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Author Topic: Goldikova trainer says G has faced better than Z  (Read 2590 times)
mel4600
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 10:02:07 AM »

I hear she's coming for the Beverly D.

Naw, she is RETIRED!
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Marcus Hersh
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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2010, 10:05:13 AM »

Maybe Goldikova's connections can grow a pair to go with their mouth and run in the Classic against the best in the world. Remember Zarkova ran against weaker and demolished Goldikova twice in 2 tries, beating her worse the second go around. Goldikova has distance and surface limitations which makes her not as good as Zenyatta. The best will be in the Classic, not the grass mile! laughing guy  

You said you were leaving.
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Marcus Hersh
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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2010, 10:08:12 AM »

The best females know where she is at, and if they wanted to prove their point they could have run against her in any of the many Grade 1's. They chose not to and most have been dodging Z.

There are no "best females," which is the whole problem. RA's been a shadow of her former self all year. Life at Ten looked like she might actually have sustained high class, but that's clearly not happening. There's no one else out there. Only by racing against males, given the f & m climate right now, could Z have been matched with any worthy US opponent.
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Marcus Hersh
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« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2010, 10:09:06 AM »

Naw, she is RETIRED!

Wrong - that was only what her owners said.
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thoroughbred
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2010, 10:23:44 AM »

Quote
Caveat to everything that follows is the usual one: I'm among the biggest proponents of connections doing whatever they please with their horses. The cheap ones, the good ones, the young ones, the gritty vets -- let them run where they want to run, but that POV does not insulate a team from criticism.

As for the question of "what would you do?"

If you asked that a year ago today, I'd very easily agree with the latter portion. Sound mare who stays healthy, let's take good care of her and keep her winning and do something special. They did, and she did.

But I can't imagine choosing to bring a mare like that back after doing something as spectacular as she did in the Classic last year just to do the same crusty things over and over again. There's a fine balance that can be struck between "we can ship her all over the country and take on males every chance we get" and "we can take some chances to cement her greatness."

Because after last year's Classic, there's little doubt that they're racing one of the greatest mares we've ever seen, and yes, I can honestly say that at that point, I'd be saying "we may potentially, just maybe, have one of the greatest HORSES of all time, period. Let's prove it, and let's find out." Keeping a horse happy and healthy and campaigning them in tougher spots are not mutually exclusive ideas....trainers have found ways to do it for years, and certainly Shirreffs, we all know, is an excellent enough horseman to do just that. Would I be shipping for every race, taking on boys in every race, running her every 4 weeks into the ground? Absolutely not. But I'd have certainly been at the Stephen Foster, and my horse's health be willing, would certainly be in something like the JCGC to prep for the BC Classic. Taking on boys three times in a year is not an automatic trip to the sore-horse house, ask Goldikova.

Then when I go win the BC Classic, I'm able to say "look at what this horse has done, find me anything that matches up to her," rather than "look at these three excellent races my horse ran, tell me if she's the greatest of all time."

It's a fine line. They're doing what they want to do, and that's their right, but they wouldn't have needed to run her into the ground to take that next step. After doing what they did in the 2009 Classic, putting her right on the cusp of the pinnacle of greatness in racing history, it's impossible to say that her legacy among the greatest of great racehorses would not be forefront in my mind if I brought her back again. It's obviously not how they're doing business, but I don't think that it's quite the either/or as presented.

Hope that makes sense, tb.
First off let me lay my stupidity out for all to see! Can you explain to me how to insert just a portion of a quote instead of the entire thing? I have yet to figure that out sorry.

Anyway, Thank you Brian for an excellent response. Personally, I agree with you, after last year you would think they would have went more for the gusto this year or what's the point. The only thing I can conclude, They just really don't care what everyone else say's about her campaign. And they truly enjoy watching her run so why not just do it in their backyard. I could be wrong, but how else do you explain it?

I would love to read an interview where they explain their thought process and the reasoning behind their decisions. Your point about being in the Foster, JCGC is well taken,and my first scenerio was overly simplistic.

