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Author Topic: TSC Elite  (Read 2716 times)
laurajean
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« on: November 01, 2011, 07:50:13 PM »

Has anyone else received an email on the revamping of the twins spires club.

My own thoughts about it would make HV blush. doh
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Chris Szulc
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »

Are we getting new benefits or is it going to be the same "reward" schedule?

And only applies to those that bet $25k per calendar year.
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abrunks2
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 08:47:44 PM »

I got a letter today regarding TSC Elite. Not many details though.

It sounds like the non-VIP TSC may be terminating in 2012. Anyone else get this feeling?
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orioles
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 10:17:35 PM »

if you don;t bet 25k a year sounds like you get nothing. elitist snobs
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 10:21:54 PM »

if you don;t bet 25k a year sounds like you get nothing. elitist snobs

That's $500 a week. Really, if that's all you wager, what do you expect, a free Cadillac?  screwy
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 10:22:19 PM »

if you don;t bet 25k a year sounds like you get nothing. elitist snobs

Any real fan is betting that much easily.
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orioles
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 10:50:27 PM »

Hey I run bets for all my bookie friends 25k is nothing. but once again the $2 bettor gets screwed
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 10:57:38 PM »

...but once again the $2 bettor gets screwed

Screwed? How?

What exactly should you get, if you contribute next to nothing to handle, purses, etc.?

A guy betting $2 a race isn't even covering his share of the infrastructure costs of running an ADW. He gets no premiums...and deserves none.
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orioles
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 11:08:35 PM »

then why do they says the $2 bettor is the backbone of racing.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 11:17:15 PM »

then why do they says the $2 bettor is the backbone of racing.


Who says this? Who are "they"?

In all seriousness, this might have been true years ago, but not anymore.

Race tracks (finally) cater to their high-end customers in some of the same ways casinos have for years. If you are betting nickel slots and $5 blackjack, guess what? The casino ain't doing much for you either.
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 11:19:24 PM »

Hey I run bets for all my bookie friends 25k is nothing. but once again the $2 bettor gets screwed

Well at least in racing the screwing will last about a minute while in slots it will be quicker
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laurajean
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 12:33:50 PM »

I wonder if they will still have the Silver and Gold cards?  What about the Gold Card room and the VIP entrance.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 01:06:56 PM »

Race tracks (finally) cater to their high-end customers in some of the same ways casinos have for years.

And with indisputably positive results:



Source: jockeyclub.com
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2011, 07:59:52 PM »

And with indisputably positive results:



Source: jockeyclub.com

Yes, I'm sure the sagging economy has *nothing* to do with the decline in handle.  Roll Eyes

Get that weak sauce out of here, will ya? Worst attempt at cause and effect I've seen in awhile.

Twin Spires is merely doing the same thing that some other tracks have wised up to: work hard to retain the most profitable customers, give the best premiums / rebates to the best customers. No different than in real life.

If you are a $2 bettor, you are not in that group. Too bad, so sad, cry to your dad.
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baking soda shakes
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 08:14:19 PM »

and next year year there will be a annual fee $29.95 to have the card,and it wont be long before they start pushing insurance coverage for lost tickets bang head
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2011, 09:41:45 PM »

Yes, I'm sure the sagging economy has *nothing* to do with the decline in handle.  Roll Eyes

Get that weak sauce out of here, will ya? Worst attempt at cause and effect I've seen in awhile.

Twin Spires is merely doing the same thing that some other tracks have wised up to: work hard to retain the most profitable customers, give the best premiums / rebates to the best customers. No different than in real life.

If you are a $2 bettor, you are not in that group. Too bad, so sad, cry to your dad.

HV, where is the love these days?  Your bitterness is dripping all over my computer.  Love thy betting brethren!  Oh, dad not alive, no place to hide, to save my pride.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2011, 09:54:32 PM »

HV, where is the love these days?  Your bitterness is dripping all over my computer.  Love thy betting brethren!  Oh, dad not alive, no place to hide, to save my pride.

Dan, sorry your dad is no longer around. I miss my mom as well.

The rest of your post, though -- LOL! Sorry for the bile stains, a little club soda ought to get those out.

I don't hate $2 bettors -- don't be silly. Most every so-called "big" bettor came from the $2 bettor ranks.

But the idea that the tracks / ADW's should do something "special" for this group? Not when a $2 bet yields a paltry 14 cents in profit.

When you lose $2 at a casino, they keep the entire $2. No wonder they can give you free drinks and even dinner once in awhile, even if you bet small!

Noodle on these for awhile and I think you'll see why the "little guy" gets next to nothing at the racetrack.

(There -- is that a little "nicer"?)




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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 12:27:44 AM »

Yes, I'm sure the sagging economy has *nothing* to do with the decline in handle.  Roll Eyes

It most surely does, to some unknown extent. However, there is apparently zero hard evidence that tracks and ADW's choosing to focus their business on "big" customers has helped build the business of racing even one little bit. I'm sure you remember all the ranting on the Derby List some years back about how making every signal available to the in-home ADW bettor would result in big dividends, too. But instead, what do we see? During the same years as widespread in-home signals and rebating of big customers has become common, overall handle has tanked. There is just no evidence at all of new clothes on either the in-home ADW or the rebate emperors. 

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Get that weak sauce out of here, will ya? Worst attempt at cause and effect I've seen in awhile.

So show us the evidence that says this/these trend(s) has generated positive results for the industry, overall.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 02:02:39 AM »

However, there is apparently zero hard evidence that tracks and ADW's choosing to focus their business on "big" customers has helped build the business of racing even one little bit.

"Build"? Who the heck in racing is building anything? The tracks that remain are in an all-out, balls to the wall battle to hold on to the business they have .

The track's choices now are to make sure they hang on to their best customers and stanch the blood loss...or not do anything and bleed out sooner.

I'm sure you remember all the ranting on the Derby List some years back about how making every signal available to the in-home ADW bettor would result in big dividends, too. But instead, what do we see? During the same years as widespread in-home signals and rebating of big customers has become common, overall handle has tanked. There is just no evidence at all of new clothes on either the in-home ADW or the rebate emperors.

Right assessment, wrong culprit.

When that debate was raging on @derby, the economy was full steam ahead. You can't possibly measure the effects of rebates et. al. on handle until you can accurately discount the effects of the prolonged economic slump we are in.

What we do know is that via player tracking cards and in-house electronic wagering, the tracks have a wealth of player betting data that they didn't have just a few short years ago, and the smart establishments (like Hawthorne and Twin Spires) have tilted their rewards programs towards their best customers...common sense alone would dictate that they do this because that is where they get the biggest bang for the buck.

Twin Spires has undoubtedly figured out that they have thousands of bottom feeder customers that bet the minimum to obtain free race replays and live video, then bet a 10 cent superfecta on each track so they can have a full set of pp's and tout selections for next to free for each racing day. They want to shake free of these customers ASAP, and I don't blame them. 
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pari mutual
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 12:02:01 PM »

As a bottom feeder, I have to object to the implication that us two dollar betters are not important. We are, and I do believe that the lack of additional "bottom feeders" is a major problem in the sport. That said, I do not believe we are entitled to anything extra. For the year, we have wagered about 2500 on line and a few bucks direct at Hawthorne. I seldom use the replay feature, but I am happy it is there. We get occasional offers from AP or Hawthorne which are nice, but are not needed to keep our interest. Those who beat heavy should get special rewards--They are a very important basis,without which all the two dollar bettors in the world would not be able to compensate for.
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 12:19:23 PM »

Joe, sorry about the "bottom feeder" tag -- that's harsh. We need a better name that is less insulting.
 
How about "small cap race investor"?
 
Re: whether small cap race investors are "important", I *did* say that racing needs them, as this is almost always where the future "mid level race investors" and "blue chip players" come from.

But I reject the egalitarianism that has been espoused here in the past ("all bettors should be treated the same"), as if the racetrack is a real life Lake Wobegon, where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average". Ain't even close.
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 02:29:00 PM »

"Build"? Who the heck in racing is building anything? The tracks that remain are in an all-out, balls to the wall battle to hold on to the business they have .

And apparently, by the numbers, whatever it is they're they're doing now is killing off parimutuel handle at a much faster rate than whatever they were or were not doing just five-six years ago. Not, coincidentally, back before everyone had all signals in home, ADW in every home, and rebates out the ying yang for the "more important" players. IMHO.

Quote
When that debate was raging on @derby, the economy was full steam ahead. You can't possibly measure the effects of rebates et. al. on handle until you can accurately discount the effects of the prolonged economic slump we are in.

