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Author Topic: Teller clerks reject Gural deal  (Read 8776 times)
Total Truth
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« Reply #225 on: April 18, 2011, 01:06:34 PM »

That's your opinion, and your opinion only. It's certainly not the way they see it at all. If they weren't doing the work that adds the value to the raw materials, that capitalist would be making no money at all, except for what interest he might earn on his dough sitting in the bank.

No way that the employees are entitled to share in the profits.  They don't have to put up the risk involved to run the company, the sleepless nights, having to put up your own personal collateral to back up the business loans.  What if the company loses money one year, should the employees give some of their money back?? 

As someone who deals with unions day in and day out, I have lost most respect for the union officials who are looking out for themselves...not their members.   To the point where I overheard a union member being told he works for the union not for the company that employs him...excuse me, who signs the checks anyways.  There is a place for the unions, but their sence of entitlement has gotten way out of hand.
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Round Table
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« Reply #226 on: April 18, 2011, 01:21:54 PM »

They are. Unions aren't as relevant as much now as they once were. I don't believe employers have any less bent toward using and abusing employees every chance they get, though. Look at the God-awful hours so many corporate employees have to work these days, for instance.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the posters and readers of the forum grew up in union families. They helped make a nice middle class life for a lot of Americans, and I personally don't think it's entirely a coincidence that America grew to be the dominant world power and economy in the 20th century, the century of labor unions. More people with more money = more people buying things = more demand.

Just like anything and anyone else they can have their goods and bads. I happen to think it's wrong to see some of the posters, like Dolfan, dumping on them like they're root of all evil, nor do I think it's proper for anyone to be going on and on about another person's market worth like they're some meaningless meat they'd gladly work for $2/hr if only it wasn't for that damn union (and probably the meddling government and its minimum wage.) That's what our great-grandfathers and grandfathers fought against when they first formed the unions. Business owners/capitalists like Dolfan are entitled to say what his own employees should be making, but what mutuel tellers make in New Jersey is up to them and the people they work for. Just like every American, just like Dolfan, they're entitled to get the most they can for themselves. A union is one way of little guys standing up to the power and money that would keep them impoverished if only could. It's why guys like Dolfan hate unions (and the government)... they're a check on the "absolute power" he claims is the birthright of capitalists. Nope, sorry, "absolute power" is only the birthright of kings, and we fought a revolution to get rid of them.    

Good to see you back. Hope your business has picked up.


for the love of mike,  how can workers possibly contribute to profits ??   bang head
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« Reply #227 on: April 18, 2011, 01:33:13 PM »

No way that the employees are entitled to share in the profits.

Well, that's obviously not their opinion. This isn't a law written in stone anywhere, it's one subject for bargaining.

Quote
They don't have to put up the risk involved to run the company, the sleepless nights, having to put up your own personal collateral to back up the business loans.
 

And usually the boss or employer isn't the one risking his life operating the dangerous machinery or breathing coal dust every day, too.

Quote
What if the company loses money one year, should the employees give some of their money back??

What about if you made a large percentage of their compensation dependent on good results? Big bonuses at the end of the year if it was a good year, lump of coal if it wasn't?  I know of a mine that operates that way out west, and is hugely successful, as are its employees. Every employee has a built in incentive for improving productivity and safety and cutting costs, because he knows his yearly bonus is dependent on that company's good results. Where's the incentive for that in a job you make the same lousy $ no matter what?
 
Quote
As someone who deals with unions day in and day out, I have lost most respect for the union officials who are looking out for themselves...not their members. 

If that's the case, we can agree it's not good.

Quote
To the point where I overheard a union member being told he works for the union not for the company that employs him...excuse me, who signs the checks anyways.

Can't argue that, either.
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« Reply #228 on: April 18, 2011, 01:36:43 PM »


for the love of mike,  how can workers possibly contribute to profits ??   bang head

By doing the work that makes the product people want to buy, and hopefully doing it in a quality manner?

Hey, if they're unnecessary to the process, just back up a truckload of raw materials or parts to the door of your factory, dump it out, and let the capitalist go to town and build those widgets all by himself. Let him go out and do the marketing and sales, collect the bills, negotiate the purchasing contracts, perform the R&D, drive the trucks, whatever.
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« Reply #229 on: April 18, 2011, 01:46:39 PM »

By doing the work that makes the product people want to buy, and hopefully doing it in a quality manner?

Hey, if they're unnecessary to the process, just back up a truckload of raw materials or parts to the door of your factory, dump it out, and let the capitalist go to town and build those widgets all by himself. Let him go out and do the marketing and sales, collect the bills, negotiate the purchasing contracts, perform the R&D, drive the trucks, whatever.


terry,  it  was sarcasm


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« Reply #230 on: April 18, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »

good people

working for solid companies

making quality products


that's the union way.



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« Reply #231 on: April 18, 2011, 01:50:49 PM »

By reading both sides of this debate and participating in the discussion I can say a few things to sum up what I beleive in a nutshell.

1. ..and Terry said this...If it wasnt for greedy corporations and their greedy CEO's unions wouldnt be needed and would have never been formed.
2. I believe like welfare, the union concept started out with noble intentions but got into the wrong hands and of course, corruption ensued..

And in the middle, as always, the working class who in many cases benefit none from either entity.

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« Reply #232 on: April 18, 2011, 01:57:49 PM »


terry,  it  was sarcasm

Oh.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #233 on: April 18, 2011, 02:03:16 PM »




studies indicate    deunionization    contributes as much as 50%  of the growth in the wage gap between workers with a college education  and those with a high school education.




« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 02:34:25 PM by 7474505B » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #234 on: April 18, 2011, 02:27:11 PM »

1981 wants its complaints back. 
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samstar
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« Reply #235 on: April 18, 2011, 07:30:34 PM »

    

Good to see you back. Hope your business has picked up.
[/quote]
My car business is doing very well.  My house building business has dried up from 14 houses the last two years before Obama  to 5 last year looks like I will be building my last two this year.  Increased regulations including a requirment to install sprinkler  systems in single family houses has made it unprofitable for me to continue to build.  The shame of it is that I was the only builder in the county constucting affordable single family houses. (under $180,000). Oh well, times they are a changing. 
Read Atlas Shrugged if you haven't already.  It was on a book report list when I was in high school.
(1961) and I didn't appreciate it as much as I did when I read it earlier this year. Interesting read.
 
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« Reply #236 on: April 18, 2011, 10:00:16 PM »

Jobs don't exist without guys putting up the money and sweating out the result.
I know that concept is tough for liberal and socialist types, but that's the way it is..
And the biggest physical risk those tellers take is when they step off their stools to take a lunch break.
Unions today suck, period.
They were needed years ago, not so much now..
Hard to believe that this little shitbag union can hold up the survival of this track and the plans that have been made for the future.
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Round Table
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« Reply #237 on: April 18, 2011, 11:02:06 PM »




Unions play a pivotal role both in securing legislated labor protections and rights such as safety and health, overtime, and family/medical leave and in enforcing those rights on the job. Because unionized workers are more informed, they are more likely to benefit from social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance and workers compensation. Unions are thus an intermediary institution that provides a necessary complement to legislated benefits and protections.



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« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2011, 11:16:29 PM »

My car business is doing very well.  My house building business has dried up from 14 houses the last two years before Obama  to 5 last year looks like I will be building my last two this year.  Increased regulations including a requirment to install sprinkler  systems in single family houses has made it unprofitable for me to continue to build. 

The sprinkler rule surely isn't a Federal (Obama) rule is it?

Quote
Read Atlas Shrugged if you haven't already.  It was on a book report list when I was in high school. (1961) and I didn't appreciate it as much as I did when I read it earlier this year. Interesting read.

I went through all, and I mean all not just the big two, of Ayn Rand's material when I was younger. Back when I was voting for Nixon.  laughing guy

In fact, 5 of the slimmer volumes are still sitting right behind me on the bookshelf today, in between Freud's "The Ego and the Id", and Luther's "Three Treatises". Those were ancient times, though, well before I went to Loyola and got that "liberal" arts education ...
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Round Table
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« Reply #239 on: April 18, 2011, 11:20:54 PM »

The sprinkler rule surely isn't a Federal (Obama) rule is it?

I went through all, and I mean all not just the big two, of Ayn Rand's material when I was younger. Back when I was voting for Nixon.  laughing guy

In fact, 5 of the slimmer volumes are still sitting right behind me on the bookshelf today, in between Freud's "The Ego and the Id", and Luther's "Three Treatises". Those were ancient times, though, well before I went to Loyola and got that "liberal" arts education ...

i actually rented  the exact  same apartment  she once  lived  in , in rodgers park where she briefly  resided .  we probably  used the same toilet.
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« Reply #240 on: April 18, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »

Jobs don't exist without guys putting up the money and sweating out the result.
I know that concept is tough for liberal and socialist types, but that's the way it is..

That's great, and successful businesses (bigger than mom and pop) don't exist without good employees.

No one in this thread claims unions are "entitled" to part of the profits except the guys saying they're not entitled. It's nothing more than another facet of bargaining. There are only 10 commandments handed down from the God that I (and most of us on this forum, probably) recognize, and "Thou shalt not covet part of the company's profits" is not one of them. It's simply part of the give and take between management and labor.
 
Quote
Hard to believe that this little shitbag union can hold up the survival of this track and the plans that have been made for the future.

As others have pointed out, it's got to be a relatively small amount of money under debate, for the small number of tellers. Hard to believe Gural would risk the entire future of a sport he claims to love so much over them peanuts.
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« Reply #241 on: April 18, 2011, 11:30:17 PM »

i actually rented  the exact  same apartment  she once  lived  in , in rodgers park where she briefly  resided .  we probably  used the same toilet.

sorry to quote myself but there is more

i used to sit on the can  like  we all do  andd i'd think    "hey ayn rand  probably thought out quite a few chapters  of her works  sitting here doing the exact same thing I am."

i'm not shitting you.  true  story.
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« Reply #242 on: April 18, 2011, 11:35:21 PM »

i actually rented  the exact  same apartment  she once  lived  in , in rodgers park where she briefly  resided .  we probably  used the same toilet.