Perhaps they have decided with her being 6yo. they need to save her as much as possible for the BC Classic. They have stated that was their goal fromthe begining. Don't know.

At least this is more interesting to me then the endless "you're a poop head!, No, you're a bigger poop head!" we have been getting lately.
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Alpha Mare
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2010, 10:29:59 AM »

It's possible not to face the better competition and still be the better horse.  Wink

In my opinion, Goldikova has faced better (and lost one) while Zenyatta has faced less and beaten everyone. However, 3 BC wins including 2 Classics along with a Distaff win will put her in higher company than Goldi - even if she wins the Mile 3 straight years. They're both great. RA is not.


WOW.... even in a thread about Goldikova and Z....Stevie HAS to knock RA.....
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Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
OTB
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2010, 10:48:34 AM »


WOW.... even in a thread about Goldikova and Z....Stevie HAS to knock RA.....

You don't see that the thread was started by king shit stirrer to get a reaction???

These are two mares who do the opposite thing, one is a turf horse and runs in Europe (for the most part), the other is a main track horse who runs in North America.  Impossible to compare them and they will NEVER face each other  The only thing one can say is both are great mares in their own right.
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ZENYATTA
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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2010, 10:51:52 AM »


WOW.... even in a thread about Goldikova and Z....Stevie HAS to knock RA.....

I see you have settled in nicely in your recent marriage to the author of this thread.

I am sure you scolded him in private after posting he was all for combining all the Z and RA bashings into one thread.
I really feel for you.
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brianwspencer
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« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2010, 10:57:37 AM »

First off let me lay my stupidity out for all to see! Can you explain to me how to insert just a portion of a quote instead of the entire thing? I have yet to figure that out sorry.

Anyway, Thank you Brian for an excellent response. Personally, I agree with you, after last year you would think they would have went more for the gusto this year or what's the point. The only thing I can conclude, They just really don't care what everyone else say's about her campaign. And they truly enjoy watching her run so why not just do it in their backyard. I could be wrong, but how else do you explain it?

I would love to read an interview where they explain their thought process and the reasoning behind their decisions. Your point about being in the Foster, JCGC is well taken,and my first scenerio was overly simplistic.

Perhaps they have decided with her being 6yo. they need to save her as much as possible for the BC Classic. They have stated that was their goal fromthe begining. Don't know.

At least this is more interesting to me then the endless "you're a poop head!, No, you're a bigger poop head!" we have been getting lately.

1.) If you only want to quote a portion of someone's response (like when some yahoo posts a 500 word manifesto about a topic like this....I'm not naming names, but you get it Cheesy) just hit "quote" and then highlight the stuff you don't want like you would in a Word Document, and just delete it, making sure the quote tags are still around it the way they were originally.

2.) I agree with you. I don't think they care -- and I think lots of what goes back and forth is because lots of us WANT them to care. We want them to show how great she is. We want them to cement her place in history without a * next to it in some people's minds. We could potentially be witnessing the best horse we've ever seen, and as far as I can see, we're never going to know for sure because she's not getting a chance to prove it on the track. In my opinion, I'll never be able to label a horse The Greatest Ever when it revolves around one big race a year.

And I think it's quite clear that they're saving everything for the BC Classic, or at least have up until this point. There's something to be said for that, in their defense, but it's also a knock when we start talking about rightful places in history in my eyes.

I was also struck by this:
Quote
We can run her straight into the ground, but hey at least the nimrods on all the internet forums will say she ran a tough campaign.

Because that cuts both ways, as we're seeing. The flip side of that is "we can run her in soft races, elect to never test her save one day a year, and then people on internet forums can run around calling others haters and idiots and know-nothings when they have the audacity to wonder out loud if maybe, just maybe she's not what some people say she is, or wondering out loud what we're missing out on in terms of potential greatness, or starting fights when some look at her OVERALL body of work and the races she's run in and dare to not bow down and call her the best female ever, let alone the best horse ever because she has yet to prove it to them."

And she doesn't have to prove it to them, because it's their right to run her where they want -- just like it's those "internet nimrods'" right to say "hey, what if......?" because of it.
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mel4600
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2010, 11:02:04 AM »

You said you were leaving.


I was going to reel back and wait until they race again, however, stupidity needs to be put in its place sometime.
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jrstark
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2010, 11:03:41 AM »

First off let me lay my stupidity out for all to see! Can you explain to me how to insert just a portion of a quote instead of the entire thing? I have yet to figure that out sorry.

It works kind of the same way as with email.  Quote all of it, and then delete the parts you don't need.

While you are in the posting window, you can see the codes.  The first one is fancier, it has the poster's name and a string of code referring to the original post.  If you want to break things up more, you can use the "quote" button (it's towards the end of the second line of buttons).  Just make sure the parts from the other person are surrounded by open and close codes, and your part isn't.

I'll have to add spaces so you can see the codes, but this is what it looks like when you are typing:
[qu ote]stuff between here will be in a box[/qu ote]

And this is what it will look like:
Quote
stuff between here will be in a box

You can check it by using the Preview button below.

Most of the fancy features (bold, big letters, etc.) work the same way, with an open code before and close code after.

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Bob B
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2010, 11:53:10 AM »

Maybe Goldikova's connections can grow a pair to go with their mouth and run in the Classic against the best in the world. Remember Zarkova ran against weaker and demolished Goldikova twice in 2 tries, beating her worse the second go around. Goldikova has distance and surface limitations which makes her not as good as Zenyatta. The best will be in the Classic, not the grass mile! laughing guy  

Zenyatta has never raced on any type of turf.  To think she would have remained undefeated following the same schedule as Goldikova, who has raced in 3 countries over several different tracks with every turf condition from heavy, very soft, soft, good to soft, good, firm and faced boys in 9 of her 19 starts (all 9 in Group 1s) and raced at distances from 7 furlongs to 1 3/8 miles is taking Zenyealotry to new levels.  Zenyatta may have turf limitations, she may have ground condition limitations, she may have distance limitations beyond 1 1/4, but we won't ever know for sure because the farthest she'll ever run is 10 furlongs, she will never race on grass of any condition and she certainly will never leave the country to race.

I'm guessing that you are of the opinion that World Championships is an accurate moniker for the Breeders Cup.  On that, we will also disagree.
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alydar66
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2010, 01:17:40 PM »

I agree. Zenyatta can run on anything. I doubt Goldikova can run on dirt, synthetics maybe.
Just curious, but can you please tell us how you KNOW Zenyatta can run on the turf and Goldikova cannot run on dirt?
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mel4600
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2010, 01:21:54 PM »

Zenyatta has never raced on any type of turf.  To think she would have remained undefeated following the same schedule as Goldikova, who has raced in 3 countries over several different tracks with every turf condition from heavy, very soft, soft, good to soft, good, firm and faced boys in 9 of her 19 starts (all 9 in Group 1s) and raced at distances from 7 furlongs to 1 3/8 miles is taking Zenyealotry to new levels.  Zenyatta may have turf limitations, she may have ground condition limitations, she may have distance limitations beyond 1 1/4, but we won't ever know for sure because the farthest she'll ever run is 10 furlongs, she will never race on grass of any condition and she certainly will never leave the country to race.

I'm guessing that you are of the opinion that World Championships is an accurate moniker for the Breeders Cup.  On that, we will also disagree.

I'll go out on the limb that if they raced against each other on all 3 surfaces Zenyatta would win a minimum of 2 out of 3. Wink
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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2010, 01:46:21 PM »

The best will be in the Classic, not the grass mile! laughing guy  

The Best sprinters will be in the sprint; the best turf milers will be in the mile (sans Rippy); the best dirt routers  will be in the classic. duh.....

 clocker biggestal
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thoroughbred
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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2010, 01:50:43 PM »

thanks brian and Jstark for helping me out with the quotes!!!!!
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ChitownSteve75
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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2010, 03:25:22 PM »

Just curious, but can you please tell us how you KNOW Zenyatta can run on the turf and Goldikova cannot run on dirt?

