Chicago Barn to Wire Breeders' Cup Handicapping Tournaments
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


October 31, 2014, 02:14:50 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Are Arlington's Days Numbered?  (Read 3432 times)
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1436




Ignore
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2010, 04:21:11 AM »

From my quick calculations, it looks like ~ $2,846,000 in total handle for AP today.

Not good.

Monmouth 7+ million in handle (22+ Million for the 3 day weekend).
300+ horses raced.
attendene for the 3 days 40K+

Yeah CT just doing terrible with no handle increase.

 clocker biggestal

Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2010, 10:57:32 AM »

Monmouth 7+ million in handle (22+ Million for the 3 day weekend).
300+ horses raced.
attendene for the 3 days 40K+

Yeah CT just doing terrible with no handle increase.

 clocker biggestal


No one said they would or are doing "terrible". That's something you made up. Argue with yourself over that.

There is something interesting about the Monmouth stats, however, excluding the anomaly of the big Father's Day crowd: Every weekend since the opening one, all three major stats - attendance, on-track, and off-track - have been slowly declining. You'd think if the idea of the government subsidizing the ying-yang out of horse racing to make it popular again really was a winner, that the numbers would be going UP, not DOWN, right? It's like the bloom's slowly coming off the rose.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2010, 02:56:00 PM »

Monmouth 7+ million in handle (22+ Million for the 3 day weekend).
300+ horses raced.
attendene for the 3 days 40K+

Sure, everything's "up", but you're ducking the issue, Al.

There is a bigger picture here, and that is that even with the higher handle, it's not enough to sustain the ridiculously high purses Monmouth is giving away this meeting.

You can't give away $1 million per day if your handle is only high enough to return $500,000 per day to the purse account...so please, try to stay on topic, and stop the high-fivin' and jivin' about what a success the Monmouth meet has been so far. There are a fair number of issues to be reviewed, positive AND negative.
Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 696




Ignore
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2010, 03:25:03 PM »

The State of New Jersey has projectd they will lose $12M on Horse racing this year.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2010, 03:35:37 PM »

You can't give away $1 million per day if your handle is only high enough to return $500,000 per day to the purse account...so please, try to stay on topic, and stop the high-fivin' and jivin' about what a success the Monmouth meet has been so far. There are a fair number of issues to be reviewed, positive AND negative.

I haven't quite figured out what kind of comparison Al's making anyhow. Monmouth is State owned, the State runs the meet and can extort the State-licensed casinos for a subsidy, and even if the NJSEA still manages to lose money on tbred racing ($20M per year the past couple years) the State taxpayers foot the bill. Arlington is privately owned and cannot extort the casinos or tap the taxpayers. Monmouth = heavily subsidized. Arlington = no subsidy. And it's supposed to be some sort of "coup" that Monmouth is doing better than AP? Or is it something else? That they're both "racetracks"?
Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 696




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2010, 04:02:46 PM »

. Arlington is privately owned and cannot extort the casinos or tap the taxpayers. Monmouth = heavily subsidized. Arlington = no subsidy. And it's supposed to be some sort of "coup" that Monmouth is doing better than AP? Or is it something else? That they're both "racetracks"?

Evans said the same thing. NYRA gets State loans to stay afloat , NJ gets big State Subsidiaries (for now), CD Gets the Derby, other tracks gets slots and AP gets a few goodies but not enough nowadays. CD rid of Ellis, Hoosier and Hollywood and there is no way he is bluffing about the future of AP. I am surprised they will not let Hawthorne die first.
Report to moderator   Logged
Kenneth J. Chadwick
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3047




Ignore
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2010, 04:46:49 PM »

The State of New Jersey has projected they will lose $12M on Horse racing this year.


Big Wally,

Only $ 12,000,000.

I think it was greater than that.

I would be leery of owning a horse today, knowing the dynamics of horse racing.

Kenneth
Report to moderator   Logged

It's a Wonderful Life, let's live every moment like its your last.
big wally
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 696




Ignore
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2010, 05:49:16 PM »


Big Wally,

Only $ 12,000,000.

I think it was greater than that.

I would be leery of owning a horse today, knowing the dynamics of horse racing.

