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Author Topic: Shame on Hawthorne  (Read 2526 times)
DonPietro
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« on: February 12, 2011, 07:07:02 PM »

I am a huge supporter of Hawthorne, but they came across looking like a podunk track today, because someone was lazy and not paying attention, asleep at the switch.

From about 12:30 until 2 minutes before post time of the 2nd race, they showed that
the #5 horse in the 3rd race, Vice Lord, was scratched in their scroll at the bottom of the screen. So my buddy and I are sitting at the OTB making out our pick 4 tickets, assuming he is scratched, then trying to figure out why he was showing up in the daily double probable pools. We go to punch in our pick 4 tickets a minute before race 2, and there is Vice Lord available to use in the 3rd race. About 30 seconds later he shows up as a scratch in the tote machine. Now since the favorite won the 3rd, anybody that used Vice Lord won that leg, but Hawthorne should be ashamed for allowing this to happen, and we bettors deserve an apology and an explanation. This could have caused a HUGE uproar if the chalk didn't win the 3rd race.

Jim Miller? Mutuels? Buehler? Anybody?
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DonPietro
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 07:14:20 AM »

So let me get this straight, since I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. This thread as of this morning has been seen 127 times, and none of the braintrust from Hawthorne has an explanation for this fiasco yet? Or are there fingers being pointed, and everybody's getting their story straight first? Until the horseplayers of Illinois are given some reason for this sham, this thread will be bumped up every day until someone has the real story. Or maybe this topic wasn't important enough with the awards dinner going on last night? Hmmmm.... let's see if it's on their 'to do list" on a lazy sunday with no racing at the Thorne. Something stinks in Stickney.   cheese
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 10:35:57 AM »

Not that it would make you feel any better, Don P., but it isn't the first time it has happened at Haw. Similar thing for me last Spring.

Now, that said, it is not the first time I have encountered it at a racetrack, either. I've run into it a number of times over the years at various tracks. Horse they said was scratched isn't, or horse no one ever said a thing about unbettable. The worst, actually, is the combination of the two - when you find a horse they say is scratched still open, and some other "unscratched" horse you were going to bet is off the menu. And yes, sometimes it doesn't get straightened out until just before race time.
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servicetech
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 10:36:29 AM »

yep it,s bullshit the way they can,t give proper info,,,,But don,t worry as soon as Horse voice reads your complaint,he will respond as if he is a valued Hawthorne employee,,,, laughing guy
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alydar66
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 11:33:04 AM »

This ended up costing me money.  If Vice Lord is not scratched he is a must use in the pk-3s and pk-4s. 2 minutes to post he was still live. I had to throw him in just in case he actually wasnt scratched.  That made my ticket more expensive and i missed the pk-4.  It also made the pk-3 and pk-4 payoffs lower for those who cashed those tickets because the favorite won the race.
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Jim Miller
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 12:31:25 PM »

Don Pietro, servicetech and others,

My apologies for working a 15 hour day yesterday and not answering your post more quickly. While we are focusing on the raceday and did have an awards dinner, it took me a bit to get to this website.

Here's exactly what happened yesterday and there was a communications breakdown, plus correction that occurred in regards to Vice Lord. Vice Lord was not a part of the days early scratches, in fact the scratch of Vice Lord came in right around 12:30. The communications of the scratch would take place between the stewards, jockeys room, television department and mutuels.  Apparently the call to mutuels didn't occur.

Prior to the 2nd race on the card (Vice Lord was in the 3rd) our mutuels staff noticed the scratch was missing in the tote system and contacted the stewards to confirm, which was then confirmed at this time and Vice Lord was taken out of the tote system prior to race 2.

As the rules state, refunds on Vice Lord were issued for those who bet the horse straight or used it in race three gimmicks.  For Pick wagers, the favorite of the third race won, thus any player using Vice Lord on a pick ticket had a winner.

