Chicago Barn to Wire BRIS
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


September 20, 2014, 11:04:24 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Trainer commissions  (Read 3997 times)
Claiming King
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1641




Ignore
« on: February 21, 2010, 10:46:27 AM »

Larry Baron on trainers taking a commission:

"If I'm buying a horse to give to a trainer and let's just say the horse costs $40,000. If the trainer decides to put 10% in his pocket for facilitating the transaction then I think it's DEAD WRONG !!!! That would only happen to me once and then I'd never use that trainer again..............EVER !!! I believe his job is to train the horse and help get the best price for "his owner" !!! The moment that I was questioning whether or not my trainer was making money on the "transaction" would be the moment that I should be backing up the truck to move the horses. Owners and trainers are supposed to work together as "partners" and that's what leads to success. I can guarantee you that you'd NEVER see a Bruce Saunders or a Josh Green jacking up the price for buying a horse !!!
I guess that might lead into the question about thoughts on horse agents but that's a topic that I'll start later. I have definite opinions on them but they're just my opinions."


I would think that a guy who has as many horses as Mr. Baron, would make it his business to know how to price one. If he thinks a horse is worth $50,000, why does he care how the price is split up? I don't think stepping on the price is an underhanded act by a trainer. Look Larry, I have a horse here for $100,000, do you want him? If not I'll ask someone else. You don't need to worry about how much I'm making on the sale.

What do you guys think?
Report to moderator   Logged
Suicide_Mare
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1124




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 11:14:28 AM »

I would think that a guy who has as many horses as Mr. Baron, would make it his business to know how to price one. If he thinks a horse is worth $50,000, why does he care how the price is split up? I don't think stepping on the price is an underhanded act by a trainer. Look Larry, I have a horse here for $100,000, do you want him? If not I'll ask someone else. You don't need to worry about how much I'm making on the sale.

What do you guys think?

MMMmm.  This is a controversial subject.  A trainer should get a portion of the sale (I think) because they are responsible for the horse's performance and value.  Especially if there has been a significant improvement in either.  A percentage used to be customary and always offered and upfront.  I think this custom has changed significantly.  Owners don't give a percentage. Trainer's make sure they are taken care of.  Not saying its right but it happens ALL THE TIME.  And especially when there are owners flipping horses a lot .... it happens to many that say it "never happens to them" or "they wouldn't stand for it".

The whole buy/sell thing is whatever the market will bare anyway.  Good subject.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 11:26:48 AM by Suicide_Mare » Report to moderator   Logged
sparky
Full Member
***
Posts: 194




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 11:25:47 AM »

If a trainer is "purchasing" a horse for an owner...then NO he should not make a profit on the purchase.  He is getting the horse to train, be happy someone else isn't.  Now on the other hand if the trainer is "selling" the horse for the owner that COULD be a different story.  If the horse has dramatically improved in his care and the horse is still competing then YES the trainer should get a cut for making the sale happen.  After all hes out the horse and any income generated by them.  But if the horse is a not cutting and the owners taking a loss, then no he should get nothing.  A loss is a loss is a loss. 
But there are plenty of owners out there who get ****** everyday but there "good friend" trainers.  It really gets to me sometimes as these owners really believe in their trainers and have no idea what is happening to them.
Report to moderator   Logged
manemonkey
Newbie
*
Posts: 20




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 11:27:19 AM »

Employees contribute to a businesses success yet do they receive a "cut" when the business is sold?  Why not?
One possible reason is they do not "pay up a percentage" if the business fails or loses money.  Why should a trainer
reap a percent on a good horse unless he also pays for less than successful horses or ponies up when horse has a catastrophic failure.  The owner fronts the cash, takes all the downside risk, and yet is supposed to divvy up the gain.
Trainers set their fees to cover expenses AND make a profit.  A "guaranteed" profit.  When a trainer can guarantee
a profit on a horse the I'll be willing to guarantee a commission on a sale.  Just my "businessman" opinion, if I don't buy horses, you, the trainer don't have a job.
Report to moderator   Logged
fairgame
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 558




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 11:32:23 AM »