Kenneth

"Nonetheless, the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, which operates Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands Racetrack, expects to lose $12 million from horse racing this year, authority spokesman John Samerjan said."


http://www.app.com/article/20100620/NEWS03/6200320/Racinos-at-the-Meadowlands-Not-if-casinos-can-help-it
Report to moderator   Logged
Mick
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1151




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2010, 12:43:28 PM »


Every weekend since the opening one, all three major stats - attendance, on-track, and off-track - have been slowly declining.

To me, Monmouth has the right idea.  They are drawing in locals who might otherwise go to Belmont, Delaware or any other east coast track.  This can't be measured in weekend attendance but in market share year after year.  As more tracks become less profitiable more will go out of business and the strong survive.  The strong get stronger by getting more horses, thus getting more customers.

It may not stay that way forever but I see this as their plan.

Economics 101





 
Report to moderator   Logged

I may not always be right, but I am never wrong.  Sam "The Genius" Lewin
ZENYATTA
Guest

« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2010, 03:06:14 PM »

I haven't quite figured out what kind of comparison Al's making anyhow. Monmouth is State owned, the State runs the meet and can extort the State-licensed casinos for a subsidy, and even if the NJSEA still manages to lose money on tbred racing ($20M per year the past couple years) the State taxpayers foot the bill. Arlington is privately owned and cannot extort the casinos or tap the taxpayers. Monmouth = heavily subsidized. Arlington = no subsidy. And it's supposed to be some sort of "coup" that Monmouth is doing better than AP? Or is it something else? That they're both "racetracks"?

Arlington cannot extort the casinos or tap the taxpayers ?  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy

I wonder who footed the bill and paid all the surcharges when AP was rebuilt ? Why does AP always have their handout asking for something they are not " ENTITLED TO " ?
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2010, 03:12:37 PM »

To me, Monmouth has the right idea.  They are drawing in locals who might otherwise go to Belmont, Delaware or any other east coast track. 

Sure they have the right idea ... get the State taxpayers and the State casinos to subsidize your operation. Simple dimple, instant success.

Quote
Economics 101

Indeed, those that are subsidized and do not have to stand on their own two feet will most often out-compete those that are not subsidized. Nations fight mighty trade wars over the concept.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1436




Ignore
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2010, 05:35:25 PM »

I haven't quite figured out what kind of comparison Al's making anyhow. Monmouth is State owned, the State runs the meet and can extort the State-licensed casinos for a subsidy, and even if the NJSEA still manages to lose money on tbred racing ($20M per year the past couple years) the State taxpayers foot the bill. Arlington is privately owned and cannot extort the casinos or tap the taxpayers. Monmouth = heavily subsidized. Arlington = no subsidy. And it's supposed to be some sort of "coup" that Monmouth is doing better than AP? Or is it something else? That they're both "racetracks"?

Its simply NOT extortion CT. In no way shape or form. Its a consession by the casino to incent the NJ racetracks not to install slot machines. In other words a payoff for less competition. Now if you can pay 20M and reap 50M in profits you are ahead of the game, aren't you?

and AP isn't subsidied what is all that money being held in escrow from the casinos.

is that a subsidy? or do race trackers in Illinios have a different word for a casino payout to the tracks.

 clocker biggestal
Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1436




Ignore
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2010, 06:06:31 PM »

No one said they would or are doing "terrible". That's something you made up. Argue with yourself over that.

There is something interesting about the Monmouth stats, however, excluding the anomaly of the big Father's Day crowd: Every weekend since the opening one, all three major stats - attendance, on-track, and off-track - have been slowly declining. You'd think if the idea of the government subsidizing the ying-yang out of horse racing to make it popular again really was a winner, that the numbers would be going UP, not DOWN, right? It's like the bloom's slowly coming off the rose.

The blooms off the rose??

Today 7,094
Last Friday 5,602

weather was practically the same.

Oh did I mention the 116 runners on todays card.  dude

Handle was down 500,000 to 6.5M from the previous Friday.

 clocker biggestal

Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2010, 06:09:08 PM »

Its simply NOT extortion CT. In no way shape or form. Its a consession by the casino to incent the NJ racetracks not to install slot machines. In other words a payoff for less competition. Now if you can pay 20M and reap 50M in profits you are ahead of the game, aren't you?

Really. If it was a mere "concession", then why are they constantly crying like stuck pigs about it?