And no one can accurately quantify that, making one guess or theory as good as the other. Overall national handle is down again this year another 7.5%. Is the downturn worse this year than last, or the year before? Every official economic indicator says otherwise.

http://equibase.com/news/releases/110511release.cfm

Quote
What we do know is that via player tracking cards and in-house electronic wagering, the tracks have a wealth of player betting data that they didn't have just a few short years ago, and the smart establishments (like Hawthorne and Twin Spires) have tilted their rewards programs towards their best customers...common sense alone would dictate that they do this because that is where they get the biggest bang for the buck.

And common sense would tell you that the steep overall handle decreases both these tracks have seen during that same timeframe indicate that whatever they are doing is a fail, downturn or no.
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pamwaggy
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 02:47:44 PM »

Where some California OTBs make a huge mistake is not cater to their big bettors.  We are not "big cap investors"  but go faithfully every week.  The most we bet is $10 to $15 per race.  But there are two guys who always bet between $10,000.00 to $30,000.00 per race.  They did not, of course bet all the card.  But our closest OTB is run so terribly that those two have left to bet at home.  And the punk kid who "runs" it, could care less!

Now when we (small cap investors) go to another one farther away, for some reason, we get treated like Royalty.  I mean the red carpet treatment every single time.  That keeps us going two hours away and staying the weekend.  I've talked the two big bettors into going there too. 

When you run a facility that is clean, has good food, and the employees are not only respectful but smile and say.."So nice to see you again!," you get more customers.  Easy, but as I was saying earlier, PEOPLE SHOULD DO THIER DANG JOBS!  ( I think I swore in that post, though, sorry)
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HorseVoice*
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 04:26:15 PM »

And apparently, by the numbers, whatever it is they're they're doing now is killing off parimutuel handle at a much faster rate than whatever they were or were not doing just five-six years ago.


And common sense would tell you that the steep overall handle decreases both these tracks have seen during that same timeframe indicate that whatever they are doing is a fail, downturn or no.

Do you ever read what you write? Or do you just take a position opposite mine, and hope for the best?

If I am reading your above statements correctly, it is your opinion that "whatever they [Hawthorne and TS] are doing" is killing off handle FASTER than when they weren't doing these things.

Really? Are you THAT linear?

Or have you just accused two rather well-run, respected racing businesses of deliberately doing something to harm their handle -- and yes, it would have to be considered a deliberate attempt to do so, because we both know how closely both of these businesses pay attention to their respective bottom lines; you are saying, in effect, that both of these businesses came up with something that HURTS their bottom line...and yet, they continue to do it!

Does that make any sense at all? Do you really think you are smarter than all of the collective brainpower at both Hawthorne and TwinSpires?
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honest & balanced terry
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 04:51:10 PM »



Do you ever read what you write? Or do you just take a position opposite mine, and hope for the best?

If I am reading your above statements correctly, it is your opinion that "whatever they [Hawthorne and TS] are doing" is killing off handle FASTER than when they weren't doing these things.

Yes. Hawthorne and Arlington. It's what the national numbers indicate overall, and if we took the time to analyze the Illinois numbers, I think we would see the same, if not worse. Twin Spires is obviously growing, as it sucks handle out of live tracks including its own, but it is part of overall national handle.

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Or have you just accused two rather well-run, respected racing businesses of deliberately doing something to harm their handle

Not deliberately.

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-- and yes, it would have to be considered a deliberate attempt to do so

No, it's just a mistake they made, along with the whole industry. People claimed if they only had in home wagering, they would bet a lot more. They claimed they'd bet a lot more when they got rebates. The actual numbers say the promise of both scenarios has failed to materialize from an overall standpoint and deliver the promised benefits. Handle is down, and faster than ever before, impacting both tracks and horsemen. The only benefit has been to a small group of players.
 
Quote
and yet, they continue to do it!

A bit late to back out now that they're committed. You and I both saw how Hawthorne cleared out virtually overnight when they drastically reduced the existing rewards they had been giving people for several years. Try to go back now and take anything away from the players that are left, or stuff the genie back in the bottle, and they'll clear out, too. Back to the subject of this thread, when they take away existing TSC rewards from small fry, you're going to see clearing out there, too.

The handle numbers do not lie. They are down, and down big time, nationally and in Illinois, in the same timeframe as ADW and rebates have skyrocketed. ADW and rebates have been a failure, both for growing the business like many players promised, or even for holding onto existing business.
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