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Author Topic: CLAIMING A HORSE THAT'S SCRATCHED !!  (Read 2427 times)
Homestretch
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« on: February 17, 2010, 07:55:43 AM »

I ALMOST CLAIMED ONE, ALTHOUGH IT OCCURED TO ME, THE TRAINER DISCOVERED THERE WERE GOING TO BE MULTIPLE CLAIMS, AND SCRATCHED HIM FOR THAT REASON ALONE !!!!

WHAT ARE THE RULES IN YOUR STATE ??
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 07:59:00 AM »

  There's always 2 sets of rules:  one for the little guy and one for the big guys.
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 08:04:04 AM »

In NY, I remember the rule to be the horse was eligible to be claimed for the entered, scratched tag for up to 30 days. No matter what class or tag he is entered for at that track.
 I say that is how I remember it because it may have been modified since I worked for the RWB.
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 08:05:32 AM »

In every jurisdiction I ever raced in: In the event a scratched horse is claimed, a trainer must make arrangements to deliver the claimed horse expeditiously to the claimant with all expenses of said delivery to be incurred by the original trainer. I am sure if it did not happen to the expectations of the successful claimant the judges would step in immediately and ensure said delivery would be done immediately.
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 08:14:11 AM »

  That's supposed to be the rule, however, 2 years ago a friend drove up from Long Island to claim a horse.   Horse was scratched.  Was told he could claim the horse next time it raced for the original claim tag... IF  1.  Horse raced back within 30 days AND horse raced in PA.  Horse raced in Jersey instead.  After 30 days returned to PA for a higher tag.
   Now if the situation was reversed, do you think the Long Island guy would have gotten away with that?
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Homestretch
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 08:18:47 AM »

In every jurisdiction I ever raced in: In the event a scratched horse is claimed, a trainer must make arrangements to deliver the claimed horse expeditiously to the claimant with all expenses of said delivery to be incurred by the original trainer. I am sure if it did not happen to the expectations of the successful claimant the judges would step in immediately and ensure said delivery would be done immediately.
That's the rule in New Jersey, but I was wondering about different areas of the Country also.

One of my horses was claimed a few weeks ago by Casie Coleman at the Meadowlands for 60K.
She dropped him in for the same price, and then there was a late scratch.
Tough decision cause you don't know what happened during that week, so we passed.
It turnes out, her groom trained the wrong horse all week, and delivered same to the paddock where the tatoo revealed the mistake, so the Horse was scratched !!!

He was claimed the following week by Carmine, and has not raced well yet.
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Homeboyhanover
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 08:25:53 AM »

You one lucky guy, John.
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Homestretch
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 08:29:41 AM »

You one lucky guy, John.
Maybe,
Jean was getting along real well with Windsong Destroyer, and maybe the new trainer needs a few starts with him.
Hopefully WD will once again prove that he is a better then average race horse !!
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 08:36:01 AM »

John, I have raced in the following states: MI, IN, IL, VA, CA, and the province of Ontario. I am sure that every one of those jurisdictions had/have the same rule. My life dream was to have a horse good enough to race at M1. I never did fulfill that dream, however two of my horses that I sold did race there and fared very well.
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Homestretch
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 08:42:18 AM »

John, I have raced in the following states: MI, IN, IL, VA, CA, and the province of Ontario. I am sure that every one of those jurisdictions had/have the same rule. My life dream was to have a horse good enough to race at M1. I never did fulfill that dream, however two of my horses that I sold did race there and fared very well.
AHH YES, THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN AN OWNERS DREAM WAS TO RACE AT THE BIG M !!!!!!

WELL THINGS HAVE CERTINALY CHANGED OVER THE YEARS.
ONCE POCONO AND CHESTER OPEN, MOST OF THE GOOD ONE'S WILL LEAVE, AND WE'LL SOON BE WATCHING 7,500 CLAIMERS WITH 7 HORSE FIELDS !!

TO MUCH COMPETITION FROM ALL THE SURROUNDING SLOT RICH STATES.
MEADOWLANDS IS SURROUNDED BY YONKERS, POCONO, CHESTER, AND DOVER DOWNS.
CUSTER WILL FALL EVENTUALLY, CAUSE HE'S RUNNING OUT OF BULLETS !!!

HOPE YOU OBTAIN YOUR GOAL SOMEDAY !!
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 08:49:56 AM »

Thanks John, sadly there will be no chance of me fulfilling that dream. I retired in 2005 from General Motors, sold the farm, all the horses, equipment, etc. and moved to south Florida. I used to fly to The Big M every year for the Meadowlands Pace weekend, being there was a thrill,racing there would have truly been a dream come true. Good luck with your horses John, I follow them and root and cheer for you everytime they race. You will need to get some more now since you lost Destroyer and Fire.
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Homestretch
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 12:15:47 PM »

Thanks John, sadly there will be no chance of me fulfilling that dream. I retired in 2005 from General Motors, sold the farm, all the horses, equipment, etc. and moved to south Florida. I used to fly to The Big M every year for the Meadowlands Pace weekend, being there was a thrill,racing there would have truly been a dream come true. Good luck with your horses John, I follow them and root and cheer for you everytime they race. You will need to get some more now since you lost Destroyer and Fire.
We did claim "JL'S Man Of Action" a few weeks ago and finished a pretty good 3rd last week, the only one with pace at the end of the mile.
They draw today for Saturday, and he should get in.
I'll keep you posted.
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 12:31:17 PM »

just to clear some things up. lets say there is one minute to post and you have a claim in on the 4 horse  at the big m. the driver of the 4 brings him off the track and says hes lame , you got to scratch him. ok hes scratched lame. if you, the claimant, dont call the judges before off time of that race and tell them personally that you dont want the horse. you will own him after the race. just because he is scratched does not automatically void the claim in this situation.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 12:32:58 PM by swoopdaddy » Report to moderator   Logged
Homestretch
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 12:42:57 PM »

just to clear some things up. lets say there is one minute to post and you have a claim in on the 4 horse  at the big m. the driver of the 4 brings him off the track and says hes lame , you got to scratch him. ok hes scratched lame. if you, the claimant, dont call the judges before off time of that race and tell them personally that you dont want the horse. you will own him after the race. just because he is scratched does not automatically void the claim in this situation.
That's a good question Swoop.
To the best of my knowledge, once the judges have the claim, there's no way to void it.
If the horse dies on the track during the warmup, I think the claimant owns him.
Never seen it happen though.
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 01:14:37 PM »

I claimed one that had a slab fracture after the race. Never raced again. That was a tough one to swallow.
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 01:24:37 PM »

if the guy that has the claimin doesnt want the horse after the scratch. you may have only a minute depending when hes scratched. the guy with the claim in must call the judges before the race starts.he can then void the claim. he doesnt call the judge he will own him. this has happened. one night noel daley has a claim in on a horse.before the race he colics in the paddock at the big m and has to go to new bolton. noel leaves thinking his claim is void. th nexy day new bolton call noel up to tell him his horse will be okay. noel says its not my horse. but it was because he didnt call the judges to void it before off time for that race. later that year croghan has  claim in on a horse called new bolton. campbell brings him off the track and say s he isjust to sore to go. croghan calls the judge  and asks him what are his options. the judge says the race is going il talk to you after the race and hangs up.  the race goes and now its a big mess because ross called the judge and he never got the chance to void it because the judge hung up on him. the original trainer kept the horse and the claim was voided.
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 01:33:51 PM »

if the guy that has the claimin doesnt want the horse after the scratch. you may have only a minute depending when hes scratched. the guy with the claim in must call the judges before the race starts.he can then void the claim. he doesnt call the judge he will own him. this has happened. one night noel daley has a claim in on a horse.before the race he colics in the paddock at the big m and has to go to new bolton. noel leaves thinking his claim is void. th nexy day new bolton call noel up to tell him his horse will be okay. noel says its not my horse. but it was because he didnt call the judges to void it before off time for that race. later that year croghan has  claim in on a horse called new bolton. campbell brings him off the track and say s he isjust to sore to go. croghan calls the judge  and asks him what are his options. the judge says the race is going i talk to after he raceand hangsup.  the race goes and now its a big mess because ross called the judge and he never got the chance to void it because thejudge hung up on him. the original trainer kept the horse and the claim was voided.
Thanks for the Info.
I didn't know that. 
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 02:32:00 PM »

I know that you own the horse once he has gone behind the starting gate and has started. If he's hurt or worse before that then there would be no claim. If he's injured or worse after the start then he's the new owners property. Once knew a guy who claimed one at Laurel for $30k and the horse broke a leg at the finish, he lost it all plus expenses for removal. If a scratched horse is claimed around here you are supposed to try to bring the horse to the track the next morning i believe and the claimant may examine them and decide if they want them, with exceptions if the horse can't be moved for medical reasons. This rarely happens, most don't want to take the risk that he was scratched sick but is really lame.
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 02:46:11 PM »

I know that you own the horse once he has gone behind the starting gate and has started. If he's hurt or worse before that then there would be no claim. If he's injured or worse after the start then he's the new owners property. Once knew a guy who claimed one at Laurel for $30k and the horse broke a leg at the finish, he lost it all plus expenses for removal. If a scratched horse is claimed around here you are supposed to try to bring the horse to the track the next morning i believe and the claimant may examine them and decide if they want them, with exceptions if the horse can't be moved for medical reasons. This rarely happens, most don't want to take the risk that he was scratched sick but is really lame.
in nj if the man with the claim in does not call the judge the claim would go forth at off time of the race. IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY VOID JUST BECAUSE THE HORSE IS A NONSTARTER
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 02:55:38 PM »

We did claim "JL'S Man Of Action" a few weeks ago and finished a pretty good 3rd last week, the only one with pace at the end of the mile.
They draw today for Saturday, and he should get in.
I'll keep you posted.
   thumbs up  I will be watching for him, all the best,  Jim
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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2010, 03:03:31 PM »

if the guy that has the claimin doesnt want the horse after the scratch. you may have only a minute depending when hes scratched. the guy with the claim in must call the judges before the race starts.he can then void the claim. he doesnt call the judge he will own him. this has happened. one night noel daley has a claim in on a horse.before the race he colics in the paddock at the big m and has to go to new bolton. noel leaves thinking his claim is void. th nexy day new bolton call noel up to tell him his horse will be okay. noel says its not my horse. but it was because he didnt call the judges to void it before off time for that race. later that year croghan has  claim in on a horse called new bolton. campbell brings him off the track and say s he isjust to sore to go. croghan calls the judge  and asks him what are his options. the judge says the race is going il talk to you after the race and hangs up.  the race goes and now its a big mess because ross called the judge and he never got the chance to void it because the judge hung up on him. the original trainer kept the horse and the claim was voided.
If New Jersey would have followed USTA rules there would have been no problem.
USTA Rule  10 sub 3 j,
Title to the claimed horse shall be vested in the successful claimant from the time the word "go" is given.
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2010, 03:05:33 PM »

  thumbs up  I will be watching for him, all the best,  Jim
ON THE T BRED SIDE, WE HAVE OVEREXTENDED RACING IN THE 8TH RACE AT AQUEDUCT ON SATURDAY !!
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2010, 03:05:52 PM »

That's a good question Swoop.
To the best of my knowledge, once the judges have the claim, there's no way to void it.
If the horse dies on the track during the warmup, I think the claimant owns him.
Never seen it happen though.

The USTA rule says that the horse is the claiments once the word GO is given.  If the horse is scratched, you either can't have the horse or will have a choice to take him or not.  In Pa. you may claim the horse from any race for thirty days after the scratch.
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2010, 03:28:48 PM »

 In Pa. you may claim the horse from any race for thirty days after the scratch.
I am not clear on what you are saying.
Do you mean that if I have a claim in and the horse is scratched I may take the horse anytime in the next thirty days?
What if the horse wins his next two starts at a higher tag, can I still now say he is mine at the lesser money?
I don't think that can possibly be right.
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2010, 03:35:46 PM »

ON THE T BRED SIDE, WE HAVE OVEREXTENDED RACING IN THE 8TH RACE AT AQUEDUCT ON SATURDAY !!
 thumbs up
[/quote
John, How many horses do you currently have racing or in training and what are all their names? I have never owned a T/B, but I boarded some on my farm for T/B owners. The T/B is a beautiful animal, my favorite was a gun metal colored gelding that was turned out at our farm for a few months.....he was a real athlete.
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2010, 04:04:59 PM »

I ALMOST CLAIMED ONE, ALTHOUGH IT OCCURED TO ME, THE TRAINER DISCOVERED THERE WERE GOING TO BE MULTIPLE CLAIMS, AND SCRATCHED HIM FOR THAT REASON ALONE !!!!

WHAT ARE THE RULES IN YOUR STATE ??

A trainer can NOT scratch a horse after it has been entered in a race unless the horse is sick or something. But any way the claim is still good up to a time that the state has set....
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »

If New Jersey would have followed USTA rules there would have been no problem.
USTA Rule  10 sub 3 j,
Title to the claimed horse shall be vested in the successful claimant from the time the word "go" is given.
ok in this scenario in nj. the 4 horse is on the track there is  1 claim in on the 4, they are already post paraded and there  is 1 minute to post, the driver brings the horse off the track and says he is to lame to go. the vet scratches him. the race starts. and finishes.   Who owns the 4 horse?
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2010, 04:47:58 PM »

ok in this scenario in nj. the 4 horse is on the track there is  1 claim in on the 4, they are already post paraded and there  is 1 minute to post, the driver brings the horse off the track and says he is to lame to go. the vet scratches him. the race starts. and finishes.   Who owns the 4 horse?
The claimant.......the person who put in the claim.
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2010, 04:53:53 PM »

The claimant.......the person who put in the claim.
Correct just because the horse was scratched the claim was still valid. Now if that man that had put in he claim and called the judges before off time he could have voided the claim. but this had to be done before  off time for said race.
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM »

ok in this scenario in nj. the 4 horse is on the track there is  1 claim in on the 4, they are already post paraded and there  is 1 minute to post, the driver brings the horse off the track and says he is to lame to go. the vet scratches him. the race starts. and finishes.   Who owns the 4 horse?
As I interpret the USTA rules ,the original owner that entered the horse.
Rule 10 sec 3 m
The successful claimant may at his option, acquire ownership of the horse. He must exercise his opotion by 9:00 AM of the following day.
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2010, 05:17:21 PM »

Correct just because the horse was scratched the claim was still valid. Now if that man that had put in he claim and called the judges before off time he could have voided the claim. but this had to be done before  off time for said race.
I mean you no disrespect, but I sure would like to see a New J.  rule book. Anyone know if one is online?
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2010, 05:21:26 PM »

not in nj. if he claimant still wants the horse. he says nothing and after the race the horse is his. he must call the judges if he does not want the scratched horse and tell the judges so, to void the claim. this must be done by off time for said race. the failure to call the judges means you own the horse immeadiately after the race.
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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2010, 05:22:30 PM »

I mean you no disrespect, but I sure would like to see a New J.  rule book. Anyone know if one is online?
this very scenairo happened to me. i took my horse home.
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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 06:51:29 PM »

As I interpret the USTA rules ,the original owner that entered the horse.
Rule 10 sec 3 m
The successful claimant may at his option, acquire ownership of the horse. He must exercise his opotion by 9:00 AM of the following day.
That's the way it is in DE, if the horse can be brought to the track you must do so by 9:00am and the new trainer can look him over and decide if he wants the horse or not.
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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 07:15:41 PM »

That's the way it is in DE, if the horse can be brought to the track you must do so by 9:00am and the new trainer can look him over and decide if he wants the horse or not.

Now that's a hell of a deal. For sorry for the guy who got claimed and got scratched out of his last race then has to parade his horse in front of the new buyer. Great deal for the claimer.
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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 07:49:54 PM »

I mean you no disrespect, but I sure would like to see a New J.  rule book. Anyone know if one is online?
The NJ rule book is not available on line, You have to pay $15 to get a print copy of the rules from the NJRC.
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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2010, 08:06:10 PM »

Speaking of invalidating a claim, a few years ago I claimed a horse at Pocono Downs. When I'm in the race paddock waiting to pick the horse up after he gets done in the spit box, I get a call from the presiding judge. The PJ tells me he just found out the horse had been nerved. I told him I wanted the claim voided, because PA rules require the names of nerved horses to be posted in the race office, and this horse was not on the list (he hadn't been racing at Pocono and had just shipped in that night). The PJ refused to invalidate the claim despite the rule violation, so I'm stuck with the horse.

I got lucky. The horse won his first start for me, and was claimed back by the prior owner after his 2nd or 3rd start ( I can't recall which one) for me.

Unfortunately, the horse was not so lucky. I was told he died a few weeks later of an infection he acquired when the owner tried to nerve the horse yet again.
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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2010, 08:08:18 PM »

What is nerved? and before I get my balls busted I am not a horseman. I am here to learn when I can also.
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2010, 08:26:24 PM »

What is nerved? and before I get my balls busted I am not a horseman. I am here to learn when I can also.

"Nerving" is the cutting or removal of part of a nerve in a horse's front leg (the proper name of the procedure is posterior digital neurectomy). It's done to horses that are incurably lame due to navicular bone disease.
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2010, 08:33:19 PM »

"Nerving" is the cutting or removal of part of a nerve in a horse's front leg (the proper name of the procedure is posterior digital neurectomy). It's done to horses that are incurably lame due to navicular bone disease.

I had to look it up. Interesting. When I read about it it seems to be the humane thing to do.
There is a list of horses that have had this? what if your vet does this and it isn't reported? Is it an ethical thing? You are expected to tell if this happens?


http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/tha-nerving.shtml
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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2010, 08:34:02 PM »

I am not clear on what you are saying.
Do you mean that if I have a claim in and the horse is scratched I may take the horse anytime in the next thirty days?
What if the horse wins his next two starts at a higher tag, can I still now say he is mine at the lesser money?
I don't think that can possibly be right.
you do not have to have a claim in.  If a horse is scratched from a claiming race in Pa. you may claim him his next start for the original claiming price regardless of it being a claiming race or a conditioned race as long as that start is within 30 days of the scratched race .
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2010, 10:01:38 PM »

Here in IL i have had this happen to me twice with claiming a horse that was a late scratch or scratch.  Once I had the claim filled out and he was a scratch in the post parade. It was at Fairmount Park in a 6000 claimer and they brought him off the track state vet said hes a late scratch and the claim was voided no one every said a word only that the horse had to be a starter to be claimed and thats all that was said the next week he was in for 8000. Another time I went to claim one at Balmoral they accepted the claim etc and the horse was in an early race and when they gave the first round of scratches and changes he was scratched. I went back upstairs the stewards told me he was scratched before I even entered the claim so it was invalid as well....but this is IL so who knows
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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2010, 07:36:17 AM »

  Claiming rules defintely need to be clarified.
  Wasn't there an incident at PD last summer where the horse broke his leg behind the starting gate before the man said go?  Mullen's horse, claim voided, Mullen had to put the horse down?
   My understanding if a horse is scratched you can claim for original price tag from the next start only if it's at a PA track and within 30 days.  Not 3rd start if it's within the 30 days.

  But I clearly remember an incident from 40+ years ago when my father scratched a horse the owner did not want to lose.  Johnny DelGato (sp?) was the claimant.  Came to the barn the next morning rip-roaring pissed.  Big fight.  Horse stayed in our barn, despite the rule.  Owner gave my mother a gorgeous pearl ring for putting my father through the ordeal.  Like I said before, it's who you know and what kind of pull you have. 
  Don't remember but that may have been the owner we had for a brief time that was a Federal agent, FBI  lol 
   
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JBCSFL
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2010, 07:18:48 AM »

GG, here is the thread.  Jim
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »

just to clear some things up. lets say there is one minute to post and you have a claim in on the 4 horse  at the big m. the driver of the 4 brings him off the track and says hes lame , you got to scratch him. ok hes scratched lame. if you, the claimant, dont call the judges before off time of that race and tell them personally that you dont want the horse. you will own him after the race. just because he is scratched does not automatically void the claim in this situation.

The horse is not yours until the starter says go. Then he's your baby. In this case the claimant has the option to void the claim because the horse never started. That simple..However he still could take the horse, but who would want to!..He's NOT your horse until the gate folds in any situation. Just call and ask the USTA...But you do have options as the claimant in this case.
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2010, 03:26:10 PM »

thats what i said. i used the rules language. off time means the race has started or as you said when the starter says go
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2010, 03:35:44 PM »

if the guy that has the claimin doesnt want the horse after the scratch. you may have only a minute depending when hes scratched. the guy with the claim in must call the judges before the race starts.he can then void the claim. he doesnt call the judge he will own him. this has happened. one night noel daley has a claim in on a horse.before the race he colics in the paddock at the big m and has to go to new bolton. noel leaves thinking his claim is void. th nexy day new bolton call noel up to tell him his horse will be okay. noel says its not my horse. but it was because he didnt call the judges to void it before off time for that race. later that year croghan has  claim in on a horse called new bolton. campbell brings him off the track and say s he is just to sore to go. croghan calls the judge  and asks him what are his options. the judge says the race is going il talk to you after the race and hangs up.  the race goes and now its a big mess because ross called the judge and he never got the chance to void it because the judge hung up on him. the original trainer kept the horse and the claim was voided.
this was my horse that night. new bolton was his name. john brought him off the track and said he was too lame to go.  ross croghan had a claim in on him.  croghan called the judges and cami haughton said to ross, the race is going, il talk to you after the race and hung up.  the presideing judge didnt know the rule either.  now its a mess because ross tried to void the claim and cami blew him off. he never voided the claim but he wanted too. they brought the rule to show me in the spit box. technically a stink could have been raised over this. cami called my trainer the next day and thanked him for saving his ass. true story. thats how i know this rule in nj
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