"In other words a payoff for less competition." Yeah - That's not extortion.

Quote
and AP isn't subsidied what is all that money being held in escrow from the casinos.

Besides "held up in escrow and not being paid out in purses to attract horses and compete with the likes of the subsidized Monmouth", you mean? Subsidized means an actual flow of money.

Quote
is that a subsidy? or do race trackers in Illinios have a different word for a casino payout to the tracks.

If and when the tracks get that money, it will be a subsidy. Until then, our tracks are unsubsidized. That, you see, is the current difference between AP and Mth: Monmouth - heavily subsidized. Arlington - not subsidized.
Report to moderator   Logged
orioles
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 913




Ignore
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2010, 07:16:52 PM »

The blooms off the rose?? Didn't we have big storms last friday

Today 7,094
Last Friday 5,602

weather was practically the same.

Oh did I mention the 116 runners on todays card.  dude

Handle was down 500,000 to 6.5M from the previous Friday.

 clocker biggestal


Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1436




Ignore
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2010, 04:59:11 AM »

Really. If it was a mere "concession", then why are they constantly crying like stuck pigs about it?

"In other words a payoff for less competition." Yeah - That's not extortion.

Besides "held up in escrow and not being paid out in purses to attract horses and compete with the likes of the subsidized Monmouth", you mean? Subsidized means an actual flow of money.

If and when the tracks get that money, it will be a subsidy. Until then, our tracks are unsubsidized. That, you see, is the current difference between AP and Mth: Monmouth - heavily subsidized. Arlington - not subsidized.

By Illinios state law AP is subsidized. It matters not that they don't have access to the money. its a law on the books that AP gets money. Just becuase the casino industry is fighting the law tooth and nail (as opposed to Jersey) doesn't change the fact of the law.

Eventually they will get their handout from the casino's.

Heck maybe next year they run their own 50/50 with huge purses and run some other track out of business.

as various midwest tracks are doing to Arlington.

 clocker biggestal
Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2010, 07:28:57 AM »

By Illinios state law AP is subsidized. It matters not that they don't have access to the money. its a law on the books that AP gets money. Just becuase the casino industry is fighting the law tooth and nail (as opposed to Jersey) doesn't change the fact of the law.

Eventually they will get their handout from the casino's.

If they ever do, a comparison of a subsidized Monmouth meet to a subsidized Arlington meet might be somewhat appropriate. However, until the money is actually making it into the purse account to possibly attract horsemen, you are comparing a highly subsidized meet (Monmouth) to a non-subsidized one (Arlington). Subsidized in name only does nothing at all to boost purses and attract horses.

Quote
Heck maybe next year they run their own 50/50 with huge purses and run some other track out of business.

Arlington will not have that much money to give away, because they will not have Monmouth's additional subsidy of $12-$20 million per year out of the taxpayers' pocket that props up the NJSEA racing operation.
Report to moderator   Logged
ZENYATTA
Guest

« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2010, 08:58:57 AM »

AP was rebuilt on the backs of the racing fans and the state of IL with all the surcharges / subsidies on wagers.
Report to moderator   Logged
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1023




Ignore
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2010, 09:52:43 AM »

Could lightening strike twice?
Report to moderator   Logged
Mick
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1151




Ignore
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2010, 06:30:39 PM »

Sure they have the right idea ... get the State taxpayers and the State casinos to subsidize your operation. Simple dimple, instant success.

Indeed, those that are subsidized and do not have to stand on their own two feet will most often out-compete those that are not subsidized. Nations fight mighty trade wars over the concept.
Terry

I appreciate your concern about subsidizing tracks, perhaps Illinois can buy up Arlington when it folds.   

I was looking at Equibase and there are about 50 tracks open for business.  50 tracks, times 9 races a day, times 5 days a week is a whole lot of horses.  Horsemen logically will go where they think they can cash.  That means they will go where there is less competition.  Uncompetitive races will bore the hell out of racing fans.   By jacking up the purses, horsemen are more tempted to run and lose for the opportunity to cash big.

There has to be a weeding of the herd and some tracks are going to have to go belly up.  The weak will not survive but the strong will thrive.
Report to moderator   Logged

I may not always be right, but I am never wrong.  Sam "The Genius" Lewin
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.617 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Breeders' Cup
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Breeders' Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy