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Author Topic: Whats the Ihha's move now????  (Read 3699 times)
supernaut
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« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2010, 03:17:20 PM »

Greed is the downfall of complete empires.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2010, 03:53:01 PM »

"marginally profitable" is all in the eye of the beholder....what number did they give?1 mil? 5 mil? They didnt give a number did they?

As I recall, they (or someone) did, and it was under $10 mil. Might have been something the Col. said.

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Because then they tip their hands....

Tip it to what? That a very expensive business property owned by a corporation that's beholden to shareholders made a lousy $5-8 mil for an entire year's work, basically the same number they get in recapture?

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I know for a fact the the QCD entity INCLUDING their own OTB's the last year they were open made an 800K profit....not enough for Dick D to care.

Well, heck, $800k profit showing simuls. Open that puppy up and run an expensive live meet and pay purses and incur all the labor costs and so on a live meet entails. You could pay a good 2-4 night's worth of harness purses after expenses with that kind of loot.

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Fairmount is a great example of greed. Brian Zander has no reason on this Earth not to run both breeds

You mean, except that no one was betting on Fairmount's harness racing, the same as they don't bet on Prairie Meadows' harness racing, or Lebanon's racing, or Thunder Ridge, making these meets losers.

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Terry, if it were as easy as just building a track and running it, it would happen.

Right, and IF there really were monster profits in the business somewhere, the Rosecroft horsemen would have been in the clover, or the Big M would not be about to flame out, or any number of tracks somewhere or else would be doing quite well without slots.

I don't really expect the horsemen to build their own track. It was just a challenge to think critically about this claim that there's all sorts of profits and the Johnstons are nothing but greedy to ask for more of the money that's theirs by law. If there's so much money in it, why don't horsemen own their own tracks? Any smart horseman with money, or for that matter anyone else, just isn't going to build or even buy a racetrack in this day and age unless slots are involved, and for one good reason: The profits, if any, are miniscule. Why do you think there were so few new tracks built before slots came along? Pennsylvania, for instance, had track licenses just sitting there unclaimed and doing nothing for many years.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2010, 04:22:25 PM »

THERE ARE MONSTER PROFITS IN THE BUSINESS......It's all in the percentages...and how much of this and that they get. I'm sorry you dont get it....I said QCD in their FINAL YEAR OF LIVE RACING made 800K counting OTB revenues due them and they still shut it down. Terry, you're just not getting the jist of this subject. Sorry. head shake
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fullswedge
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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2010, 04:40:37 PM »

To ask for the money that is theirs by law? Yeah the law that they  paid off everyone to get. You act like it was a fair law that didn't have major influence by who else- THE OWNERS OF THE TRACKS. Illinois crooked politics at its finest.
Rosecroft is far from an equal comparison of markets. You definitely don't get it.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2010, 05:16:13 PM »

THERE ARE MONSTER PROFITS IN THE BUSINESS......It's all in the percentages...and how much of this and that they get. I'm sorry you dont get it....I said QCD in their FINAL YEAR OF LIVE RACING made 800K counting OTB revenues due them and they still shut it down. Terry, you're just not getting the jist of this subject. Sorry. head shake

So if there are monster profits, why aren't more new tracks being opened just as tracks? I'd say it's you who just doesn't get it.

$800k some monster profit, any way you look at it?  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2010, 05:29:23 PM »

To ask for the money that is theirs by law? Yeah the law that they  paid off everyone to get. You act like it was a fair law that didn't have major influence by who else- THE OWNERS OF THE TRACKS. Illinois crooked politics at its finest.

Doesn't matter, it's the law, and the money is theirs by law, just like the same law gave part of what used to be track money to the horsemen.

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Rosecroft is far from an equal comparison of markets.

What does that even mean, and so what? If there's big profits in running a racetrack, they should have been rolling in the dough. They weren't, because people just don't bet that much money on harness racing anymore, and that's the heart of the matter. There's been enough discussions on this forum about handle at various tracks recently for anyone to see that.  

