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Author Topic: Why should Harness Racing be supported  (Read 2371 times)
Homeboyhanover
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 04:24:50 PM »

I am on board with Mel and Wilderness. To a great extent anyway. My challenge is this: OTB and now internet wagering on racing has formed it's own culture over the years. To say one will now become another is not convincing to me.
 Saturday should be interesting. It will be the first weekend day NYRA will be bussing in large groups from the OTBs. Also, it has been brisk weather thelast couple days. Weekend is looking good. Attendance last Saturday was about 5,000 I believe. It would be great to see 10,000 in attendance.
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wilderness
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2010, 04:30:33 PM »

"Saturday should be interesting."

 Perhaps NY will get some of the snow from London, Ontario Wink
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cheatsandthieves
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2010, 05:22:50 PM »

Mel it is the first time I read your ccomment and just to try and understand this a little better, why has this occurred?  Is it the tracks that have allowed new betting sites with less take for themselves or is it due to some governmental agency. I guess who signs these contracts that has caused the pain?
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cheatsandthieves
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2010, 05:28:19 PM »

 IDON'T LOOK AT IT AS BEING SUPPORTED BY CASINOS IN PA WE LEFT THEM IN TO OUR TRACKS AS PARTNERS CAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE HORSEMEN SO QUIT CRYING ABOUT WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM OR GOES IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BET YOUR 2.00 JUST SHUT UP

Trot man are you serious here, comments like this is what has caused the demise of the sport. Where would Pocono downs be with their 100,000 handle? The PA Breeders program?  Without the casino the horses would not be there. The casinos would be there sooner or later, PA needed the revenue stream from the casinos.

The said part of the deal as it turns out, is where the purse money is going to now.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2010, 05:29:41 PM »

Mel it is the first time I read your ccomment and just to try and understand this a little better, why has this occurred?  Is it the tracks that have allowed new betting sites with less take for themselves or is it due to some governmental agency. I guess who signs these contracts that has caused the pain?


If your trying to make the point that the various horsemen's groups OK'd these things, you are correct. HOWEVER, as with anything, under a false pretense. All that not withstanding, my simple straight forward plan, idea, whatever, has been the FOUNDATION problem in the industry since full card simulcasting took effect in the early 90's. The simplest truth, we need people in any way, shape or form, betting and participating in horse racing. As I mentioned, 8% of a total handle at any track and tell me what happens? Purses rise. Overall health of the business looks MUCH better.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2010, 05:42:36 PM »

Wilderness....excellent post....

Let me give the IL example. Purse accounts prior to 1986 were very easy, 8% to horsemen, 8% to tracks. Then after 86' (OTB's) They only gave 4% to the purse account with a well written clause.."until the OTB's are completed"....which of course never reached completion. THEN came the horse racing act of 1994 with full card.....added in the now infamous "recapture clause"....all of this has dropped the rate to appoximately3-3.5 % per the letter DAve McCaffrey sent out earlier in the year....The total combined handle at Balmoral still hover just over a million I believe?

  People, it's as easy as this, 1 billion...(BILLION) dollars are wagered in the lower 48 every month on all of horse racing. Now, I have no idea what the breakdowns are currently, but I'm GUESSING, that that should be PLENTY to make a healthy industry if distributed fairly. Think about it.
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wilderness
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2010, 05:54:26 PM »

People, it's as easy as this, 1 billion...(BILLION) dollars are wagered in the lower 48 every month on all of horse racing.

 Mel,
       It's NOT likely that the 2004 ANNUAL dollars ($2,404,005,593) have increased ten-fold, rather, it's likely that this annual amount has declined by some margin since 2004. (avg $170,000,466 monthly on harness racing within U.S.)
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2010, 06:00:05 PM »

It should be noted that despite a 67% reduction in attendance (1975-2004), the handle has remained the "basically" same (2004-1980).

all that needs to be done is to eliminate ALL FORMS of simulcasting, and therefore the exportation of local dollars to other states and provinces (even countries)

According to Steve Wolf, the tracks are not making money on wagering but rather concessions & other things.  So the 67% reduction (we can safely assume it's now higher than 67%) hits the tracks very hard.

Eliminate all forms of simulcasting?  Come on, Don, then your average handle at Nfld, PPK... would be what - $200,000?  Using Mel's 8%, a 10 race card would have an avg. purse of $1600.  Nevermind the absolute fact that the track could not stay open.  So elimination might help one or two tracks survive but the others would be completely gone.  Clearly not the answer.


You DO notice- none of these tracks are for sale. I would LOVE to own Balmoral/Maywood.I could get rich just from the program money.

Everything is for sale.  You just wouldn't want to pay the asking price.


Please, I am a more advanced businessman. Not someone who confusses loans and grants. And yes, the money is there for these patronage laden state agencies to give away as they see fit.
 If you are from Delaware and not familiar with NY IDAs and Enterprise Zones, I can see your lack of understanding. Trust me they exist . There are 31 Empire zones in NY and almost every county has an IDA. All funded 100% by taxpayer dollars and giving them away every day.


I don't know why the DE reference but i can tell you there are businesses all around South Florida that have closed their doors after many years of hard work & good customer service & good management.  There is no money available to them to save their industries.  Maybe the ones who are saved represent 2% of the total.  Perhaps you are too far advanced to know this?


Wilderness....excellent post....

Let me give the IL example. Purse accounts prior to 1986 were very easy, 8% to horsemen, 8% to tracks. Then after 86' (OTB's) They only gave 4% to the purse account with a well written clause.."until the OTB's are completed"....which of course never reached completion. THEN came the horse racing act of 1994 with full card.....added in the now infamous "recapture clause"....all of this has dropped the rate to appoximately3-3.5 % per the letter DAve McCaffrey sent out earlier in the year....The total combined handle at Balmoral still hover just over a million I believe?

  People, it's as easy as this, 1 billion...(BILLION) dollars are wagered in the lower 48 every month on all of horse racing. Now, I have no idea what the breakdowns are currently, but I'm GUESSING, that that should be PLENTY to make a healthy industry if distributed fairly. Think about it.

Mel, in order to get to the $ amount that's being handled, other states & simulcasting are necessary, bringing more hands on each piece of the pie.  I just don't think you really see all of the costs that are involved.  Honestly, have you ever owned a business?

I would ask Homeboy the same question but he already said he was "a more advanced businessman".
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wilderness
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 06:02:43 PM »

So the 67% reduction (we can safely assume it's now higher than 67%) hits the tracks very hard.

 ATTENDANCE Reduction, NOT wagering.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 06:07:25 PM »

Mel,
       It's NOT likely that the 2004 ANNUAL dollars ($2,404,005,593) have increased ten-fold, rather, it's likely that this annual amount has declined by some margin since 2004. (avg $17,000,466 monthly on harness racing within U.S.)


My number is ALL of horse racing. (all breeds, not just harness)....larger point, money is out there.
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Dolfan
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 06:08:31 PM »

Mel,
       It's NOT likely that the 2004 ANNUAL dollars ($2,404,005,593) have increased ten-fold, rather, it's likely that this annual amount has declined by some margin since 2004. (avg $17,000,466 monthly on harness racing within U.S.)

Are you serial?  17 million a month is all?  Can't be right.  If we had just 10 tracks a day with 10 races per card that would be 3,000 races a month.  That would only be $5666 per race.


ATTENDANCE Reduction, NOT wagering.

Yes, I know.  That's why I was referencing Steve Wolf's comments on concessions.
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wilderness
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 06:11:14 PM »

According to Steve Wolf, the tracks are not making money on wagering but rather concessions & other things.

 fan,
      "Historically speaking" tracks made their profits on these things.
 With today's attendance reductions, I kinda doubt any tracks shows a net profit on the amenities. The volume simply does not exist.

 Maybe the LBJ does on Jug Day, however I kinda doubt the Meadowlands or the the Hambletonian Society show any net profit on Hambo Day, at least considering all they pay out in promotions.
 Hell! Just the two years that George Foreman was at the Hambo cost the Society 40k (which George donated to charities).

 How much for all those Hambo Baseball Caps (in two colors) that everybody was wearing for FREE at the 2010 Hambo?
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »

Fan........my point is and will be....there are just as you say, "too many hands in the pie"....well, managemets have most any option they can think of to make money while taking more of ours. It is my "idea" or process that localities shouldnt get 1% of this and x % of that.(They all take 2-2.5% of the winning wagers) If the bet is made, and shows up on YOUR tote board, that track should receive 8% of it. Then the market will find the best of the best and the gambling dollar will follow.

 (For the record, "have I ever owned a business?")....what would that have to do with this discussion in what I'm trying to convey? Supernaut is 100% correct when saying, none of these places are for sale....they certainly wouldnt continue to open if they werent making a lot....because there's been at least 2 track's I raced at that were closed because they only made a small profit.
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wilderness
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 06:15:37 PM »

Are you serial?  17 million a month is all?  Can't be right.  If we had just 10 tracks a day with 10 races per card that would be 3,000 races a month.  That would only be $5666 per race.

 Calculator error (I despise using the Windows Calculator).

 I've corrected the number on the previous reply to 170-mil monthly.
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wilderness
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 06:21:52 PM »

Fan........my point is and will be....there are just as you say, "too many hands in the pie"....well, managemets have most any option they can think of to make money while taking more of ours. It is my "idea" or process that localities shouldnt get 1% of this and x % of that. If the bet is made, and shows up on YOUR tote board, that track should receive 8% of it. Then the market will find the best of the best and the gambling dollar will follow.

 Mel,
        "Traditionally" (once again) the "localities" (as well as states or provinces) cut of the take-out came from the tracks half of the take-out.
 Otherwise who pays for police, property-road-frontage maintenance, and all other burdens by the business on the local community?

 These numbers used to be published daily in most every tracks racing programs, however over the years, the references have been removed.
 At one time, the Michigan tracks included a little pie-chart of the distribution of take-out.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2010, 06:28:13 PM »

I understand that Wilderness....in IL it was 8/8/4. My point is about there's a HUGE amount of money swirling out there somewhere. THAT'S the problem with the business.

 Try another example....Dolfan challenges my premise of attendence is there.....on a "typical" friday or saturday night, how many people do you think nationally go to there outlet to watch the Big M? 15k? 18k? I know the people I used to hang with at balmoral back when, we always watched and bet there equally as much as our live races.....We can continue to argue but it seems futile. At least we "agree" basically. The nature of the beast is completely different, 2011 is a completely different animal than 1981.
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kingofpain
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2010, 06:29:14 PM »

I didn't read all the replys to this topic so someone may have answer this. Meadowlands does not NEED any subsidies from Atlantis City, all it needs slots at the track. If this happens then A/C will be closed within a few years. People use to go their when it was there only option but not anymore! The governor is trying to save a lost cause. There is nothing in A/C anymore it is time for Atlantic City to close.

For Illinois the racetracks do not need to be supported by the Casinos.  Just put slots at the racetrack. People then will have a choice on how to gamble while keeping the money in Illinois not giving the out of state rich riverboat owners  profits to spend out of state.
The riverboat lawyers are doing everything possible to keep the tracks from getting slot machines so they can keep the hugh profits in their pockets! They would rather try and convince the governor to raise state income taxes for every Illinois taxpayer then Collect the 300 million in fee's for licenses plus the added money the state would get each month in gambling revenues.





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wilderness
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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2010, 06:29:57 PM »

My number is ALL of horse racing. (all breeds, not just harness)....larger point, money is out there.

 Mel,
        With all respect!
 I admitted my blunder (17-mil vs 170-mil) when pointed out to me!
 Why can't you do the same?

 If your going to introduce a T-Bred analysis into this S-Bred discussion?
 Than I'll cease my participation in this thread?
 Unless your willing to dig up the stats and comparisons for ALL of horse racing for both attendance and wagering from approx 1975 to 2004?

 Personally, I've not any interest in whether T-breds live or die as an industry. In fact, their demise might prolong the Standardbred industry Wink
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Dolfan
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2010, 06:30:20 PM »

Fan........my point is and will be....there are just as you say, "too many hands in the pie"....well, managemets have most any option they can think of to make money while taking more of ours. It is my "idea" or process that localities shouldnt get 1% of this and x % of that.(They all take 2-2.5% of the winning wagers) If the bet is made, and shows up on YOUR tote board, that track should receive 8% of it. Then the market will find the best of the best and the gambling dollar will follow.

 (For the record, "have I ever owned a business?")....what would that have to do with this discussion in what I'm trying to convey? Supernaut is 100% correct when saying, none of these places are for sale....they certainly wouldnt continue to open if they werent making a lot....because there's been at least 2 track's I raced at that were closed because they only made a small profit.

Supernaut is incorrect as many tracks have been bought by Churchill Downs lately.  Doesn't Penn Gaming have a bunch also?  PPK is owned by Isle of Capri.  In fact, most of the pari-mutuels in South Florida have been sold over the last 10 years.  So, no, Supernaut is incorrect.  The ones who have stayed open either have racinos or have $2500 purses & are self-sustaining.  Other than the state-owned M1, please name me one track that doesn't fit that mold (of racino or $2500 purses)?

Mel, you're a good guy & I like conversing with you but when I bought my first business in 1997, I had no idea how much my break-even would become.  And it was a franchise, where "all" of the numbers had already been discussed.  Until you go through that, you can't really have a grasp on what an owner faces.


Calculator error (I despise using the Windows Calculator).

 I've corrected the number on the previous reply to 170-mil monthly.

Thanks Don.  So then the avg handle would be $56,000 per race if we only had 3,000 races.  Do you know how many races we average every month?  Anyway, again using Mel's 8%, that's an avg purse of $4480.

Anyone care to dispute that & show just how much those owners are raking in?
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« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2010, 06:32:13 PM »

I WOULDNT MIND MY MONEY GOING TO HELP OUT RACING ,IF THEY MADE AN HONEST EFFORT TO MAKE IT A GREAT SPORT AGAIN
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2010, 06:34:55 PM »

from Atlantis City,

 King,
          "The Devil made me do it", rather I simply couldn't resist Wink

 "Atlantis" existed in the time of Zeus and Hercules.
 Are there any stats on wagering and attendance from those days and before the earth quake, volcano or whatever else caused the demise of that city?  
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2010, 06:37:31 PM »

Wilderness...with all respect...(LOL)....I was simply showing a number shown as the total handle on horse racing, all beit not just Harness....My bad for any misconstrusions.
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wilderness
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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2010, 06:39:08 PM »

Thanks Don.  So then the avg handle would be $56,000 per race if we only had 3,000 races.  Do you know how many races we average every month?  Anyway, again using Mel's 8%, that's an avg purse of $4480.

fan,
      The numbers in the T&P's also include race dates, and a couple of other numbers.
 I didn't include those at the time because they weren't relevant?

 You want the total race dates for those three years (1975-1980-2004)?
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2010, 06:44:01 PM »

King,
          "The Devil made me do it", rather I simply couldn't resist Wink

 "Atlantis" existed in the time of Zeus and Hercules.
 Are there any stats on wagering and attendance from those days and before the earth quake, volcano or whatever else caused the demise of that city?  

Yes, it is said that Zeus & Hercules were both avid chariot racing fans & the nightly handle at the Mount Olympus Raceway averaged more than 4 million ounces of gold per racing card! geezer
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Dolfan
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2010, 06:45:33 PM »

fan,
      The numbers in the T&P's also include race dates, and a couple of other numbers.
 I didn't include those at the time because they weren't relevant?

 You want the total race dates for those three years (1975-1980-2004)?

Same year the 17 million number came from.
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
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