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Author Topic: TSC Elite  (Read 2812 times)
HorseVoice*
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 04:24:09 PM »

Not deliberately.

A bit late to back out now that they're committed.

So, the tracks know that rebates damage handle...but they can't "back out now". So they (deliberately) continue to give rebates.

Which is it?

Your argument has so many holes in it that even you can't reconcile your own inconsistencies.

The handle numbers do not lie. They are down

True, to here.

ADW and rebates have been a failure, both for growing the business like many players promised, or even for holding onto existing business.

Simply not enough information available to support that conclusion...and you know it. You are NOT that simple.

Your ARE pretty stubborn when cornered and no longer able to adequately support your personal dogma, though: if, for example, you were arguing against gun control, I have the idea that you would opine that everyone who had ever been shot in the head merely died of a bad headache.
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 04:52:20 PM »

So, the tracks know that rebates damage handle...but they can't "back out now". So they (deliberately) continue to give rebates.

Which is it?

They have already damaged their handle and chased away a certain segment of their customer base. Those customers are unlikely to be coming back.

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Simply not enough information available to support that conclusion...and you know it.

Not enough information to dispute it, either. The actual facts on the table are indisputable, however - nationally and at a state level, handle has tanked during exactly the same time frame in home wagering and rebates have become widespread. ADW and rebates have failed to build business, as their proponents promised.

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Your ARE pretty stubborn when cornered and no longer able to adequately support your personal dogma

Where are any actual numbers that support YOUR dogma? I asked you before for the stats to back up your version of what rebates etc. have accomplished, and you've yet to produce any. At least I have stats to point at in support of my theory, even though one might dispute the exact cause.
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 05:32:13 PM »

The actual facts on the table are indisputable, however - nationally and at a state level, handle has tanked during exactly the same time frame in home wagering and rebates have become widespread.


Yes. Coincidentally, you and I are about 8 - 10 years older since this topic first came up; do rebates and increased ADW usage cause aging? Or would we have gotten older anyway?

(Of course I'm being a sarcastic smartass...but I've tried every other way possible to get you to see the inadequacy, the inconclusiveness of the data you are comparing, and it's like talking to a wall.)

ADW and rebates have failed to build business, as their proponents promised.

If the proponents of ADW and rebates and promised that these things would build business "no matter what, overcoming any and all obstacles known and unknown, seen and unforseen", then you would be right. To my knowledge, no such outlandish promises were made, so your statement can't be supported by simply correlating the increase in ADW wagering and rebates with the decline in handle. Frankly, Terry -- that is the kind of ill-reasoned conclusion I expect to read from a certain poster that I can no longer criticize -- not you.

Where are any actual numbers that support YOUR dogma? I asked you before for the stats to back up your version of what rebates etc. have accomplished, and you've yet to produce any. At least I have stats to point at in support of my theory, even though one might dispute the exact cause.

Yes, but your stats aren't detailed enough to support any sort of root cause analysis, and therefore are pretty much worthless.

I have no stats at the moment to support MY dogma -- only strong evidence in the form of common sense: if rebates and the increased use of ADW are killing handle, would the tracks really continue to embrace it?

Of course not. They would stop whichever was causing a loss in handle...and both if necessary...in an instant.

If you are THAT stubborn that you can't accept this evidence -- and fer chris'sakes, it don't get much more obvious than that -- I'll have to check with a few contacts and see what kind of actual data are being used to justify the continuation of rebates and ADW wagering.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2011, 06:11:13 PM »

If the proponents of ADW and rebates and promised that these things would build business "no matter what, overcoming any and all obstacles known and unknown, seen and unforseen", then you would be right. To my knowledge, no such outlandish promises were made

Yes, they were, and the archives of forums like the Derby List and PA are full of such promises, as are the supporting documents of the NTRA Big Players Panel. These things were going to be positive for racing, and lead to mush increased wagering, so that's why tracks should make them available to the ultra-valuable big players/high end customers. These high end customers have failed to deliver, overall.

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Yes, but your stats aren't detailed enough to support any sort of root cause analysis, and therefore are pretty much worthless

They're quite good enough to say that ADW and rebates have not delivered on their promise. (Nor, for that matter, has all the free slots money that's been pumped into purses.)