Maryland racing in general is about as good a comparison to Illinois as you can get. The problems and challenges their horsemen and tracks face are very similar to ours.

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You definitely don't get it.

You keep saying this as though simple repetition makes it true. Why don't you supply some actual facts and figures to back up your claims. What are the profits at Balmoral and Maywood? What kind of money does Hawthorne make? What is the profit picture at Fairmount? How about for the State Fair racing, or Du Quoin? Why did Du Quoin have to dump the big Trot race if all that money is rolling in?  
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kingofpain
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« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2010, 06:21:05 PM »

Doesn't matter, it's the law, and the money is theirs by law, just like the same law gave part of what used to be track money to the horsemen.  It is the law that says we are suppose to get 3% from the riverboats but so far NOTHING! But its THE LAW!

What does that even mean, and so what? If there's big profits in running a racetrack, they should have been rolling in the dough. They weren't, because people just don't bet that much money on harness racing anymore, and that's the heart of the matter. There's been enough discussions on this forum about handle at various tracks recently for anyone to see that.  
In Illinois track Mgmt does not PROMOTE Harness Racing! Part of the reason is Purse Recapture! If People do not bet the live product the Purse Recapture goes up.
Maryland racing in general is about as good a comparison to Illinois as you can get. The problems and challenges their horsemen and tracks face are very similar to ours.

You keep saying this as though simple repetition makes it true. Why don't you supply some actual facts and figures to back up your claims. What are the profits at Balmoral and Maywood? What kind of money does Hawthorne make? What is the profit picture at Fairmount? How about for the State Fair racing, or Du Quoin? Why did Du Quoin have to dump the big Trot race if all that money is rolling in?  
If you own a business and it keeps losing money you sell it!
The Law says that the Riverboats are suppose to give us 3% of their profits so far we have gotten NOTHING!  But its the LAW!
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« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2010, 06:53:38 PM »

If you own a business and it keeps losing money you sell it!

By that logic the horsemen complaining how they're all losing money and going broke wouldn't stay in business, but would sell and get out. Isn't "horses" and purses their business? What are they waiting for? What? Same thing the track owners are waiting for? Big chunk of free money from slots or boats or whatever?

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The Law says that the Riverboats are suppose to give us 3% of their profits so far we have gotten NOTHING!  But its the LAW!

Maybe the horsemen should file a lawsuit against recapture to tie it up in court, like the boats did with the 3%.
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fullswedge
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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2010, 07:32:11 PM »

Yeah, I'm waiting for a big chunk of free money. More like fighting for fair purse money. its not a matter up getting out of the business, just racing in other states with an honest playing field.  Your probably posting from china getting some product made paying 50 cents a day in wages. Business is business and its legal so therefore its o.k.  Remember this is barn to wire. It is rather amusing getting an opinion from a source that knows absolutely nothing about the industry. Just a "glass is half empty" opinion on every subject.
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kingofpain
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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2010, 07:43:56 PM »

You just like to play devils advocate even though you know nothing about harness racing or trying to deal  fairly with Harness track Mgmt. The 3% is the law! The casino lawyers are doing everything to continue to collect a check from the riverboats! As people have seen alot of horsemen have left! The horsemen who have stayed are hoping for a miracle! The pcts for every dollar bet totally favor the Tracks. The old recapture law based on 1994 figures gives the tracks our money! When the tracks  try to scam people and get caught we pay for it! Like J, Johnston trying to file bankruptcy and getting caught by Dickie D so they had to make a deal with him in order to keep their OTB's! We all know that if we do get some money from some where so we have a better chance of making money, track mgmt will try and screw us! That is the way it has always been the only difference is before there was enough money to keep everyone happy, now there isn't!
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« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2010, 10:44:44 PM »

Yeah, I'm waiting for a big chunk of free money. More like fighting for fair purse money.