Synthetic runners take to the green far better than a true dirt horse, everyone knows that. I was killing it in 2007 when these types were running on synthetics for the first time. As for Goldikova, I think she would not transition as well to dirt as Zenyatta would to Grass, IMHO.
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ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
mel4600
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2010, 04:05:58 PM »

The Best sprinters will be in the sprint; the best turf milers will be in the mile (sans Rippy); the best dirt routers  will be in the classic. duh.....

 clocker biggestal

The best claiming crown horses will be in the claiming crown, so whats your point? Which race would you rather win? If Rip is the best the Euros have, then they don't have shit! laughing guy
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CLOCKERbiggestal
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2010, 05:44:38 PM »

The best claiming crown horses will be in the claiming crown, so whats your point? Which race would you rather win? If Rip is the best the Euros have, then they don't have shit! laughing guy

Even Rippy has faced much better horses than Zenyatta in 2010.  dude

I know its hard for a Z partisan to understand that but she clearly hasn't faced much of a challenge in 2010.

However that will change bigtime when Zenyatta comes east to run her final race in the BC classic.


I'll be betting against her. Her price will be wayyyyyyy too short for my tastes. ....

Good luck betting Zenyatta against a salty group of Grade 1 horses. This years classic will be tougher than last years classic and at a track she is not familar with. thats a recipe for a chalkie out of the money.

 clocker biggestal
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« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2010, 06:16:24 PM »

I just really don't care anymore, but in fairness to Terry, I think that the fact that at one point this weekend, something like the top eight most recently started/commented on threads on this forum were, in fact, nothing more than blind and spiteful RA bashing proves that this "sickness," were we to call it that, is not unique to Terry.

I just don't have the energy for it anymore -- to repost the same 12 things I've posted 25 times apiece to participate in the same discussion for the 105th time with the same people, but for those who still do, it should be clear that Terry is far from alone with his "sickness" that leads him to post negative things about one specific horse just to stir the pot. If we were to all step back and come up with a reasoned analysis, my guess is that 90% of them would sound quite a bit more similar than we'd all like to think at this point in time, knowing what we know today through 8 months of the racing season.


And for the record, so you don't take it in a way I don't intend, this post is not even really directed towards you, your comment was just the catalyst for me writing this.

I don't know how anyone could have said it better.   This was old stuff for so soooo long.

Give it up PLEASE.
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« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2010, 09:22:15 PM »

Maybe Goldikova's connections can grow a pair to go with their mouth and run in the Classic against the best in the world. Remember Zarkova ran against weaker and demolished Goldikova twice in 2 tries, beating her worse the second go around. Goldikova has distance and surface limitations which makes her not as good as Zenyatta. The best will be in the Classic, not the grass mile! laughing guy  

Both have surface limitations, one only runs on the dirt while the other only runs on grass.

I would criticize Head for making those statements. It surprises me that he did it. There is nothing to gain from it and it creates bad blood.
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Alpha Mare
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« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2010, 09:47:39 PM »


I'm guessing that you are of the opinion that World Championships is an accurate moniker for the Breeders Cup.  On that, we will also disagree.


bob , will you marry me?? 
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Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
Alpha Mare
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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2010, 09:51:51 PM »

I see you have settled in nicely in your recent marriage to the author of this thread.

I am sure you scolded him in private after posting he was all for combining all the Z and RA bashings into one thread.
I really feel for you.


lol....didn't really pay attention to who started it...but i guess he needs some scolding!!! laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy 
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Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2010, 10:03:44 PM »


bob , will you marry me?? 

A very kind offer but my current wife wouldn't approve (I think).  I don't know if married horse players would work anyway Wink.
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Alpha Mare
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« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2010, 06:04:06 AM »

A very kind offer but my current wife wouldn't approve (I think).  I don't know if married horse players would work anyway Wink.

darn! lol......someone who feels as i do about the breeder's cup.....so few of us do!
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Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
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