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I have no stats at the moment to support MY dogma -- only strong evidence in the form of common sense: if rebates and the increased use of ADW are killing handle, would the tracks really continue to embrace it?

What's this thread all about, other than rebates/rewards being discontinued?
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 06:25:44 PM »

I was going to suggest you two have a truce for the holiday season but then I had a second thought.  It might get too boring around here.  So forget it.
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 06:40:16 PM »

Yes, they were, and the archives of forums like the Derby List and PA are full of such promises, as are the supporting documents of the NTRA Big Players Panel.

There is specific language in there that says giving rebates will increase handle, "no matter what"? Nice try, but no. I read all that stuff. There are NO such guarantees.

What's this thread all about, other than rebates/rewards being discontinued?

Almost there, praise Jesus!

The thread got started as a complaint about TSC discontinuing rebates / rewards for the smaller players. TwinSpires has apparently determined that there is no upside to providing rebates and rewards to those players that wager less than $25,000 per year (i.e., the $2 bettor).

Rebates to the players who bet more will continue...unabated.  maroon
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2011, 01:08:23 AM »

There is specific language in there that says giving rebates will increase handle, "no matter what"?

No, the words "no matter what" were not written, and I don't believe I claimed they were. However, the promises of increased handle and handle growth were definitely promoted, and that has not come to pass. The numbers say so. Fail, on the promises. Three guys may have indeed increased their handle, but overall, "all guys" have not.

And there we come back to to my original sarcastic comment to your, "tracks finally started catering to their high-end" customers comment. "And with indisputably positive results". The results have been anything BUT.
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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2011, 01:57:25 AM »

However, the promises of increased handle and handle growth were definitely promoted, and that has not come to pass. The numbers say so. Fail, on the promises. Three guys may have indeed increased their handle, but overall, "all guys" have not.

The results have been anything BUT.

Again, taking the net result (diminished overall handle) to prove one specific theory (that rebates have failed to produce handle growth) is an extremely slippery slope.

Absent detailed information, it's quite possible that there is an intermediate set of results that shows that rebates have in fact led to an increase in handle amongst the group of players that receive them, while play from the rest of the base of horseplayers has dropped off to such an extent that it wiped out the gains achieved by granting rebates.

I'll have to see if my contacts have access to such a level of wagering detail; as long as you are in your "scorched earth" mode of insisting that rebates have failed because overall handle has dropped, we might as well be claiming that granting rebates actually DOES cause aging, too: I mean, handle IS down, and we ARE all older...so there MUST be a connection there, too.  Right? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2011, 02:34:12 AM »

Again, taking the net result (diminished overall handle) to prove one specific theory (that rebates have failed to produce handle growth) is an extremely slippery slope.

No, it is not. No handle growth = no handle growth.

Even worse, handle shrinkage = shrinkage. Period. No two ways about it.

Fail.
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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2011, 03:08:12 AM »

No, it is not. No handle growth = no handle growth.

Even worse, handle shrinkage = shrinkage. Period. No two ways about it.

Fail.

So, if handle before rebates was (for example) $10 billion, with $6 billion from whales and $4 billion from the rest ...and then the next year (the first year of rebates), it looked like this:

$6.6 billion from whales (10% subset increase due to rebates) and $3 billion from the rest (25% subset decrease due to myriad other factors), for a total of $9.6 billion (4% loss overall handle)

...would it be your opinion that rebates failed to deliver the so-called "promised" handle increases, Mr. "Period - No Two Ways About It"?

(Careful! You've been playing both sides of this question so far...whether you realize it or not. Don't get run over.)
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2011, 05:27:07 PM »

You're sure carrying on quite an animated battle against an idea you claim to be obviously false. Scared, or just like to argue?

The handle facts are the facts, and no getting around it. Overall national handle, and local handle, has tanked since rebates to the special players got bigtime. That's indisputable. Coincidence? I don't think so. You do. So there's a stalemate.
 
Happy Thanksgiving, HV, to you and all the family. 
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« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2011, 09:23:47 PM »

The handle facts are the facts, and no getting around it. Overall national handle, and local handle, has tanked since rebates to the special players got bigtime. That's indisputable. Coincidence? I don't think so. You do. So there's a stalemate.