I am willing to bet that the people who come down on the side of yes the trainer deserves a commision are those who would also be the ones who believe in tipping waiters/waitresses well while the ones who say no tip only the going rate or less.
Report to moderator   Logged
Suicide_Mare
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1124




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 11:44:22 AM »

Employees contribute to a businesses success yet do they receive a "cut" when the business is sold?  Why not?
One possible reason is they do not "pay up a percentage" if the business fails or loses money.  Why should a trainer
reap a percent on a good horse unless he also pays for less than successful horses or ponies up when horse has a catastrophic failure.  The owner fronts the cash, takes all the downside risk, and yet is supposed to divvy up the gain.
Trainers set their fees to cover expenses AND make a profit.  A "guaranteed" profit.  When a trainer can guarantee
a profit on a horse the I'll be willing to guarantee a commission on a sale.  Just my "businessman" opinion, if I don't buy horses, you, the trainer don't have a job.

Officers of a business are almost always vested with "stock" in an organization (whether it be purchased or offered as an incentive).  And yes, if the business is sold at a profit because of their leadership, they benefit and should.  As the brain trust, talent and strategic operator an "officer" is no different than a "Trainer", in my view.  And there is risk in the analogy you propose to reputation, future business, etc. if the business/stock goes backward.

In the case of trainers/horses nothing is guaranteed and there is very little "profit" built into fees.  Trainer's percentage from racing and repeat business/horses is the main goal.   Getting a % of a sale or a significantly improved horse is warranted. JMO 
Report to moderator   Logged
Claiming King
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1641




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 11:44:39 AM »

I guess I look at it almost the opposite of some other people. Before the owner buys the horse, he is offered it at a price. If that price has 10 or 15 percent in it for me, he doesn't really need to know that. It's on him to pay what he thinks the horse is worth. If that extra percentage is more than he feels the horse is worth, don't buy it. I'll find some one else.

Now, once he owns the horse and we're going to sell it, I feel I have a duty to let him know if I'm planning to take a commission. It's that owner's horse. It's got to be his call on when to pull the trigger on the sale and for how much. My cut might *** a deal. That isn't right. It would be nice to get the money if I improved the animal, but totally unneccessary. My owner has already paid me for my work.
Report to moderator   Logged
looking in
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3899




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 11:50:58 AM »

If the trainer is constantly on the look out for horses , does his homework, and beats the bushes for fresh stock, then yes he should get a %.  He he flyies to Iowa to check out a horse he should get more then expences. IMHO
Report to moderator   Logged

I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
manemonkey
Newbie
*
Posts: 20




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 11:57:23 AM »

Officers of a business are almost always vested with "stock" in an organization (whether it be purchased or offered as an incentive).  And yes, if the business is sold at a profit because of their leadership, they benefit and should.  As the brain trust, talent and strategic operator an "officer" is no different than a "Trainer", in my view.  And there is risk in the analogy you propose to reputation, future business, etc. if the business/stock goes backward.

In the case of trainers/horses nothing is guaranteed and there is very little "profit" built into fees.  Trainer's percentage from racing and repeat business/horses is the main goal.   Getting a % of a sale or a significantly improved horse is warranted. JMO 

If you are a private trainer I would agree with you, if you are a public trainer you are more of a "stock broker" business model than a corporate officer.  If all trainers only got horses based on their success rate there would be no lower level trainers or tracks.  I would agree with most here that "any and all terms should be discussed up front", in medical terms "inform before you preform", I also think the notion that if theres an "unknown" cut in a  horse transaction and it costs the owner money that this if poor policy.  While the owner is paying what they think (perhaps based on a trainers input) a fair price, should they later find out that included a trainers cut, they will not make for a trustworthy relationship.  
Report to moderator   Logged
Claiming King
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1641




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 12:06:48 PM »

I don't look at it that way. I never sold a client a horse for more than I thought it was worth. I was able to beat up a good deal on the purchase because of my skills. That has value. I don't think I owe an owner a breakdown of the costs any more than the local grocer owes me a breakdown on who splits the dollar I pay for my milk. There's no hidden pricing. An owner can choose to play or not. I might not take the money from a new owner that I wanted to get into the game. But a guy like Larry Baron is supposed to be a sophisticated investor. He owns a million horses. He should be able to price one comfortably by now without Josh Green or Bruce Saunders telling him what it's worth.
Report to moderator   Logged
looking in
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3899




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 12:26:02 PM »

I bet Mr. Baron has payed many a %. He just didn't know it.
I have sold a lot of horse by private sale . Here is a couple stories .

