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Author Topic: RACHEL ALEXANDRA,THE 50k CLAIMER  (Read 3094 times)
ZENYATTA
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2010, 07:26:00 AM »

There is always the possiblity the rest odf her class has caught up to her in class.She beat creampuffs all last year and ended the season early.The rest of the crop may have matured and caught up to her plus she now must face any elders also.
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2010, 02:59:23 PM »

There is always the possiblity the rest odf her class has caught up to her in class.She beat creampuffs all last year and ended the season early.The rest of the crop may have matured and caught up to her plus she now must face any elders also.


 laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy and zen beat..what?HuhHuhHuh??    eclairs?Huh    laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy 
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Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
ZENYATTA
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »


 laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy and zen beat..what?HuhHuhHuh??    eclairs?Huh    laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy 

Whoever Z beat last year she continues to beat this year but RA no longer can. laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2010, 03:20:16 PM »

everybody is always asking "who has Zenyatta beat"? my question is Who has beaten Zenyatta?
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2010, 05:00:16 PM »

everybody is always asking "who has Zenyatta beat"? my question is Who has beaten Zenyatta?

An obvious observation. Also, How can someone say, "who has she beaten" when she has 2 BC Wins!  doh
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ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2010, 05:58:34 PM »

An obvious observation. Also, How can someone say, "who has she beaten" when she has 2 BC Wins!  doh

you put ENTIRELY too much emphasis on winning a breeders cup race......VOLPONI won the BC classic..boy is he an unforgettable bc champion.... laughing guy laughing guy
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2010, 05:59:56 PM »

An obvious observation. Also, How can someone say, "who has she beaten" when she has 2 BC Wins!  doh

yep and NEITHER win allowed her to beat jackson's horses for the HOTY title....darn
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2010, 06:19:34 PM »

yep and NEITHER win allowed her to beat jackson's horses for the HOTY title....darn

You have hit on what is about 80% of this whole debate, AM.

This supposed "love" for Zenyatta is really just a ruse by some of the biggest Jess Jackson and Steve Asmussen haters around here.

That is what makes their arguments for Zenyatta winning last year's HOY so easy to dismiss -- because they don't quite believe their own "for Zenyatta" talking points. The phoniness shines right through.
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010, 08:31:59 AM »

yep and NEITHER win allowed her to beat jackson's horses for the HOTY title....darn

I guess beating Macho Again and Bullsbay (both got buried in a Grade 3) put Rachel over the top.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2010, 08:46:45 AM »

I guess beating Macho Again and Bullsbay (both got buried in a Grade 3) put Rachel over the top.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy

that win sealed the HOTY vote for RA and you know it! a THREE yr old FILLY beating OLDER males......the woodward win sealed it...zenyatta could have won the bc ladies on fri and the bc classic on sat and she still would have lost in the HOTY voting....
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2010, 08:50:35 AM »

I guess beating Macho Again and Bullsbay (both got buried in a Grade 3) put Rachel over the top.  laughing guy laughing guy laughing guy

i guess it did...since two zen beat...Gio Ponti and Twice Over  BOTH GOT BURIED in DWC to a S. American runner, a S.African runner et al..... laughing guy laughing guy
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2010, 09:01:58 AM »

I wish I owned a 50k claimer like her.

Darn sure would campaign her different.

But------!

TS
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2010, 09:05:22 AM »

Perhaps this shows Asmussen as a trainer. Didn't have to do anything the horse when first acquired, now actually had to train the horse and has failed.
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2010, 09:13:43 AM »

Perhaps this shows Asmussen as a trainer. Didn't have to do anything the horse when first acquired, now actually had to train the horse and has failed.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

Right on.

TS
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2010, 09:21:03 AM »

Perhaps this shows Asmussen as a trainer. Didn't have to do anything the horse when first acquired, now actually had to train the horse and has failed.

This is a rather breezy assessment.

Do you have any actual facts to back up the statement that Asmussen "didn't have to do anything" to the horse when he first got her? Or are you just another Asmussen hater?

The request is for FACTS, please -- not opinions, or constructs, like "well, she was winning for Hal Wiggins, so she MUST have been perfect when Asmussen got her" -- that's an assumption, and a big one at that.

Wiggins is a good trainer, but he doesn't have the program, the regimen, and the staff necessary to have a horse hold his flesh through a rigorous stakes campaign, the way Asmussen does.
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2010, 09:26:37 AM »

It was meant to be a breezy assessment...not a detailed explanation. I will go with the logic that Asmussen didn't have time to alter anything with Rachel Alexandra before the Preakness upon purchase following the Kentucky Oaks.

However, when turning a horse out, more has to be done to get a horse in shape and reacquire racing form than when a horse is purchased within the racing season and has conditioning under her belt.

"Wiggins is a good trainer, but he doesn't have the program, the regimen, and the staff necessary to have a horse hold his flesh through a rigorous stakes campaign, the way Asmussen does."

Wiggins also had fewer horses; thus, a larger staff is not as necessary.
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2010, 09:46:11 AM »

that win sealed the HOTY vote for RA and you know it! a THREE yr old FILLY beating OLDER males......the woodward win sealed it...zenyatta could have won the bc ladies on fri and the bc classic on sat and she still would have lost in the HOTY voting....

I've seen many a three yold trotting filly beat older males in conditioned races and that does not qualify them for HOY.  The entire body of work does and that's what won it for her.  She beat much better fields in the Preakness and the Haskell than she did in the Woodward.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2010, 10:01:35 AM »

It was meant to be a breezy assessment...not a detailed explanation. I will go with the logic that Asmussen didn't have time to alter anything with Rachel Alexandra before the Preakness upon purchase following the Kentucky Oaks.

I'll disagree here. As an example. immediate benefit can be gained from a better nutrition / supplements program.

Rachel was no doubt put through the regular checklist of any incoming Asmussen charge -- plenty of time to fix minor problems with feet, teeth, etc.

No, I don't have any facts that say Asmussen changed anything at all, but your "logic" that there wasn't time to change anything doesn't hold up. There was plenty of time.

However, when turning a horse out, more has to be done to get a horse in shape and reacquire racing form than when a horse is purchased within the racing season and has conditioning under her belt.

Agree, in principle...but this is Steve Asmussen we are talking about here. He has healthy win percentages in ALL of the layoff categories. The idea that he isn't a good enough trainer to get Rachel back to her prior form is...well, it's silly. (Don't take it personally. Look at his numbers.)

Wiggins also had fewer horses; thus, a larger staff is not as necessary.

Agree, but irrelevant all by itself. We are discussing which trainer might be better suited to having a top-level horse not only survive, but thrive during a long and difficult campaign.

Even if you outright HATE Asmussen, you'd have to admit that he would be the overwhelming choice of the two trainers mentioned. No shot at Hal Wiggins intended, but let's be realistic: if you have the money AND a stakes horse in need of training, Asmussen is on your short list, not Wiggins. Money trumps sentiment every time.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 10:04:34 AM by Horse Voice » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2010, 10:29:54 AM »

Agree, in principle...but this is Steve Asmussen we are talking about here. He has healthy win percentages in ALL of the layoff categories. The idea that he isn't a good enough trainer to get Rachel back to her prior form is...well, it's silly. (Don't take it personally. Look at his numbers.)

Not to be a thorn in your side, because I basically agree with everything you're writing and don't understand the knee-jerk blind hate for Asmussen, but I disagree completely with that statement above.

While compared to some other trainers, he may still be a good layoff trainer, compared to his own internal stats, he is terrible with high class layoff runners coming back from breaks like Rachel's this winter. It's not until you get to his 2nd and 3rd starts off the layoff that he starts getting numbers that are in line with his overall ones. None of that, however, makes him a bad trainer, it's just something to keep in mind especially when we're analyzing form cycles on his runners.

I believe JoeMama tried to pull this one on me a month or two ago...I'll go try to find the post where I did all the research, because when you get into his higher class animals, he's particularly woeful off the layoff.
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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2010, 10:30:38 AM »

I've seen many a three yold trotting filly beat older males in conditioned races and that does not qualify them for HOY.  The entire body of work does and that's what won it for her.  She beat much better fields in the Preakness and the Haskell than she did in the Woodward.

The Woodward isn't a conditioned race.
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2010, 10:34:22 AM »

The Woodward isn't a conditioned race.


Are you that naive???  Of course not I was using an example,  to say it's because she beat older males that she won HOY is a total fallacy, one race doesn't get you that honor, an entire body of work does.

By using this logic Rags to Riches should have been the 2007 horse of the year over Curlin.

One race can't do it, a whole season will so to just proclaim that if you beat males your HOY is not correct.
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2010, 10:39:02 AM »

I'll disagree here. As an example. immediate benefit can be gained from a better nutrition / supplements program.

Rachel was no doubt put through the regular checklist of any incoming Asmussen charge -- plenty of time to fix minor problems with feet, teeth, etc.

No, I don't have any facts that say Asmussen changed anything at all, but your "logic" that there wasn't time to change anything doesn't hold up. There was plenty of time.

Agree, in principle...but this is Steve Asmussen we are talking about here. He has healthy win percentages in ALL of the layoff categories. The idea that he isn't a good enough trainer to get Rachel back to her prior form is...well, it's silly. (Don't take it personally. Look at his numbers.)

Agree, but irrelevant all by itself. We are discussing which trainer might be better suited to having a top-level horse not only survive, but thrive during a long and difficult campaign.

Even if you outright HATE Asmussen, you'd have to admit that he would be the overwhelming choice of the two trainers mentioned. No shot at Hal Wiggins intended, but let's be realistic: if you have the money AND a stakes horse in need of training, Asmussen is on your short list, not Wiggins. Money trumps sentiment every time.

If you think Assmussen's program of feed and supplements made for a turnaround you're crazy.  You mean to say Wiggins uses lower grade feed and supplements???

Why is Assmussen the default choice over Wiggins???  Because he trains 300 horses??  I'm sure they all get his individualized attention.....

Wiggins did a great job with the horse, HE is the one who developed her into the champion, not Assmussen, he bought a ready made horse...nothing wrong with that, but that's what happened.
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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2010, 11:17:10 AM »

I've seen many a three yold trotting filly beat older males in conditioned races and that does not qualify them for HOY.  The entire body of work does and that's what won it for her.  She beat much better fields in the Preakness and the Haskell than she did in the Woodward.

oh, i don't mean it that way, i should have explained it better....winning the woodward solidified her campaign much more than winning another race against 3 yr old fillies....
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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2010, 11:20:24 AM »

If you think Assmussen's program of feed and supplements made for a turnaround you're crazy.  You mean to say Wiggins uses lower grade feed and supplements???

Why is Assmussen the default choice over Wiggins???  Because he trains 300 horses??  I'm sure they all get his individualized attention.....

Wiggins did a great job with the horse, HE is the one who developed her into the champion, not Assmussen, he bought a ready made horse...nothing wrong with that, but that's what happened.

hey, I love the horse....and I agree.....and if I had an extra 10mil, I  would have done it as well....but I would have given her to Billy Mott..... Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2010, 11:28:34 AM »

If you think Assmussen's program of feed and supplements made for a turnaround you're crazy.  You mean to say Wiggins uses lower grade feed and supplements???

Easy there, Sparky. I wrote, "as an example" when I mentioned feed and supplements as something through which an immediate benefit could be gained. Couldn't have been MORE CLEAR about it, in fact. I said nothing vis-a-vis Wiggins' or Asmussen's feed and supplements. Slow down and r-e-a-d.

Why is Assmussen the default choice over Wiggins???  Because he trains 300 horses??

No. Because he wins, at all levels, and at darn near every track around. If you want to win money, get good horses, then use a trainer that knows how to win money. Is this really that hard to understand? What's next -- do we have to start printing instructions on toilet paper?

Wiggins did a great job with the horse, HE is the one who developed her into the champion, not Assmussen, he bought a ready made horse...nothing wrong with that, but that's what happened.

I'll give you partial credit here, Wiggins got her to Asmussen in great shape, but...close your eyes, and imagine Hal Wiggins a) having the courage to enter Rachel in the Preakness, the Haskell, and the Woodward, and b) the wherewithall and the horsemanship to keep her together and WIN all her races from May to September, and then have her win HOY...

Yeah, I can't do it, either.
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