There's no stalemate here, just you suggesting an invalid postulate that is pretty plain to see by anyone who knows even the slightest about horse racing industry trends. A stalemate would be if we took opposite sides of a valid postulate, such as "overall racing handle is declining due to the weak economy, proliferation of other forms of gambling, and an increased interest in other forms of entertainment". Reasonable people would likely agree that this passes intellectual muster; THEN we could agree or disagree, split hairs, declare a stalemate, etc.

What you are suggesting is something that no industry professional would discuss with you with a straight face -- it's THAT ridiculous. Rebates killed handle? Industry professionals would chop you up in 30 seconds: all rebates are is reduced takeout for select players...and horseplayers have been crying for takeout reductions for years and years, saying "we can't continue to play without 'em". Follow the math you imply: "rebates kill handle (you say); rebates are simply reduced takeout for selected players; therefore, reduced takeout kills handle". Sorry, it just doesn't add up.

Why don't you take your premise over to the HANA forum, and see how fast you get laughed out of there?

Better yet, why not tell the truth instead: it's just that you don't like the idea that bigger bettors get rebates, and smaller players don't, so it is convenient for you to claim that rebates have caused a reduction in handle. You can't possibly believe that, though (unless you've simply lost your mind, which I doubt). You are having fun being a pain in the ass about this, something I suspected about 10 posts ago.

Happy Thanksgiving, HV, to you and all the family. 

Thank you. I hope your holiday was pleasant and safe, as was mine.
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2011, 11:28:18 AM »

There's no stalemate here, just you suggesting an invalid postulate that is pretty plain to see by anyone who knows even the slightest about horse racing industry trends.

The "trend" is obvious in the graph I presented. Overall handle is in the tank.

ADW has failed to live up to its promise. Rebating has failed to live up to its promise. They're failures.
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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2011, 11:34:07 AM »

The "trend" is obvious in the graph I presented. Overall handle is in the tank.

This is the only thing you keep repeating in this discussion that is supported by fact.

ADW has failed to live up to its promise. Rebating has failed to live up to its promise. They're failures.

You apparently have no specific data to support this. Gross handle comparisons are woefully inadequate.

Take your claims over to the HANA forum, and see what they say -- if you have the courage to do so, that is.
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2011, 11:47:03 AM »

You apparently have no specific data to support this. Gross handle comparisons are woefully inadequate.

What else matters but gross handle? That's what pay the bills and the purses. If you made a small segment of your customer base happier while managing at the same time to drive your overall handle in the toilet, that's failure.

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Take your claims over to the HANA forum, and see what they say -- if you have the courage to do so, that is.

The HANA, much like the NTRA Big Players Panel, suffers from tunnel vision, and believes that as long as they personally are happy, all will be rosy with horse racing. The claims of both parties, that if only their little group got better rebates or whatever because they're the most important, then handle would skyrocket, are shown to be false by the gross numbers. The promises of big new handle from rebated players have not come to pass, from an overall standpoint.
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »

What else matters but gross handle? That's what pay the bills and the purses. If you made a small segment of your customer base happier while managing at the same time to drive your overall handle in the toilet, that's failure.

Yes -- that WOULD be failure -- if you could prove that *direct* relationship. You haven't.

You are stubbornly maintaining that rebates have damaged handle, and 1) you have no specific data to support that claim, and 2) you are the ONLY person, ANYWHERE that I have read -- and I read damn near everything related to this industry -- that believes this.

(That is, if you truly believe it...I'm still holding on to the possibility that this whole thing is just a chain-yank by you, and you are just having a jolly ol' time dragging it out.)

The promises of big new handle from rebated players have not come to pass, from an overall standpoint.

We don't know this for sure unless we can see a breakout of year-to-year handle specific to rebated players. Nowhere did ANYONE promise rebating bigger players would overcome any and all other handle shortcomings -- that is your (erroneous) spin.

Now, if you want to insist that the Earth is flat and that rebates damage handle, you are in the right place here at BTW: there are no industry experts here with statistical proof that might prove you wrong. This is a forum of mostly casual fans and a few owners...but no industry heavyweights.

