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Author Topic: Race-Fixing Claims Probed At 3 Michigan Tracks  (Read 8393 times)
3 wide and wingin
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« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2010, 10:32:41 PM »

Putting someone not in on it on top sounds risky to me. Alot of these guys are just plain stupid. Do we give them more credit then they deserve? For 3 or 4 to try to get someone else home who is unaware seems a stretch. Now getting someone else home maybe.
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« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2010, 10:53:36 PM »

What's risky? They're trying to win AND they will have help. Sounds pretty easy to me.Once they leave, it's a piece of cake. Most guys love to win.
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looking in
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« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2010, 11:43:01 PM »

Just consider yourself very lucky when you win.I have raced at these places and that's how they are. There is usually one good driver that doesn't play. That's who they usually use on top.Leo Bauer used to be like that.

Leo Bauer has not won a race in 20 years.
IMHO   Our sport has enough black eyes today without bringing up past history, and I dare say it is a different ball game today.
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2010, 01:28:11 AM »

So I will re-tredd my point to the people that have their heads in the sand about fixed races being impossible at racetracks with small pools....

What they are saying is, that there has never been a fixed race ever at tracks other then Meadowlands, Woodbine, Balmoral and Maywood...is that what everyone is saying?

Every race track besides these four HAVE SMALL POOLS
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« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2010, 01:33:31 AM »

So I will re-tredd my point to the people that have their heads in the sand about fixed races being impossible at racetracks with small pools....

What they are saying is, that there has never been a fixed race ever at tracks other then Meadowlands, Woodbine, Balmoral and Maywood...is that what everyone is saying?

Every race track besides these four HAVE SMALL POOLS

sooner rather than later we will find out who is right. If someone is convicted, or takes a plea bargain deal...then you and I were right. if all 30+ people are found "not guilty" then we have to accept that we were wrong. But there is no shot that everyone will be found not guilty. And then, only those who can't admit they were wrong will continue to try to argue the point. We'll see...and there is way too much info suggesting that at least one person will be found guilty.
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« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2010, 01:45:23 AM »

sooner rather than later we will find out who is right. If someone is convicted, or takes a plea bargain deal...then you and I were right. if all 30+ people are found "not guilty" then we have to accept that we were wrong. But there is no shot that everyone will be found not guilty. And then, only those who can't admit they were wrong will continue to try to argue the point. We'll see...and there is way too much info suggesting that at least one person will be found guilty.

Free, there isn't one honest horsemen nor one solid harness better that wouldn't be excited about the possibility of the sport being cleaned up. What you are seeing here is a response from people with agendas. Trust me Free, I have horses. I know the game. I have dealt with every driver and trainer in the states of Michigan, Ohio, and the country of Canada. These people that talk about small pools may think they are smart, but they are ignorant. They are trying to make excuses to support the sport's intregrity.

If anyone on this board honestly thinks that these people are sitting there with calculators figuring out if their wagers are worth the pool sizes they are betting into need a serious reality check.
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Freelegged
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« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2010, 02:27:22 AM »

Free, there isn't one honest horsemen nor one solid harness better that wouldn't be excited about the possibility of the sport being cleaned up. What you are seeing here is a response from people with agendas.

you better believe it. And the people that want to give these crooks and thieves multiple chances before they are kicked out for good are trying to side with the scum of the sport. Like I said earlier, a lot of people who defend the dirtbags of the sport are not even involved in the business. And no, betting is not being involved. If they rolled out of bed every morning and spent the day at the barn only to then have the 10th race that night, with the 8 hole and not even get a check because of low-life, dirty, scum, juicers are stealing some more cash...then they would have an idea. And then you have this situation in Michigan...there are some families that have spent over 50 years in the sport without a blemish...and you have scumbags rigging races.. helping to ruin the sport. The blessing is that a lot of these people can't last 20 years in the sport, let alone 50-60 years. They are quick buck artists, that move on to their next scam.  thumbs down
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« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2010, 11:34:59 AM »

What they are saying is, that there has never been a fixed race ever at tracks other then Meadowlands, Woodbine, Balmoral and Maywood...is that what everyone is saying?

That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying the pools are too small at Nor, Spck for there to be many fixed races.  There's not enough money to be made & they'd stick out like a polar bear in the desert.  On their most crowded nights with the highest handles it is possible.  Nfld's pools are large enough & some of Hpk's are too.



sooner rather than later we will find out who is right. If someone is convicted, or takes a plea bargain deal...then you and I were right. if all 30+ people are found "not guilty" then we have to accept that we were wrong.

That's not what i said & that's not what the police said.  They said they are looking at races & I said I want to see replays, charts & payoffs for RACE-FIXING.  We are not talking drugging here - we're talking race-fixing. 

Please keep in mind that my whole argument is based on pool size & mathematics & logic.  I am not arguing in the least that any wrong doing should be forgiven.
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
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« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2010, 11:50:34 AM »

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ?   doh
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« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2010, 12:16:35 PM »

Why?

My logic: People who always say "harness racing" is fixed become positive of it once they hear this.

What's the upside?  Trying to convince someone who already thinks it's rigged that you've caught ALL the bad guys?  No one who thinks it's fixed is going to believe that anyway.
Doing everything in secret looks as bad to the public as the race fixing.
If someone already thinks the races are fixed, they're not going to change their mind. (many still keep betting???)
It's the fans future fanbase that has to taken into account.
I believe in doing things above board.
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« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2010, 01:11:51 PM »

Leo Bauer has not won a race in 20 years.
IMHO   Our sport has enough black eyes today without bringing up past history, and I dare say it is a different ball game today.

It's the same ball game today. And I was speaking about the late 80's so that would mean that maybe they got tired of betting on Leo. But the things that went on back then STILL go on today.
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« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2010, 01:56:08 PM »

It's the same ball game today. And I was speaking about the late 80's so that would mean that maybe they got tired of betting on Leo. But the things that went on back then STILL go on today.

 And the betting coups that went on through the old Auction Pools, with Geers, Murphy, Cox and many other horsemen in the late 1800's and early 1900's has continued as an accepted practice within the industry.

 There has (and may still be) instances of teller machines in drivers rooms.

 Does the later seem like a practice the public should deem as "acceptable"?

 Owners of horses, in effect, gamble with their investments.
 This practice is easily carried over into wagering on the races, in fact for many years it was an unwritten practice to provide winning tickets to drivers or trainers.

 When young horsemen come into an industry from multiple-generation-families and are aware that these things have been going on for decades, "why should they act any differently than their predecessors?"

 There have even been reflections in the periodical's of drivers making wagers when they received what may be deemed as "inside info.
 Many of these same people that wrote (and continue to write) these reflection articles are the same people calling for "cleaning up"?

 My intent in explaining all the above is to ask a question!

 How is the industry going to change something that has been going on for more than a hundred years?
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Regards Don
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« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2010, 02:47:44 PM »

There has (and may still be) instances of teller machines in drivers rooms.

The last time I was in the driver's room & paddock at PPK ( couple of years ago) there were indeed betting machines.
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
3 wide and wingin
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« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2010, 01:10:14 PM »

The last time I was in the driver's room & paddock at PPK ( couple of years ago) there were indeed betting machines.

When they took the betting machine out of the paddock at RCR there was some upset people. At first I was for it just for appearances sake but I learned that what it did was stop grooms from making their 2 dollar show bets really. Its kind of like a gun ban. You stop honest people from having guns by outlawing them. People who don't follow the law are going to have them anyway. I probably still lean to not having machines back there unless the public is unaware. I used to have people cry to me that they had a machine in the paddock so the public knew here.
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« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2010, 03:31:21 PM »

Back in the eighties, there was an actual live teller in the paddock at Northville. Anyone could bet at that window, Drivers, Trainers, Owners, and Grooms. Back then, in the winter Northville post parades and then the horses came back into the paddock until post time because it was too cold. The drivers would all line up to make their bets before they went out to parade. They would come back in from parading and cancel their bets and change to another horse because of the way the horse scored down. It made it very easy to know which horses to throw out on the gimmicks. Heck if the driver driving the horse was betting against himself and betting another horse it made it easy pickings. It was totally unbeleivable, they did it in plain view and ear shot of the fellow horsemen sitting there. I used to sit there all the time and listen to hear what they were betting......I cashed real well. How it was allowed to go on....I do not know.  Jim
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« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2010, 04:04:44 PM »

Jim,
     There was loads of "good ol' boy" kind of stuff going at Northville back then.

 Not sure what thread was talking about low payoffs and pools (perhaps this one).
 In any event in the early 80's at Northville, I had a $20+ dollar horse in the first and and $99 in the 2nd with the DD paying a mere $457, which I had three times.
 It was a Friday night and a decent crowd, however many of the "good ol' boys" were aware that the $99 horses driver-trainer had all his stock in prime shape.
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Regards Don
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« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2010, 06:07:49 PM »

update some one.
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wilderness
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« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2010, 07:00:49 PM »

Nothings changed.

 The announcement By the Ontario-RC suspending the Windsor Secy was the last.
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Regards Don
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« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2010, 07:11:20 PM »

All that hoopla and little has actually occurred.

I wonder if someone "within the industry" complained about a drive or two or three, threw out a lot of names and started all this.  Putting several under a microscope, shaking things up, getting everyone upset and all stressed out.  You would think if there was actual "evidence" instead of finger-pointing and name-naming more would have done by now.  JMO
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« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2010, 07:15:23 PM »

These issues are always about hoopla (bad press), s-h-i-t slinging and getting people to rat out other people.

 Generally in the end, the final outcome never approaches the hype.
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Regards Don
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« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2010, 07:27:29 PM »

I'm not into this conspiracy theory that's been afoot but I did bump into something I thought very odd.  Every morning I google for recent press releases on this story and slog through pages of articles and dates.

Last week this link surfaces to worldcasinos.com; I go to the sight and was navigated to Northville Casinos (of all things).  Every press release about this "investigation" was listed there.  First of all, there are no Casino's in Northville so the site tag was weird.  There were also Michigan selections for Hazel Park Casinos, Swartz Creek Casinos, Detroit Casino's etc.  In selecting Detroit Casino's there was not one hyperlink to any press release good or bad about anything. 

It definitely appeared that this casino-based site was going out of it's way to promote this negative story.  "Rooting down" as DN would say.  LOL.
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« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2010, 07:37:05 PM »

Mare,
         I wouldn't make too much of the casino site.
 There's lots of similar sites that in an attempt draw traffic offering any thing even vaguely related to the site's name.

 Over the years, I had many casino sites attempt to link to my websites, which I did my best to break the link and not allow the referred visitor.
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Regards Don
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« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2010, 07:37:41 PM »

Nothings changed.

 The announcement By the Ontario-RC suspending the Windsor Secy was the last.

What was the connection between that suspension and the other two?
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« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2010, 07:39:29 PM »

Mare,
         I wouldn't make too much of the casino site.
 There's lots of similar sites that in an attempt draw traffic offering any thing even vaguely related to the site's name.

 Over the years, I had many casino sites attempt to link to my websites, which I did my best to break the link and not allow the referred visitor.

Thanks Wilderness --- you're so smart.  Appreciate the explanation, makes sense. 
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« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2010, 07:41:46 PM »

What was the connection between that suspension and the other two?

I don't know that there is any connection Cary Over ... That Race Secretary suspension happened back in February I believe.
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