Late 1970's
I sell for nearly a $100,000 a very nice 3 year old to a hot east coast trainer and his prominent Lawyer owner.
The trainers flies out to look at the horse. He made no bones about it. $5,000 cash and I ok the horse. No cash No sale.

Few years later I sell one for $40,000.
The trainer shows up with a check for $45,000.
"What is this"
"An extra $2,500 for you and $2,500 cash for me, but don't tell the owner".

Sold one once for $5,500. That night the trainer sold half the horse to his partner for $5,000. Tens years later the partner called me and asked what I had sold the horse for. Because the trainer had been so greedy, I told him the truth.
Report to moderator   Logged

I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
Claiming King
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1641




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 12:29:15 PM »

How did the $100,000 colt turn out?
Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 12:36:19 PM »

If a guy buys a horse for me to give to him to train, and receives an "under the table" fee, he is a thief! He should be up front with "all" his fees. Bottom line, he screwed the owner.
Report to moderator   Logged
Claiming King
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1641




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 12:38:22 PM »

It's not "under the table". Don't you think you have an obligation to know what you're buying? I don't know what business you're in but I'm guessing you don't tell your customers exactly how much profit you make off a sale.
Report to moderator   Logged
looking in
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3899




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 12:40:43 PM »

How did the $100,000 colt turn out?
He went to Northfield and won the Aged Inv.
Next two starts were wins at The Meadowlands.
Next was the Provincial Cup were he got beat for the first time as a three year old.
 A couple more starts and he then got sick and near died.
Next year he is in Phil Tully's sale. I call up Tully and ask how the horse is, He says "Not to good they just called to say he died last night."
Report to moderator   Logged

I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
Alpha Mare
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3845

OYE VEY!!!!



« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 12:50:51 PM »

as a person who deals in the hunter/jumper world.....usually when a client's trainer/coach finds the horse thru another trainer.....there is a 10-15% commission paid to the trainer of the buyer and the trainer of the seller, with those fees worked into the selling price.....the buyer and seller clients don't always know about it....if i find a nice horse for a client from a private seller.....i get a standard 10% commission for doing the leg work, contacts, etc...if a client shows me a video of a horse she really likes and is interested in and we drive 5 hrs to see it, ride and jump it, stay over ,etc, she is responsible for all driving, gas, tolls, hotels, food,etc  and i get $100/day for my time/expertise....if she buys said animal, there is no commission fee......if the buyer choses to toss a few $$ my way, that is a bonus....on the A circuit , however.....commissions are rampant...and when you are buying/selling an equitation horse or jumper for 250k.......
Report to moderator   Logged

Absolutely amazing.......s.m.h.....
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 01:02:01 PM »

It's not "under the table". Don't you think you have an obligation to know what you're buying? I don't know what business you're in but I'm guessing you don't tell your customers exactly how much profit you make off a sale.

I was in the horse business for over 30 years, if you are selling a horse you can get what ever the market bares. If you are my trainer and you suggest I buy a horse and add 10% or 15% on the side with the seller, you are ripping me off. You need to tell me before hand that the horse you are suggesting for me to buy, and "YOU" will be training, that you are charging me a fee.
Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2010, 01:05:28 PM »

as a person who deals in the hunter/jumper world.....usually when a client's trainer/coach finds the horse thru another trainer.....there is a 10-15% commission paid to the trainer of the buyer and the trainer of the seller, with those fees worked into the selling price.....the buyer and seller clients don't always know about it....if i find a nice horse for a client from a private seller.....i get a standard 10% commission for doing the leg work, contacts, etc...if a client shows me a video of a horse she really likes and is interested in and we drive 5 hrs to see it, ride and jump it, stay over ,etc, she is responsible for all driving, gas, tolls, hotels, food,etc  and i get $100/day for my time/expertise....if she buys said animal, there is no commission fee......if the buyer choses to toss a few $$ my way, that is a bonus....on the A circuit , however.....commissions are rampant...and when you are buying/selling an equitation horse or jumper for 250k.......

Nothing wrong with what you posted since your client is aware of the charges.  thumbs up
Report to moderator   Logged
looking in
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3899




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2010, 01:15:05 PM »

Not to over simplify the % question, and it's ethics,
But
Dose anyone ask the tire store how much they payed for the tires they are about to install on your car.
Report to moderator   Logged

I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 01:27:10 PM »

Not to over simplify the % question, and it's ethics,
But
Dose anyone ask the tire store how much they payed for the tires they are about to install on your car.

That's not the same thing. A better example would be that you have a business partner in a building business where you handle the accounting, permits, approvals, and your partner handles the materials purchases. He asks the supplier to pad the price 10% or 15%, and asks the supplier to pay him a fee under the table. What would you think of your partner if you find out?
Report to moderator   Logged
wilderness
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3862




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 01:32:32 PM »

I don't think I owe an owner a breakdown of the costs any more than the local grocer owes me a breakdown on who splits the dollar I pay for my milk.


Dose anyone ask the tire store how much they payed for the tires they are about to install on your car.

 There are not fair analogy's.

When your driving down the street and decide to visit a store, your well-aware that the store is a retail outlet and of the long-established procedures of retail outlets (regardless of product) since you were a child.
Report to moderator   Logged

Regards Don
looking in
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3899




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 01:44:50 PM »

That's not the same thing. A better example would be that you have a business partner in a building business where you handle the accounting, permits, approvals, and your partner handles the materials purchases. He asks the supplier to pad the price 10% or 15%, and asks the supplier to pay him a fee under the table. What would you think of your partner if you find out?
What's the problem? Is that not normal business? How else would things get done?
Report to moderator   Logged

I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
Mel from Moline
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3184




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2010, 01:52:52 PM »

15 or more years ago, taking "cash off the top' was the standard operating procedure but not anymore. people who strictly broker horses get a standard 10% but a trainer making a private purchase doesnt do much of that anymore. For all the reasons listed....it USED to be one of those "cost of business" things...an implied part of the deal.
Report to moderator   Logged

Horses make the humans...not the other way around.
GGNJ
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1314




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2010, 02:10:36 PM »

Much bigger issue. It happens every single day. There are different trainers and different owners. Good, bad, honest, dishonest, and so on. One one hand you have agents who are, for the most part, commission-based salespeople. If there is an agent on a deal--you should know up front and get in writing what they are making. If an agent brings a horse to an owner, then who knows, maybe the trainer is, maybe he isn't. Buying trainer, selling trainer. If the trainer brings you a horse, maybe he/she is making money, maybe not.

To me, it's simple--if you are concerned about your trainer, his/her integrity, and things along those lines, then you don't have the right trainer for you. Period. If the trainer is up front with you and tells you there is X% for him/her--then you have a decision to make. Do you agree or disagree with that.

I think there are very few agents who are honest and have integrity.
Report to moderator   Logged
OldGreyMare
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1271


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2010, 02:15:04 PM »

If you are a private trainer I would agree with you, if you are a public trainer you are more of a "stock broker" business model than a corporate officer.  If all trainers only got horses based on their success rate there would be no lower level trainers or tracks.  I would agree with most here that "any and all terms should be discussed up front", in medical terms "inform before you preform", I also think the notion that if theres an "unknown" cut in a  horse transaction and it costs the owner money that this if poor policy.  While the owner is paying what they think (perhaps based on a trainers input) a fair price, should they later find out that included a trainers cut, they will not make for a trustworthy relationship.  

  That's where the question gets sticky.  The owner is likely depending on the trainer's knowledge of whether the horse is worth it or not.  Also, you might have the selling trainer and the buying trainer both taking a cut... and if the 2 of them are buddies....
Report to moderator   Logged

Check out my Facebook Page:  Flo Browne Horsemanship Training
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Arlington Million
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy