete in a different market and had to distinguish themselves in some way vs their competiton, or at least, had to meet the competition.  Now they don't offer rebates, but they may re-offer them if they find they need to sign up newbies, or to meet competition. Just my opinion.
Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
Round Table
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2845

And then I saw her, coming out of the sun.




Ignore
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2011, 08:24:51 PM »

.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 08:26:23 PM by 7474505B » Report to moderator   Logged

They ought to return to Tampa and fix the mistake they made.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.189 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Breeders' Cup
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Breeders' Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy