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Author Topic: ok i got a million questions  (Read 4545 times)
juslearning
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« on: February 05, 2010, 10:22:01 PM »

ok.how do you determine hind end lameness.hocks,stifles ass.is jogging enuff?my old trainer said jugs were useless,is this true?where would i start with prerace?
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speed shop
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 11:59:57 PM »

If your old trainer told you jugs are useless, you did the right thing by firing him/her!
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juslearning
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 09:20:45 AM »

didnt fire him,he died.yhank you very much.
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 09:43:16 AM »

ok.how do you determine hind end lameness.hocks,stifles ass.is jogging enuff?my old trainer said jugs were useless,is this true?where would i start with prerace?

I was told by a well-respected vet that jugs were a waste of money.  He said blood shots were better.  Just remember "all things in moderation".  Too much of anything is not good and will lead to more problems.  
Training horses is mostly common sense.  Feed good quality feed and hay.  Take blood counts on a regular basis (not just when a horse races bad).  Use a good vit/min supplement (I switched from Red Cell to Propel on the advice of a btw poster and like it better, but everyone has their own preference.)  I like to supplement with Propel, electrolytes, a good joint supplement, and calcium.  I'll add other supplements depending on each horse's individual needs.
Check out www.basicnutritionusa.com  

As far as hind-end lameness, most STB are sore behind.  You're taking an animal engineered to spend the majority of their time with their heads down grazing.  You check them up, use racebikes that throw all the weight on the hind end, and ask them to pull at extreme speed.  For daily maintenance, massage their hocks with a warming linament like sweat-it.  Stifle weakness will lead to stifle (and hock) soreness.  A horse who is weak or already sore in the stifles will knuckle over when jogging. Will also drag the hind leg, look for the shoes wearing at the toe.  For that matter monitor all 4 shoe wear all the time.  Common sense:  the muscles stabilize the joints, so look to build those muscles.  
Get yourself a good blacksmith and a good vet.  They can help you more than an internet forum.
For pre-race advice, you'll have to ask someone else.  Not my area.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 08:34:51 AM by OGM » Report to moderator   Logged

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OldGreyMare
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2010, 09:50:02 AM »

If you scroll down on this forum, you'll find the answers to just about any question you have.  You'll even learn things you didn't know you didn't know.  I grew up in the business, been around horses 52 years and I still read everything I can get my hands on (and that includes magazines on every equine discipline out there), watch videos (RFD-TV chock full of info), and attend Horse Expos (one coming up Feb 25-28 at Harrisburg) clinics and seminars.
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juslearning
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2010, 07:23:02 PM »

I was told by a well-respected vet that jugs were a waste of money.  He said blood shots were better.  Just remember "all things in moderation".  Too much of anything is not good and will lead to more problems. 
Training horses is mostly common sense.  Feed good quality feed and hay.  Take blood counts on a regular basis (not just when a horse races bad).  Use a good vit/min supplement (I switched from Red Cell to Propel on the advice of a btw poster and like it better, but everyone has their own preference.)  I like to supplement with Propel, electrolytes, a good joint supplement, and calcium.  I'll add other supplements depending on each horse's individual needs.
Check out www.basicnutritionusa.com 

As far as hind-end lameness, most STB are sore behind.  You're taking an animal engineered to spend the majority of their time with their heads down grazing.  You check them up, use racebikes that throw all the weight on the hind end, and ask them to pull at extreme speed.  For daily maintenance, massage their hocks with a warming linament like sweat-it.  Stifle weakness will lead to stifle (and hock) soreness.  A horse who is weak or already sore in the stifles will knuckle over when jogging. Will also drag the hind leg, look for the shoes wearing at the toe.  For that matter monitor all 4 shoe wear all the time.  Common sense:  the muscles stabilize the joints, so look to build those muscles.   
Get yourself a good blacksmith and a good vet.  They can help you more than an internet forum.
For pre-race advice, you'll have to ask someone else.  Not my area.
what the heck is a bloodshot?
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OldGreyMare
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2010, 07:44:51 PM »

  If you don't know that, then you better quit right now, 'cause it sounds like you don't know anything.  Find someone else to take care of those horses before you completely ruin them.  If you're serious about learning, get a job as a groom with a respected trainer and learn from the bottom up like the rest of us did. 
Horse Racing:  lazy, stupid people need not apply.
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juslearning
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2010, 07:49:23 PM »

now im lazy and stupid cause i dont know what a bloodshot is?
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tankin
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 07:51:21 PM »

maybe i call it something different.but im not sure i even know what a bloodshot is.
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samstar
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 08:12:34 PM »

now im lazy and stupid cause i dont know what a bloodshot is?
Keep on asking questions.


"I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew):
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.
I send them over land and sea,
I send them east and west;
But after they have worked for me,
I give them all a rest."

R. Kipling  The Elephants Child
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swoopdaddy
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 08:19:13 PM »

maybe i call it something different.but im not sure i even know what a bloodshot is.
b 12 complex, cacco copper, vitamans that help build red blood cells, and there are no stupid questions just stupid mistakes. but ogm advice is sound. go work for a respected trainer and keep your eyes and ears open
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samstar
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 08:20:50 PM »

now im lazy and stupid cause i dont know what a bloodshot is?

Questions are the answer!  Ask a question, shut up and listen, ask another question.  Soon
you will be the one answering the questions.

I remember asking a trainer follow up question and he told me that he had forgotten more than I know.  (Under my breath I said, "that is obvious".}
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samstar
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2010, 08:22:32 PM »

b 12 complex, cacco copper, vitamans that help build red blood cells, and there are no stupid questions just stupid mistakes. but ogm advice is sound. go work for a respected trainer and keep your eyes and ears open

Hemo 15 or new cells are all inclusive blood shots.  hipp iron also can be part of a blood shot.
 
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samstar
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 08:28:40 PM »

now im lazy and stupid cause i dont know what a bloodshot is?

Keep the questions coming.  You will sharpen all of our skills by making us think.  That is the whole purpose of this forum. Don't let anyone put you down.  We all started knowing nothing.
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juslearning
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2010, 08:55:03 PM »

yeak ok i know what that stuff is,i put it all in my jugs.i just have never heard of it refered to as blood shots.seemed like ogm was willing to help this morning and a little rude this evening.oh well she probably had a long day,no biggy.
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 09:32:58 PM »

There are articles on the USTA web site about conducting a soundess examination.  Don't forget to check all joints for temperture dfferentials.  Also any swelling or filling and any changes from day to day. As your vet to go through a soundness examinaton with you explaining each step.  The vet will love to show you how good he is and will enjoy teaching you.  Remember that you make a friend by getting somebody to do a favor for you , not doing a favor for someone else. 
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 11:21:50 PM »

If you don't already have them, go to EBAY and buy a copy of the old and a copy of the new Care and Training of The Pacer and Trotter. You can follow that up with a copy of NJhorseman's book on Owning Winning Standardbreds.
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I am just an old "Hoss" trainer, that has been raced hard and put away wet. 
As my Friend from Maine(Ora Stratton) says "There are horse trainers, and then there are real "Hoss" trainers.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 08:34:55 AM »

Actually I had a good day at the barn yesterday.  I've been down this road before with trolls asking increasingly stupid questions and wasting my time.  One of TC's favorite games.  Come to think of it, I've been down this road face to face with real people, too, usually when I'm smack-dab in the middle of working with a recalcitrant horse.  You all know the type of person I'm referring to.  I now tell them if they want a personal clinic, they can pay for it.  Otherwise, shut up and observe...   
I've seen too many horses ruined by ignorant people.  Riding horses and racehorses.  For the welfare of the horses, I strongly suggest this person find someone knowledgable to supervise him.
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 10:15:56 AM »

Just learning i think the concern is that while you admitted to being unsure of how to even  diagnose lameness and if jogging is "enough" along with asking about preracing the only part of the long answer you were given that seemed an interest to you, the only part of the post to which you responded, was wanting more info about what came out of a needle.  That's what made it seem as though you were more interested in shortcuts than learning basic horsemanship.

However I have observed it is human nature to respond primarily to the first sentence of a post.  Just like it is human nature during a real time discussion to hear only the last thing a person says and respond to it.  So I will wait and see what the tenor of your possible subsequent questions might reveal.