Mistakes happen in this game, but they happen all over the country as well.  That is what occurred, a lack of communication between the stewards and mutuels, but at the same time, it was corrected prior to the second race and more than 30 minutes before the third race was run.  There is no sham or fiasco, there is nothing to hide. It was a mistake, we all make them every day I believe and we correct them when we can. Because the horse was a late scratch, there were going to be refunds in regards to Vice Lord for race three wagers. For all Pick wagers, we followed the Illinois Racing Board rules in regards to how the race was handled for payout.

Again, communication issues sometimes occur, mistakes happen. All we can do is learn from this and improve.  It is day two of a meet after six weeks off, things like this can happen sometimes and we just have to make sure our lines off communication are better.

Again, I am not always able to check this website multiple times daily as I do have quite a few things to keep track of along with a family that I want to spend time with. I will be as accessable to this website and others as I can. If anyone ever has a question, you can email me personally at Jim@hawthorneracecourse.com
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 12:32:06 PM »

If you want a true adventure in Pick 3 and Pick 4 wagering, try the last day of any Hawthorne meet, when many of the jocks traditionally bail off some or all their mounts at staggered intervals throughout the card, and Peter is laboring to keep up with all the announcements. Talk about never knowing what horse is open or closed for betting, and ending up with a bunch of wagers you never made as well as depressed payoffs when you do win. May as well go up and hit the quick pick button. Hey - at least you're 50/50 likely to end up with the off time favorite.
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 02:33:22 PM »

yep it,s bullshit the way they can,t give proper info,,,,But don,t worry as soon as Horse voice reads your complaint,he will respond as if he is a valued Hawthorne employee,,,, laughing guy

Try using the apostrophe instead of the comma.  Examples:  it's  can't  don't.  That punctuation mark is located next to the Enter key on most keyboards.  Also, you may want to use periods instead of commas to connect run-on sentences.  Examples:  info . . . But    employee . . . (rofl).  On this last example, parentheses are better than brackets.  The parentheses are the shift of the 9 and 0, like ().  If you use a comma, place a space after it.  Example:  complaint, he.

Just trying to be helpful!  When you want to argue with the big boys like HV, you must put your best grammatical foot forward.  Image is everything, you know!
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servicetech
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 03:22:43 PM »

Try using the apostrophe instead of the comma.  Examples:  it's  can't  don't.  That punctuation mark is located next to the Enter key on most keyboards.  Also, you may want to use periods instead of commas to connect run-on sentences.  Examples:  info . . . But    employee . . . (rofl).  On this last example, parentheses are better than brackets.  The parentheses are the shift of the 9 and 0, like ().  If you use a comma, place a space after it.  Example:  complaint, he.

Just trying to be helpful!  When you want to argue with the big boys like HV, you must put your best grammatical foot forward.  Image is everything, you know!
who said argue,it,s a opinion,and yes you can be my spelling teacher,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ok grade it fool screwy screwy
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Thomas Graham
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 03:36:36 PM »

Thank you Jim Miller for the explanation.  Don Pietro, I guess the next time you have a question for Hawthorne management, you can e-mail Mr. Miller directly as shocking as it may sound, doesn't live to check Barn to Wire 24/7. Oh the humanity.  Me thinks you owe the man an apology.
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alydar66
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 04:25:11 PM »

Thank you Jim Miller for the explanation.  Don Pietro, I guess the next time you have a question for Hawthorne management, you can e-mail Mr. Miller directly as shocking as it may sound, doesn't live to check Barn to Wire 24/7. Oh the humanity.  Me thinks you owe the man an apology.
An apology? For what?
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mottoman
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 05:06:46 PM »

Yeah big deal!
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DonPietro
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 05:18:32 PM »

Thank you Jim Miller for the explanation.  Don Pietro, I guess the next time you have a question for Hawthorne management, you can e-mail Mr. Miller directly as shocking as it may sound, doesn't live to check Barn to Wire 24/7. Oh the humanity.  Me thinks you owe the man an apology.

You're kidding, right? Go hang out with journalstuff, maybe he can teach you something.
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DonPietro
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 05:34:07 PM »

Don Pietro, servicetech and others,

My apologies for working a 15 hour day yesterday and not answering your post more quickly. While we are focusing on the raceday and did have an awards dinner, it took me a bit to get to this website.

Here's exactly what happened yesterday and there was a communications breakdown, plus correction that occurred in regards to Vice Lord. Vice Lord was not a part of the days early scratches, in fact the scratch of Vice Lord came in right around 12:30. The communications of the scratch would take place between the stewards, jockeys room, television department and mutuels.  Apparently the call to mutuels didn't occur.

Prior to the 2nd race on the card (Vice Lord was in the 3rd) our mutuels staff noticed the scratch was missing in the tote system and contacted the stewards to confirm, which was then confirmed at this time and Vice Lord was taken out of the tote system prior to race 2.

As the rules state, refunds on Vice Lord were issued for those who bet the horse straight or used it in race three gimmicks.  For Pick wagers, the favorite of the third race won, thus any player using Vice Lord on a pick ticket had a winner.

Mistakes happen in this game, but they happen all over the country as well.  That is what occurred, a lack of communication between the stewards and mutuels, but at the same time, it was corrected prior to the second race and more than 30 minutes before the third race was run.  There is no sham or fiasco, there is nothing to hide. It was a mistake, we all make them every day I believe and we correct them when we can. Because the horse was a late scratch, there were going to be refunds in regards to Vice Lord for race three wagers. For all Pick wagers, we followed the Illinois Racing Board rules in regards to how the race was handled for payout.

Again, communication issues sometimes occur, mistakes happen. All we can do is learn from this and improve.  It is day two of a meet after six weeks off, things like this can happen sometimes and we just have to make sure our lines off communication are better.

Again, I am not always able to check this website multiple times daily as I do have quite a few things to keep track of along with a family that I want to spend time with. I will be as accessable to this website and others as I can. If anyone ever has a question, you can email me personally at Jim@hawthorneracecourse.com

Thanks for the reply and somewhat of an answer Jim, and no, we don't expect you to have an eye on this website 24/7. But when a major slip up like this occurs, it would be nice for the track to put out a reason for the snafu, instead of waiting for the players to react. The excuse of a communication error because you're running a 2 day meet is a little odd. Does that mean things will run smoother communication wise when you're running 4 days a week? Also, you keep saying that the error was corrected before Race 2, while leaving out the main problem. It was corrected LESS than 2 minutes before the race went off, as I have one pick 4 ticket with the 5 on it, and the other with him scratched. Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good excuse, shall we? I'm still a big fan, but the communication mistake wasn't between mutuals and the stewards. It was between Hawthorne and the betting public.
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 05:55:36 PM »

who said argue,it,s a opinion,and yes you can be my spelling teacher,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ok grade it fool screwy screwy

Oddly enough, your spelling is OK.  Just commenting on your typing, grammatical skills.  I will be gracious and give you a passing mark of D- this time.

Oh, negative opinion usually leads to arguing or debates.  Since we have some superb debaters on this forum that you may attract, I am just giving you a leg up. Always helpful!
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 06:05:09 PM »

I think Jim could work 16 hours a day and handle the graphics too.  Let's see, he could do the graphics, then the prerace report, and finally the postrace interview.  Hey, I know he can call races, let's add that between the prerace report and the postrace interview.  Pretty soon, he will be as short as me after he runs his legs off.

We get a good race track exec and we try to kill him off.  Hang in there, Jim!
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Thomas Graham
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2011, 06:32:25 PM »

Don -

There was a problem that as Jim said was a communication error between departments and it was corrected - albeit well after it should have been caught.  What is Hawthorne supposed to do?  Put out a press release?  You asked a question on an internet forum and received an answer.

If you had asked Jim voa his e-mail, I'm guessing you would have gotten an answer quicker.  That was my point.  I don't know what you wanted Hawthorne to do, take out an ad that said "we made a mistake?"

I think it's great that Jim comes on here and responds to all queries - and my guess is he would answer you if you had been at the track Saturday.

Tom
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DonPietro
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2011, 06:47:53 PM »

Don -

There was a problem that as Jim said was a communication error between departments and it was corrected - albeit well after it should have been caught.  What is Hawthorne supposed to do?  Put out a press release?  You asked a question on an internet forum and received an answer.

If you had asked Jim voa his e-mail, I'm guessing you would have gotten an answer quicker.  That was my point.  I don't know what you wanted Hawthorne to do, take out an ad that said "we made a mistake?"

I think it's great that Jim comes on here and responds to all queries - and my guess is he would answer you if you had been at the track Saturday.

Tom

That's fine, and I appreciate that he does come out here as quick as he did. I just didn't like the way he made it seemed like the problem was corrected long before race 2 went off, which is not the case. It was almost post time as I stated, which he clearly left out of his explanation. A press release? No, but an announcement after the race to explain what happened wouldn't have been out of line. New York does it all the time with horses that get scratched and run for purse money only. Let me ask you, do you think Hawthorne would have mentioned it today if I didn't bring it up? No, of course not. It would have been swept under the rug without a care. Maybe this forum will prevent it from happening again in the near future, the "miscommunication", or whatever the reason is he gave. And to expect me to apologize, for what, their screw up?
Please, the industry wishes they had a million players like me, and if they can't take a little constructive criticism or complaint, then they are in the wrong business.. By the way, looking at the number of hits on this topic, I guess I'm not the only one that finds this topic fascinating, huh? 400 in 24 hours? Gee, I must have hit a sore spot.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2011, 07:03:22 PM »

By the way, looking at the number of hits on this topic, I guess I'm not the only one that finds this topic fascinating, huh? 400 in 24 hours? Gee, I must have hit a sore spot.

No Zenyatta war and multiple Zenyatta threads to soak up the idle browsers.  Grin
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2011, 07:21:48 PM »

That's fine, and I appreciate that he does come out here as quick as he did. I just didn't like the way he made it seemed like the problem was corrected long before race 2 went off, which is not the case. It was almost post time as I stated, which he clearly left out of his explanation. A press release? No, but an announcement after the race to explain what happened wouldn't have been out of line.

I would think an announcement as soon as it was discovered, as well as a new graphic ASAP, would be more helpful and more than adequate.
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2011, 10:16:23 PM »

Please, the industry wishes they had a million players like me, and if they can't take a little constructive criticism or complaint, then they are in the wrong business.. By the way, looking at the number of hits on this topic, I guess I'm not the only one that finds this topic fascinating, huh? 400 in 24 hours? Gee, I must have hit a sore spot.

The tracks take constructive criticism and complaints well, they ignore them.  We are lucky to have someone who takes his job seriously and tries to help.  I respect that, it is so rare in this business.
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pamwaggy
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« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2011, 10:35:50 PM »

Oddly enough, your spelling is OK.  Just commenting on your typing, grammatical skills.  I will be gracious and give you a passing mark of D- this time.

Oh, negative opinion usually leads to arguing or debates.  Since we have some superb debaters on this forum that you may attract, I am just giving you a leg up. Always helpful!

You sure do take the high road Dan.  Good for you!
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 09:08:47 AM »

Come to think of it you're right, Don P. - an announcement AFTER the race (too), for the benefit of those holding tickets they thought were losers but were actually refunds.

Were there any special announcements before or after race 2?
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DonPietro
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 09:23:17 AM »

Come to think of it you're right, Don P. - an announcement AFTER the race (too), for the benefit of those holding tickets they thought were losers but were actually refunds.

Were there any special announcements before or after race 2?

No announcements before or after, it just quietly went away, leaving bettors totally in the dark. Hawthorne can thank their lucky stars that the chalk won the race, saving the bettors who used the scratched horse in pk 3 and pk4's. But if the chalk had lost, I've got a feeling I wouldn't be the only one who would have had an issue with what happened. Let's just hope the "miscommunication" doesn't happen again, and if it does, a simple announcement WHEN it is discovered would be proper. NOT when the players have to bring it up on a public forum. Nuff said.
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Matchtown
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 07:49:58 PM »

 me was wondering did you say your sorry to the big lefty?HuhHuh
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:55:35 PM by Matchtown » Report to moderator   Logged
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