Even if the folks at HANA and the NTRA have "tunnel vision" as you claim, you know darn well you wouldn't get away with playing single-issue politics with handle numbers at those forums -- you would be laughed all the way back to the minors. I can't send you back to BTW...you're already here. Like old luggage, there simply is nowhere else for you to go.
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2011, 12:33:45 PM »

It's worth noting, Terry, that while you sometimes cross-post these sort of topics here at BTW and @derby, you have apparently decided to keep this topic "down on the farm" here at BTW. Any reason?  Roll Eyes

How very interesting!
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2011, 01:52:16 PM »

Yes -- that WOULD be failure -- if you could prove that *direct* relationship. You haven't.

The actual hard statistics are on my side. Overall handle is down. It's down much worse than the economy. On the other hand, you've provided no direct evidence at all that rebating or ADW has helped anything. You can't possibly, because the overall trend of numbers is DOWN.

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You are stubbornly maintaining that rebates have damaged handle

Rebates have not grown, or even maintained, overall handle like those clamoring for them promised. It was promised to be a growth thing. The failure is evident in the numbers, and is an indisputable fact. Rebates as a driver to higher handle is a fail. Despite your stubborn claims to the contrary, that WAS the promise, and that has turned out to be false. Maybe some guys getting rebates bet more now, or maybe their rebate shop contributes more, but others are obviously betting less.

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1) you have no specific data to support that claim

And you have none to refute it.

I do, however, have the "evidence" of former regular players, my friends and acquaintances as well as those of others, who understand quite clearly how rebates have stacked the parimutuel deck even worse against the casual non-rebated players, and who have quit or cut way back as a result. You've seen them too - there have been regular posts to that effect on the Derby List. I also have the comments by rebate whale Dana Parham at a recent Symposium that yes indeed rebates to the bigger players will bust out and drive out non-rebated players, just like this theory says. (However, he was unapologetic about that, and promised larger overall handle to make up for it.) I also have the evidence of former Hawthorne regulars who were quite unhappy when their own small rebates were taken away, and abandoned ship as a result. That's not to mention all the folks who grew distrustful of the whole system because of the very shaky rebate practices that have been exposed in the racing press.

The creation of a unlevel parimutuel playing field through rebates has chased off a lot of handle. The only real question is how much. I think it's a lot, and is reflected at least in part in the official handle figures. You obviously don't.     

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2) you are the ONLY person, ANYWHERE that I have read -- and I read damn near everything related to this industry -- that believes this.

You must read through rose-colored glasses, then.

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We don't know this for sure unless we can see a breakout of year-to-year handle specific to rebated players.

How would a breakout of year-to-year handle specific to rebated players tell us anything at all about non-rebated players who have left the game?

The behavior of individual players means nothing. What matters is the overall result, as reflected in the total handle. That's what pays the industry's bills. And that is headed disastrously into the toilet. 

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Nowhere did ANYONE promise rebating bigger players would overcome any and all other handle shortcomings -- that is your (erroneous) spin.

The spin is you claiming I said that in the first place. I did not. People DID promise, however, that rebating would grow handle. It has not. It has not even held it steady. Handle is way down. It makes the general economy look like a boom.

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Now, if you want to insist that the Earth is flat and that rebates damage handle, you are in the right place here at BTW: there are no industry experts here with statistical proof that might prove you wrong.

They might be here, but they're not involved in this discussion, that's quite obvious. You've still offered nothing in the way of actual facts.

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Even if the folks at HANA and the NTRA have "tunnel vision" as you claim, you know darn well you wouldn't get away with playing single-issue politics with handle numbers at those forums -- you would be laughed all the way back to the minors.

What is it with you? First you need Jim Dennis to argue Sheets numbers with me, and now you need some other forum to argue handle numbers with me.

I've read enough of what the guys of HANA write to know they have no real numbers, either. They don't even know the real rebate handle, or how much that segment has grown or not grown, or the total ADW handle, or revenue to the racing industry, or pretty much anything at all of a hard facts nature. Just like you, they make their case based entirely on self-interested hopes and dreams and unproved theories and supposed "common sense" to back up how they want the industry to work to benefit them personally. "Well, if you just give us a rebate and a mathematical edge in the pools, then we'll win more and bet more, and handle will be up we promise, so this is why you want to give us rebates." No mention at all of what "winning more" to them means as regards the remainder of the players in the pool, but there is only one thing it can and does mean - losing more, busting out faster, getting discouraged, and ultimately quitting. And that, IMHO, is exactly what is happening.
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2011, 01:53:36 PM »

It's worth noting, Terry, that while you sometimes cross-post these sort of topics here at BTW and @derby, you have apparently decided to keep this topic "down on the farm" here at BTW. Any reason?  Roll Eyes

How very interesting!