"Fair" purse money in Illinois is a matter of law. It's a percentage of wagers, minus various things including recapture, plus whatever the horsemen stake, and that's purses.

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Remember this is barn to wire. It is rather amusing getting an opinion from a source that knows absolutely nothing about the industry. Just a "glass is half empty" opinion on every subject.

Says the poster who has zero knowledge of what recapture really is or why it's there, and can't provide the figures on the huge track profits. Yes, you are amusing.
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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2010, 10:55:55 PM »

You just like to play devils advocate even though you know nothing about harness racing or trying to deal  fairly with Harness track Mgmt.

I do, however, know the Illinois racing law about recapture.

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The 3% is the law!

Yes, it is. And it is tied up in court. The recapture law is not tied up in court. That is why one is not enforced, while the other one is. Well, actually the 3% law is being enforced, as the boats are paying the money. It's just not being released.

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The horsemen who have stayed are hoping for a miracle! The pcts for every dollar bet totally favor the Tracks.

That's not the case. The percentages for simulcast wagers are 50-50 (as are most wagers on-track). That's the root cause of the matter that led to recapture.

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The old recapture law based on 1994 figures gives the tracks our money!

It does. The 1994 law also gave horsemen a percentage of wagers that used to go to the tracks. That's supposedly the tradeoff. Maybe the harness horsemen should try to negotiate a contract where all wagering percentages at Balmoral and Maywood facilities go back to what they were before the 1994 law and recapture was totally waived.

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When the tracks  try to scam people and get caught we pay for it! Like J, Johnston trying to file bankruptcy and getting caught by Dickie D so they had to make a deal with him in order to keep their OTB's!

Not familiar with these events. Could you fill in the details?

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We all know that if we do get some money from some where so we have a better chance of making money, track mgmt will try and screw us! That is the way it has always been the only difference is before there was enough money to keep everyone happy, now there isn't!

That's pretty much the root cause. Gambling on racing, of all kinds, just isn't as popular as it used to be, and there's no longer enough money to support everything that grew up when there was more money. Something has to shrink.
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supernaut
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« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2010, 10:56:55 PM »



Maybe the horsemen should file a lawsuit against recapture to tie it up in court, like the boats did with the 3%.

The horsemen SUPPORTED it. Just ask Jim Reynolds.
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« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2010, 11:00:09 PM »

The horsemen SUPPORTED it. Just ask Jim Reynolds.

I'm not familiar with the harness side, but our thoroughbred horsemen, while leery, did indeed support it. It's how bad they wanted full card simulcasting. I can still remember to this day the arguments our ITHA representatives made defending it (while claiming they were sure it was never going to come into effect).
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supernaut
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« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2010, 01:43:15 AM »

Our "esteemed" leaders did basically the same, telling us how much we would be going for and how great it was for us. I, along with a few others, tried to explain to people that this would NOT help us but kill us. If a guy brings $100 to the track he HAD to wager ALL of his money on Balmoral races. With full card simulcasting, he doesn't HAVE to bet ANY on the races from Balmoral. No real help to the purse account.Here's where the thinking is completely out of whack. They tried to tell us that those people would bring MORE money and still bet the Balmoral races as well as any other tracks. I yelled that people can only come with so much. Then they tried to give us the bull that we have have TONS more people and the place would be packed with people betting the other tracks. I said there are only so many bettors and without taking care of the ones we had, NO new ones would be there.  A lot of the horsemen yelled at me and told me I was crazy and this was the BEST thing to happen to the horsemen. STILL feel that way?
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« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2010, 04:31:22 AM »

Terry, just as a point of order, and I welcome your participation on this side, but we HATE the word "run". Our horses "race", we hope they don't "run". If I  had one in Saturday night and thought it would "run" I would scratch Grin
Good point.  Be sure to send it on to the Maywood announcer who, from time to time when a horse leaves well, says "So and So off to a running start"
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« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2010, 07:20:26 AM »

Good point.  Be sure to send it on to the Maywood announcer who, from time to time when a horse leaves well, says "So and So off to a running start"

I don't have to worry about this.  Most of the horses I bet on are only walking.
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« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2010, 08:24:37 AM »

Thoroughbred horsemen. Now i have your opinions figured out. This is the harness side, you must be clicking the wrong category. Harness people seem to be more passionate about getting screwed because of the process. I have trained a couple thoroughbreds and it was more like being a barn manager. Big money owners(looking for good tax breaks), a nice set of sunday clothes and an exercise boy and your a trainer. In harness most of us breed, break, shoeing, training, maintenance and hand the lines over to a driver for the only 5 minutes the horse is not 100 % in our care. It is an addictive hobby that usually travels through generations along with your horse stock. So most of us our trying to feed ourselves and our horses instead of sending a summary of losses to some fat cat owner. Purse money is everything and if the track isn't making any money on the product than put a for sale sign up. This establishment was built on the product(horse racing). If a manufacturer doesn't like his profit margin he will push on raw material suppliers and the supplier may give but can only go so far until it doesn't make sense. there is a threshold is all business. strengthen your business in every capacity when profits are less than before. I see why we do not get along, its like a production supervisor arguing with a CFO. Spreed sheets and financial data is not relevant when the tracks are run like Enron. 
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« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2010, 12:53:24 PM »

Thoroughbred horsemen. Now i have your opinions figured out. This is the harness side, you must be clicking the wrong category.

No, I'm not. Illinois racing issues get discussed here, and I want to read about/participate in those.

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Harness people seem to be more passionate about getting screwed because of the process. I have trained a couple thoroughbreds and it was more like being a barn manager. Big money owners(looking for good tax breaks), a nice set of sunday clothes and an exercise boy and your a trainer. In harness most of us breed, break, shoeing, training, maintenance and hand the lines over to a driver for the only 5 minutes the horse is not 100 % in our care. It is an addictive hobby that usually travels through generations along with your horse stock. So most of us our trying to feed ourselves and our horses instead of sending a summary of losses to some fat cat owner.

Of no consequence at all to the question of whether or not the track is really making $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ like people claim.
 
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Purse money is everything and if the track isn't making any money on the product than put a for sale sign up.

Our tracks are holding out for a bonanza.

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This establishment was built on the product(horse racing). If a manufacturer doesn't like his profit margin he will push on raw material suppliers and the supplier may give but can only go so far until it doesn't make sense. there is a threshold is all business. strengthen your business in every capacity when profits are less than before.

That applies to horsemen, too. What do you do on a daily basis to strengthen the business of harness racing and make it more appealing to the general public as a wagering option? Helping to clean up the bad elements to instill more trust? Helping to do something about the image of horses as throwaway commodities? Other?

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I see why we do not get along, its like a production supervisor arguing with a CFO. Spreed sheets and financial data is not relevant when the tracks are run like Enron.

The tracks are run like Enron? You think they're cooking the books? What's the proof of that? The IRB audits all the mutuels, to ensure that everyone is getting their fair share.

And, financial data is entirely relevant to the discussion. It's what it's all about. You claim the tracks are making some huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ so that they can easily give up the recapture. I say all the evidence from everywhere points to the fact that tracks solely dependent on wagering are NOT making huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. So, let's see the financials that back up your original claims. Show us the profits for the Illinois tracks, and, while you're at it, what a reasonable profit might be to ensure those business owners can continue to invest back into their properties. Just screaming out "they're making lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, they're greedy!" hardly helps to understand the situation.