I don't mind being asked my advice until the person asking starts then arguing with what I tell them.  But then that would be when I was specifically sought out.  Then I will tell them if they only asked me so they had someone to argue with about it they can move on.    Don't know if I would feel differently if the person paid me for the information/advice.


 Also don't know how to feel about answering open appeals on a message board and then debating them so I guess that's why I don't.



 
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OldGreyMare
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 10:35:43 AM »

Just learning i think the concern is that while you admitted to being unsure of how to even  diagnose lameness and if jogging is "enough" along with asking about preracing the only part of the long answer you were given that seemed an interest to you, the only part of the post to which you responded, was wanting more info about what came out of a needle.   That's what made it seem as though you were more interested in shortcuts than learning basic horsemanship.

 

  Great minds think alike.  That was exactly what got my hackles up.
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samstar
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2010, 11:17:29 AM »

Just learning i think the concern is that while you admitted to being unsure of how to even  diagnose lameness and if jogging is "enough" along with asking about preracing the only part of the long answer you were given that seemed an interest to you, the only part of the post to which you responded, was wanting more info about what came out of a needle.  That's what made it seem as though you were more interested in shortcuts than learning basic horsemanship.

However I have observed it is human nature to respond primarily to the first sentence of a post.  Just like it is human nature during a real time discussion to hear only the last thing a person says and respond to it.  So I will wait and see what the tenor of your possible subsequent questions might reveal.


I don't mind being asked my advice until the person asking starts then arguing with what I tell them.  But then that would be when I was specifically sought out.  Then I will tell them if they only asked me so they had someone to argue with about it they can move on.    Don't know if I would feel differently if the person paid me for the information/advice.


 Also don't know how to feel about answering open appeals on a message board and then debating them so I guess that's why I don't.



 

I don't mind being questioned or asked to substantiate my advice.  Sometimes the substance isn't there and I learn to reevaluate my position.  I am so excited about the new things that I am learning every day and I have been in the business for 35 years. 
You guys remind me of the liberal college professors who give you a "D" because you don't accept that Carter was the best president ever.  I love a person that says "I don't know" .
The whole reason for forums like this is to pursue and share knowledge.  I consider myself close to being an expert on many of these topics but I still can be schooled on all of them. Hit me with your best punch.  The main thing is that when it is all over the person who was right prevails. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 11:28:57 AM »

I don't mind being questioned or asked to substantiate my advice. 

I guess I was thinking more about the art part of handling horses than the science of it.  More specifically i was thinking of an instance where I was asked my advice on how to introduce new horses to each other in order to turn them out together. I told the person the procedure I would normally use and they proceed to tell me how this other person said to do it this way and this other person said to do it that way and how they thought they should do it yet another way. 

My response was so why did you ask me?  Are you just pestering people until you find someone who will tell you what you want to hear?  Go ahead, do it your way.

I wonder if people are less inclinded to do that if they pay for the lesson/advice?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 11:34:45 AM by fairgame » Report to moderator   Logged
samstar
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 11:45:26 AM »

I guess I was thinking more about the art part of handling horses than the science of it.  More specifically i was thinking of an instance where I was asked my advice on how to introduce new horses to each other in order to turn them out together. I told the person the procedure I would normally use and they proceed to tell me how this other person said to do it this way and this other person said to do it that way and how they thought they should do it yet another way. 

My response was so why did you ask me?  Are you just pestering people until you find someone who will tell you what you want to hear?  Go ahead, do it your way.

I wonder if people are less inclinded to do that if they pay for the lesson/advice?

Boy did you hit the nail on the head.
As with most professions, there is an art and a science to racing horses.  If you master one without the other, you will just do alright.

When I introduce a new horse to the "herd", As I release the horse I start yelling and waving my arms and chasing.  The new horse runs off with the others and they have a  common predator to be wary of, me.  By the time they settle down the horse is part of the herd. Told some others about this method and they seem to like it.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »

Hmmmm well I can think of some potential problems that could be created by that method but I will keep my comments to myself LOL.  Glad it works for you
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samstar
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 02:39:30 PM »

To me it is fun to watch them all go trotting off together including the newbie.  No problems so far.
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