I get your point about the Derby List, HV.  He certainly would have a harder time making his argument there.  Unfortunately, the Derby List has been pretty dead the last month.  All Terry's old arguing partners there are somewhere else.  In all fairness, Terry has tried to seed discussions there by posting some horse news links, but there have been no takers.  This particular topic has not been on the Derby List for awhile.
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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2011, 02:06:51 PM »

I get your point about the Derby List, HV.  He certainly would have a harder time making his argument there.  
...
This particular topic has not been on the Derby List for awhile.

It's not been on the List in awhile, meaning it obviously HAS been there ... but he would have a harder time making his argument there.  screwy

Both of you gentlemen seem to suffer from selective memory loss. All this same material, and more, has been covered by me as well as others many times on the Derby List, and in much more depth. Some pros, and some cons. It's old news there. The only reason it is here on BTW this week is because HV chose to take such offense at displaying tanking handle numbers as a contrast to his statement that tracks are finally taking care of their best customers.

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Unfortunately, the Derby List has been pretty dead the last month.  All Terry's old arguing partners there are somewhere else.

The new Derby List facebook page seems to have siphoned off a good portion of the former email list traffic. Time and technology march on.
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« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2011, 02:14:26 PM »

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"overall racing handle is declining due to the weak economy, proliferation of other forms of gambling, and an increased interest in other forms of entertainment".
The above quote taken from one of HV's posts probably best describes why Terry's handle chart is on a downward spiral.  This is just my opinion, but I believe the majority of the bettors (not the whales) do not care much about rebates.  They are pleasant little perks, but are not the reason they bet.  The middle guys and we bottom feeders are going for the gold or just trying to win when we go to the window.  The main reward is the playing of the game in a successful manner that brings the people I know back each week.
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« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2011, 02:24:00 PM »

I do, however, have the "evidence" of former regular players, my friends and acquaintances as well as those of others, who understand quite clearly how rebates have stacked the parimutuel deck even worse against the casual non-rebated players, and who have quit or cut way back as a result.


The creation of a unlevel parimutuel playing field through rebates has chased off a lot of handle.

Oh, so previously successful, winning players who were making Big Bucks with their $2 bets just up and quit the game because they weren't getting rebates?

Hogwash. People who quit the game did so because they are LOSING, and the economy is SO bad that they don't have the disposable income anymore to keep coming back to the track.

(As it turns out, almost all forms of entertainment, INCLUDING MOST OF THE LOCAL CASINOS, have shown diminished income over the last few years. "It's STILL the economy,..." You know the rest.)

Rebates have become a convenient whipping boy for losers who don't have the stones to admit that they just can't play this game with any deal of success. They simply "left the game" in a phony, melodramatic huff. What, you fell for that shit? Or did you do it, too?

Give me the name of one, just ONE player who was winning (or just breaking even), but quit the game because he wasn't getting a rebate, or is just protesting them in general. (I won't wait up all night for this.)

What is it with you? First you need Jim Dennis to argue Sheets numbers with me, and now you need some other forum to argue handle numbers with me.

Nice mis-direction, cb...er, ct.

My claim that your current premise wouldn't last long enough elsewhere to let the cyber-ink dry stands.

Prove me wrong. Post your "rebates kill handle" claim at @derby and HANA. That ought to keep you busy for awhile.
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« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »

Terry, I just had an idea...since we aren't ever going to agree on this...would you agree to arbitration?

I would like to appeal to Jim Miller on this one.

I know those Hawthorne folks crunch numbers like crazy...and Jim is well-respected on this forum by all.

If HE says that they have proof that rebates are in fact damaging handle, I will accept it without fuss, and declare you the winner of this debate.

How about it?
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2011, 04:27:37 PM »


Oh, so previously successful, winning players who were making Big Bucks with their $2 bets just up and quit the game because they weren't getting rebates?

I said no such thing. However, guys did quit coming to Hawthorne when the rebates got slashed. No one likes their track to inform them they're an unwanted 2nd class citizen, or gut the rewards program they'd loved since Sportsman's. Same thing Twin Spires is going to find out.