According to the story kingofpain posted, it's a dollar difference of $900,000 overall. ~$300/race gross, before various hands dip in and take a chunk before it ever gets paid out in a race. Based on where harness purses are now, it does seem like a lot.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »

This is where you miss our points....management, OWNS (in IL) the tracks, the signal, the satelite company, the OTB parlors, the printing company (programs) not to mention the ghost payrolls we all know goes on in such a deal....plus the skim, plus thebreakages,(as supernaut already mentioned) plus 2.5% on all winning bets on other signals....anything else I missed? The books can say whatever they want them to. Money goes from one pocket to another screwing ultimately everyone. Does this help?
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« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2010, 02:59:37 PM »

This is where you miss our points....management, OWNS (in IL) the tracks, the signal, the satelite company, the OTB parlors, the printing company (programs) not to mention the ghost payrolls we all know goes on in such a deal....plus the skim, plus thebreakages,(as supernaut already mentioned) plus 2.5% on all winning bets on other signals....anything else I missed? The books can say whatever they want them to. Money goes from one pocket to another screwing ultimately everyone. Does this help?

And it sounds like horsemen can say whatever they want, too.

The revenue from wagering, including all the breakage and so on, is documented by the IRB. You can ask the IRB exactly what the tracks took in, versus the horsemen, and then go from there.That is all the horseman are entitled to. Programs, concessions, etc., not your business.

But let me ask you something here, since apparently that one QCD number is the only one you agree is solid. You said Quad Cities made an $800,000 profit in its last year of live racing (early-mid-90's ?), and that was back before full-card simulcasting, when live racing in Illinois and the wagering on Illinois racing was far healthier than it is now. Do you really feel like that $800k was a big obscene $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ profit then, and how much profit do you think a business needs if it is going to do things like reinvest it into facilities and so on to keep them up and maybe even improve the business? And, how much profit do you think that facility would be making now, if it was only $800k back in the day? Do you think the profits at the other tracks might also have fallen off similarly to what one might expect at QCD?
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2010, 05:37:24 PM »

Again you missed my point....no, that is not a big profit.....BUT it WAS a PROFIT....and they still closed it. That's the point I was trying to make. Anyway, what I would consider a big profit is a non starter.....It was mentioned that Arlington only makes 10 mil a year...ONLY....well, how much do they have to make? In a world with all it's problems.....doesn't sound like a bad business to me, a 10 mil profit in what? 5 months?
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2010, 06:29:50 PM »

Again you missed my point....no, that is not a big profit.....BUT it WAS a PROFIT....and they still closed it. That's the point I was trying to make.

To put up with the Illinois horse racing scene, politics, and horsemen  an entire year for a lousy $800k, with all prospects pointing toward even that number tanking fast ... say all you want about Mr. D but there are lot of others who would say the hell with it, too.

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Anyway, what I would consider a big profit is a non starter.....It was mentioned that Arlington only makes 10 mil a year

It was mentioned it made less than that.

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...ONLY....well, how much do they have to make?

You tell me. You guys are the experts on racetrack finance. That new polytrack they put in a few years ago cost $10 mil by itself. They've been replacing buildings on the backside. They built a nice new simulcast area/bar to better serve patrons. They brought in new tote equipment. They have to fix/repair/maintain their plant and equipment and OTB's every year. "Profit" has to pay for all that. So, go ahead, how much does it cost to keep a racetrack pleasant for customers and up-to-date technologically, and keep your shareholders happy, too?
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fullswedge
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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2010, 07:35:06 PM »

whatever. they added some new hoses in the maywood wash stalls in the last 10 years. The company i work for usually invest money back in the company or new equipment because the financial advisor said spend some money or the tax man is going to take it. the track runs the place into the ground on purpose to help sell their poverty plee. If your so confident then there should be a for sale sign going up real soon. Hmmmmmmmm i wonder why that hasn't happend yet. Businesses losing money are up for sale, I'll keep checking the classifieds to see when the place hits the market.
I remember when Arlington was an expert on race track finance. Remember the place was a dump and they lit it on fire now it is a beautiful facility. Brilliant
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