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Author Topic: Why should Harness Racing be supported  (Read 2372 times)
cheatsandthieves
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« on: December 08, 2010, 10:20:13 AM »

If a casino can produce a profit and give money to its state why should it be obligated to pay anything towards Harness or TB racing. If it can not make it on its own, then it should be gone. If people are saying it produces jobs and money through the breeding program then let the breeders pay the tracks to increase the purse money. Casinos will be around with or without racing, while horse bredding operations will not be around without racing.

Atlantic City should not be forced to pay Meadowlands and if the State feels there should be casinos on the Meadowlands area then so be it but not to fund harness racing. 

My answer is it should not be.
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Homeboyhanover
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 10:36:56 AM »

Make good sense, in a black and white world of bottom line thinking.

Truth be told, the A/C casinos could not wait to sign a payment in lie of competition agreement with the racetracks.
 This money was not a supplement paid to a dead industry to keep it afloat. It was a system designed by the casinos to keep a monopoly on the gaming business. They would continue to pay it now if they could.
 The last thing AC can tolerate is in state competition.
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vaporize
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 11:06:22 AM »

This country lives in a world of subsidies for everything.  Why not subidize racing ?  Everything else is.  bang head bang head bang head
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cheatsandthieves
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 11:20:41 AM »

Vaporize my business is not subsides by any government, actually it is just the opposite and
I am tired of it. Also being an owner I dont want the state money I will race as long as it is there but rest assure I will be out of it soon, my headcount is decreasing.
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HarnessFanDE
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 11:30:53 AM »

This country lives in a world of subsidies for everything.  Why not subidize racing ?  Everything else is.  bang head bang head bang head

The average person would be very surprised.....shocked even.......to know how many industries depend on government money to stay afloat......there are many businesses that aren't self sufficient......so to use the "if you can't make it on your own you should be gone".....is narrow minded to say the least
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SHOWTIME!!!
vaporize
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 11:32:02 AM »

Vaporize my business is not subsides by any government, actually it is just the opposite and
I am tired of it. Also being an owner I dont want the state money I will race as long as it is there but rest assure I will be out of it soon, my headcount is decreasing.
Not a fan of subsides either but it is what we do as a country. Not saying it is right but just a fact of life. Having said that, would not be surprised if Pa and Ind start reducing the amount they contribute into racing especially considering the handles they produce.
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FVRedhot
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 12:31:58 PM »

It is funny how people view the "subsidy" "given" to the racing industry.  It is very true that the initial compact between AC and NJ racing was indeed a gift to AC.  Not only were they happy, they were down right giddy with the right to control slot/casino action in the state with no competition.  Truth be told, that initial agreement did not "benefit" racing in any way.

Then we have the modern argument about "standing on its own", etc etc.  Subsidies are not the only form of assistance provided to businesses.  What about tax breaks?  What about other incentives designed to entice business to operate.  Quite often it is the ancillary componants of a business where the profit lies. 
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Dolfan
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 01:20:58 PM »

The average person would be very surprised.....shocked even.......to know how many industries depend on government money to stay afloat......there are many businesses that aren't self sufficient......so to use the "if you can't make it on your own you should be gone".....is narrow minded to say the least

I'd like to know who depends on gov't, other than financial institutions.  Who gets subsidies each year to keep them in existence.  Not just a helping hand once in 20 years, like the auto industry (who's help I opposed too).

Airlines have needed help, especially since 9/11 but they are an integral part of the American business world.  So who else?

Keep in mind that our industry is NOT getting help in the form of subsidies, just the state owned Big M.  Why do they deserve these subsidies while Nfld, May/Bmp, Hpk... are "left" to be self-sufficient?
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
sternnation
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 01:36:36 PM »

I'd like to know who depends on gov't, other than financial institutions.  Who gets subsidies each year to keep them in existence.  Not just a helping hand once in 20 years, like the auto industry (who's help I opposed too).

Airlines have needed help, especially since 9/11 but they are an integral part of the American business world.  So who else?

Keep in mind that our industry is NOT getting help in the form of subsidies, just the state owned Big M.  Why do they deserve these subsidies while Nfld, May/Bmp, Hpk... are "left" to be self-sufficient?
i googled government subsidies and got 4.5 million responses. the real question is who isn't getting gov't cash. the gov't hands it out by the billions, look it up.
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wilderness
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 01:57:11 PM »

i googled government subsidies and got 4.5 million responses. the real question is who isn't getting gov't cash. the gov't hands it out by the billions, look it up.

 It's likely that 4.4 mil of those results were pointed towards all those books and sellers offering their services to host seeking a subsidy.
 Hell! They even run on Info channels of the tele.
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Regards Don
Dolfan
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 01:57:45 PM »

i googled government subsidies and got 4.5 million responses. the real question is who isn't getting gov't cash. the gov't hands it out by the billions, look it up.

That's so easy to say.  I don't know of any private businesses that get gov't subsidies, other than what I already mentioned.

The days of throwing up your hands & saying "who doesn't" are numbered.  You cannot get away with a mindless, cynical answer on this.  I want to know why M1 should be any different than Maywood.
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
vaporize
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 02:08:59 PM »

That's so easy to say.  I don't know of any private businesses that get gov't subsidies, other than what I already mentioned.

The days of throwing up your hands & saying "who doesn't" are numbered.  You cannot get away with a mindless, cynical answer on this.  I want to know why M1 should be any different than Maywood.
because it is the Mecca of harness racing.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy Being Mecca, at least in this administration, is highly revered.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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Homeboyhanover
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 02:17:05 PM »

That's so easy to say.  I don't know of any private businesses that get gov't subsidies, other than what I already mentioned.

The days of throwing up your hands & saying "who doesn't" are numbered.  You cannot get away with a mindless, cynical answer on this.  I want to know why M1 should be any different than Maywood.

 It happens every day in NY. It is done on a local level with Empire Zones and IDAs. These are the agencies thet fund risky start ups that a bank reviewd and passed on, as well as established businesses that threaten to leave unless they they get big check.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2010, 02:54:33 PM »

When will all you people *** and moaning about racing not being able to stand on its own LOOK AT THE TRUTH of the matter......HANDLES ARE THERE....attendence is THERE, what is NOT THERE is a correct DISTRIBUTION OF PURSE MONIES FROM TOTAL HANDLES...... What the F@ck is SO HARD to understand? Because the nature of the game has changed and the laws havent, THIS is why racing is in decline and struggling. Does anyone believe or think Churchill is having any problems? NO. If each track was to get 8% of their total handle, (as if it were on track) purses would go UP DRASTICALLY. Managements have found a way to get 5 - 8 % of the handles that USED to go to purses that no longer do.....from one pocket to another....satelite companies, OTB companies, all own by the same groups of people charging money from left to right all ending back in the same place......


  Change those antiquated laws....and watch the business steadily improve. PERIOD.
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retiredtrotman
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2010, 02:59:55 PM »

  IDON'T LOOK AT IT AS BEING SUPPORTED BY CASINOS IN PA WE LEFT THEM IN TO OUR TRACKS AS PARTNERS CAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE HORSEMEN SO QUIT CRYING ABOUT WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM OR GOES IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BET YOUR 2.00 JUST SHUT UP
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supernaut
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 03:04:46 PM »

Mel- I agree with you that at some tracks that would help a lot. But looking at the handles in Indy,Pocono,Tioga, and Iowa, I would say that the handles are NOT enough to support purses at their current levels.
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vaporize
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 03:08:28 PM »

Mel- I agree with you that at some tracks that would help a lot. But looking at the handles in Indy,Pocono,Tioga, and Iowa, I would say that the handles are NOT enough to support purses at their current levels.
or at any levels.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 03:09:23 PM »

Mel- I agree with you that at some tracks that would help a lot. But looking at the handles in Indy,Pocono,Tioga, and Iowa, I would say that the handles are NOT enough to support purses at their current levels.



And that is very true my friend.....and the tracks not able to compete would go away. As an example, if the Big M handled roughly an average of 2.5 mil per night this year, 140 days = 350 mil....times .08? Is that enough for a decent meet? just curious. There's going to be less tracks, it is what it is.
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supernaut
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 03:11:19 PM »

 IDON'T LOOK AT IT AS BEING SUPPORTED BY CASINOS IN PA WE LEFT THEM IN TO OUR TRACKS AS PARTNERS CAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE HORSEMEN SO QUIT CRYING ABOUT WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM OR GOES IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BET YOUR 2.00 JUST SHUT UP

Where do I start with this............ Ok , just how and where did your "left them in to our tracks as partners cause they would not be here if not for the horsemen" come from? Do you REALLY believe that you could STOP the casinos from coming into Penn? It was just a matter of time.

And the last comment is what irks me and shows the true understanding of horsemen as to where their purse money comes from. IT COMES FROM THE GAMBLER WITH HIS $2 BET. So MAYBE, you just better be nice to him or he will go and play the slots and you will get NOTHING from him. Hmm, how about the harness races go back to their roots and just race at the fairs with NO gambling. How high do you think the purses will be THEN?
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Dolfan
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 03:12:24 PM »

It happens every day in NY. It is done on a local level with Empire Zones and IDAs. These are the agencies thet fund risky start ups that a bank reviewd and passed on, as well as established businesses that threaten to leave unless they they get big check.

If you're referring to SBA loans, that what they are - loans to open new businesses for qualified applicants.  The money is not there to give away to failing businesses.



When will all you people *** and moaning about racing not being able to stand on its own LOOK AT THE TRUTH of the matter......HANDLES ARE THERE....attendence is THERE, what is NOT THERE is a correct DISTRIBUTION OF PURSE MONIES FROM TOTAL HANDLES...... What the F@ck is SO HARD to understand? Because the nature of the game has changed and the laws havent, THIS is why racing is in decline and struggling. Does anyone believe or think Churchill is having any problems? NO. If each track was to get 8% of their total handle, (as if it were on track) purses would go UP DRASTICALLY. Managements have found a way to get 5 - 8 % of the handles that USED to go to purses that no longer do.....from one pocket to another....satelite companies, OTB companies, all own by the same groups of people charging money from left to right all ending back in the same place......


  Change those antiquated laws....and watch the business steadily improve. PERIOD.

Attendance & handle is there?  Are you serious?  I guess I'm just lost.  As is Nfld, May/Bal,...  You ought to buy these tracks - you could make a fortune!
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
vaporize
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 03:14:06 PM »

And that is very true my friend.....and the tracks not able to compete would go away. As an example, if the Big M handled roughly an average of 2.5 mil per night this year, 140 days = 350 mil....times .08? Is that enough for a decent meet? just curious. There's going to be less tracks, it is what it is.
as well there should be as well there should be.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2010, 03:16:36 PM »

fan.....the money is being bet from somewhere, so whether its in a living room on a computer or and ITW or OTB, the money is out there. AND, when a decent night of racing is presented people usually do come out and watch, even at Balmoral when I was there on Am Nat night, the crowd was reasonably large.....product still wins. As will the business, it shouldnt matter WHERE the bet is made, ONLY that the bet is made....
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supernaut
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »



Attendance & handle is there?  Are you serious?  I guess I'm just lost.  As is Nfld, May/Bal,...  You ought to buy these tracks - you could make a fortune!


You DO notice- none of these tracks are for sale. I would LOVE to own Balmoral/Maywood.I could get rich just from the program money.
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Homeboyhanover
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 03:56:11 PM »

If you're referring to SBA loans, that what they are - loans to open new businesses for qualified applicants.  The money is not there to give away to failing businesses.

Attendance & handle is there?  Are you serious?  I guess I'm just lost.  As is Nfld, May/Bal,...  You ought to buy these tracks - you could make a fortune!

Please, I am a more advanced businessman. Not someone who confusses loans and grants. And yes, the money is there for these patronage laden state agencies to give away as they see fit.
 If you are from Delaware and not familiar with NY IDAs and Enterprise Zones, I can see your lack of understanding. Trust me they exist . There are 31 Empire zones in NY and almost every county has an IDA. All funded 100% by taxpayer dollars and giving them away every day.
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wilderness
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 04:08:06 PM »

Attendance & handle is there?  Are you serious?  I guess I'm just lost.  As is Nfld, May/Bal,...  You ought to buy these tracks - you could make a fortune!

fan,
      "Basically" I agree with what Mel has expressed time and again regarding the take-out.
 However, I'm not so sure the attendance reference is accurate?

The following numbers are from two USTA Trotting and Pacing Guides U. S. only).

2005 T&P—Attendance (On-Track)
2004-6,006,395
1975-28,089,984 (high)

Wagers (total):
2004-$2,404,005,593
1980-$2,833,126,601 (high)

The USTA no longers keeps a record of wagered dollars, thus any references beyond 2004 will be quite difficult to compare.

It should be noted that despite a 67% reduction in attendance (1975-2004), the handle has remained the "basically" same (2004-1980)
.
 What's changed is the distribution of take-out (via the former OTB's and later simulcasting) and how that take-out benefits the local track and the purses at same local track.

 NOW that the OTB's have closed (an unlikely permanent scenario IMO), all that needs to be done is to eliminate ALL FORMS of simulcasting, and therefore the exportation of local dollars to other states and provinces (even countries)



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Regards Don
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