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People who quit the game did so because they are LOSING,

That's more like it. And when rebates to the bigger players make it possible for those players to take even more money out of that 80% win pool, it makes worse losers out of the losers pool, so they bust out sooner, lose more often, lose bigger on the losing days, and eventually leave altogether. There's no two ways about it - when someone is winning more, someone else is losing more.

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and the economy is SO bad that they don't have the disposable income anymore to keep coming back to the track.

I don't suppose you have anything more than your personal opinion to back that claim up, do you. You know, like some "real" statistics or proof like you've been asking me to supply about my opinion?

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(As it turns out, almost all forms of entertainment, INCLUDING MOST OF THE LOCAL CASINOS, have shown diminished income over the last few years. "It's STILL the economy,..." You know the rest.)

But not as bad as horse racing handle.

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Rebates have become a convenient whipping boy for losers who don't have the stones to admit that they just can't play this game with any deal of success. They simply "left the game" in a phony, melodramatic huff. What, you fell for that shit? Or did you do it, too?

Rebates tilt the playing field further in favor of those who were already "good". They were betting that much because they were already winning, or nearly winning. (Here I'm leaving out the insane family money guys, and so on.) They were beating the takeout, and beating it handily. Now make an already good player a winner, or a bigger winner, by rebating him, and he might increase his action, sometimes dramatically. (This is the stated HANA theory behind why rebates "will" increase handle.) However, if you take a group of players who were already beating the 80% takeout by let's say 17%, and increase their handle maybe threefold, that means they're taking even more money out of that available 80% win pool, and making worse losers out of all the rest of the players. To some guys, that's enough to make the game too difficult expensive to continue. To others, it's merely an affront that tracks and horsemen would break with the tradition of being merely a disinterested broker of wagers and side with one group of players by paying them to take more money out of the pools. Either way, they quit.

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Give me the name of one, just ONE player who was winning (or just breaking even), but quit the game because he wasn't getting a rebate, or is just protesting them in general. (I won't wait up all night for this.)

Yet again you are arguing against something you yourself fabricated. I did not at any point say the rebates made winners quit. What I said was it reduced overall handle, handle that's contributed by winners and losers alike. Aside from those leaving on principle, rebates to the top end increased handle "winners" tend to flush out the segment at the bottom that was already losing and now is losing more and can afford it no longer, so quit. That's a loss of handle, and also a loss of "easy money", making it even harder for all players remaining.

The math of movement of money up the ladder to the big bettin' more rebated players could have the effect of making losers out of former small-time winners, though, even if his relative skills haven't changed a bit - he's now put at a disadvantage simply because "big" players are being paid by the tracks and horsemen to bet more and thus take more money out of the pools by collecting a rebate. The rebates can also make winners out of former losers, not because they are any better, but just by crossing over the line from 97% player to 102% player, and thus incenting him to increase his handle. That also contributes to additional flow of the 80% up to the top, and makes worse losers out of those at the bottom and flushes them out.

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Prove me wrong. Post your "rebates kill handle" claim at @derby and HANA. That ought to keep you busy for awhile.

It has been posted and discussed at the Derby List many times. It's where the whole theory was developed and debated and fleshed out. Even APCD Dan knows it.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2011, 04:37:11 PM »

Terry, I just had an idea...since we aren't ever going to agree on this...would you agree to arbitration?

I would like to appeal to Jim Miller on this one.

I know those Hawthorne folks crunch numbers like crazy...and Jim is well-respected on this forum by all.

If HE says that they have proof that rebates are in fact damaging handle, I will accept it without fuss, and declare you the winner of this debate.

How about it?

You're quite free to ask him, but what does he really know besides the raw numbers? Can he quantify the "why" guys and their money are staying away in droves? As we are all too aware, the handle on/at Hawthorne over the past few years looks a lot like the national handle. And do be sure to include asking him if rebating elsewhere has hurt.

Rebates do one thing and one thing only - keep a few of your big hitters from moving over to another provider or facility, or maybe attract a few from somewhere else, and my argument really isn't about one facility. It's overall. As far as actually increasing overall handle, though, like was promised, well, the numbers don't lie. Handle is down.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 04:38:50 PM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged

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