This is the single most impressive thing I think I have ever read on the BTW forum. Well, in a harness side political discussion, anyway.

You rule, 867-5309!
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« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2011, 11:40:06 PM »


As others have pointed out, it's got to be a relatively small amount of money under debate, for the small number of tellers. Hard to believe Gural would risk the entire future of a sport he claims to love so much over them peanuts.

yeh  and that's another  thing  .  has anyone  seen the specifics ?  anywhere?

for an administration  that brags about  "transparency" .

tell me \you've  seen the entire  proposall and i won't  call christie  a lying dirt bag.

my impression is  it's well  known  his admin.  is the opposite of transparent.

which  is bad  for new jersey.

let's  go    -   recall.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 11:43:58 PM by 7474505B » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #244 on: April 18, 2011, 11:57:14 PM »

let's  go    -   recall.

Few on this forum are going to support a recall of Christie. He's exactly the sort of extreme budget-cutting righty they campaigned for, voted for, and elected. If it turns out it's horse racing he wants to kill as "waste", well, it's all part of their tea party dream, and they will remain supportive.

laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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fairgame
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« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2011, 03:04:30 AM »

The sprinkler rule surely isn't a Federal (Obama) rule is it?


http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/15/avlon.kyl.truth/index.html

But the facts are inconvenient, and so they are ignored. Instead, talking points taken from talk radio are repeated until they take on a life of their own and eventually get the validation of a U.S. senator.

The news wasn't that Kyl made a mistake; it was his staff essentially acknowledging that in the current hyper-partisan environment, facts are a secondary concern, even on the floor of the U.S. Senate, even when they are paraded as statistics. The important thing is to scare the hell out of people so that they remember your political point and pass it on.

[. . . .]

In this absurd spin cycle, there's one dependable place to look for sanity: satire. And on cue came Stephen Colbert,
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« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2011, 07:51:50 AM »

That's great, and successful businesses (bigger than mom and pop) don't exist without good employees.

No one in this thread claims unions are "entitled" to part of the profits except the guys saying they're not entitled. It's nothing more than another facet of bargaining. There are only 10 commandments handed down from the God that I (and most of us on this forum, probably) recognize, and "Thou shalt not covet part of the company's profits" is not one of them. It's simply part of the give and take between management and labor.
 
As others have pointed out, it's got to be a relatively small amount of money under debate, for the small number of tellers. Hard to believe Gural would risk the entire future of a sport he claims to love so much over them peanuts.

You just don't get it, or are an idiot in the truest sense of the word.
You can take a pool of thousands of "good" workers and they will never create a business which would in turn create employment.
However, a smart businessman will ALWAYS be able to find workers to do a job, and do it well..
There are leaders and there are followers.
I can tell which one you are.
Go out and try to run something other than a candy store with lottery tickets and if you are successful, let me know how you will overpay your employees..
You aren't entitled to anything more than your paycheck if someone hired you to do a job..
If you want to share in the profits, put up the money and participate in some of the headaches..
Otherwise, STFU....
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« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2011, 08:11:39 AM »

Bottom line: there is good and bad everywhere. To paint all unions as good or bad or all management as good or bad is just silly. Gural has painted himself into a corner.  Can anyone. Really expect 100% cooperation in anything or anywhere?
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2011, 08:40:28 AM »

This is the single most impressive thing I think I have ever read on the BTW forum. Well, in a harness side political discussion, anyway.

You rule, 867-5309!

Thank you for acknowledging you add nothing to the harness side of the forum.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2011, 08:42:38 AM »

You just don't get it, or are an idiot in the truest sense of the word.
...
You aren't entitled to anything more than your paycheck if someone hired you to do a job..

You either don't get it, or are a true idiot. I already stated they aren't ENTITLED to the profits.

Quote
If you want to share in the profits, put up the money and participate in some of the headaches..
Otherwise, STFU....

People are ENTITLED to try and bargain for anything and everything ... money, safety issues, hours of work, and yes a share of the profits. They might not get it, but they are surely entitled to try.

There are no written stone tablets that spell out the compact between employer and employee. It's a deal they make between the two of them, where each one tries to get the best deal they can for themselves.

The way you guys talk, there'd be no employees anywhere getting any part of the profits anyhow, so what the hell are you going on about? Is this like sharia law in the U.S., something that doesn't really exist, but you keep bandying around like some sort of bogeyman?

Oh ... wait ... it's not. I know of some places that have employee profit sharing, and don't even have a union! Wow. Those employers must hold a different opinion of what is right than you. That tells me your position is not the one true word of God on employer-employee relationships. What it is, in fact, is what you're entitled to do with your own business, and your business only, but not what is neceassarily right and proper for the rest of the world. Merely your opinion of what is right for you.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 08:52:09 AM by honest & balanced terry » Report to moderator   Logged
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