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Author Topic: Fridays figures  (Read 3952 times)
BeauNarro
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« on: March 03, 2006, 06:32:21 PM »

Well it's still not getting there. Here are the numbers for Friday (today)

Live:       $138,942.00
Offtrack: $1,846,555.00
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2006, 08:08:01 PM »

Well it's still not getting there. Here are the numbers for Friday (today)

Live:       $138,942.00
Offtrack: $1,846,555.00

Last year:

Live: $171,073  -$32,131
Offtrack: $1,801,162 +$45,393

I still say it's probably one or two guys who have abandoned betting on-track and gone elsewhere but still bet on Hawthorne. I bet Hawthorne knows exactly who it was. I bet there's readers/posters here who could tell us who it was, if they were so inclined.

The real question is, how much were those missing guys also pumping through the windows on other track simulcasts but not now. That's the real problem with making judgements based on the Equibase chart numbers - you don't know what's happening with the full-card simulcast numbers, and that's 85% of business in Illinois.
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robertv
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2006, 09:43:28 PM »

Terry -

No need to be an apologist for Hawthorne........are you compensated for such unmitigated support??

I look forward to going out there Sunday to see some live racing - I know I'll have a good time,
win or lose - Hawthorne "is what it is" - and that's just fine with me. Smiley
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 09:48:45 PM by robertv » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2006, 10:37:45 PM »

No need to be an apologist for Hawthorne

Posting real figures, instead of unsubstantiated and ill-informed baloney like most people post here, is being an "apologist"?

Never did like that word. It only means "defend" in the dictionary defininition, but sounds so sorry, like the person so accused was guilty of making apologies for something universally known to be wrong, but that isn't what it means at all. Are you and John Frank and APCD Dan "apologists" for Trackside and Arlington, if I say anything bad about them and you make a counter argument, robertv? Like if I say, "Trackside sucks", and you say, "No it doesn't" - that makes you an apologist, I guess.
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big wally
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2006, 11:10:38 PM »

Great, this years numbers and last years numbers are comparable. This means one thing last year sucked too. Since the late 90's the early part of March has had small fields and the racing sucked then and sucks now. Have fun see you in April.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2006, 11:38:49 PM »

Great, this years numbers and last years numbers are comparable. This means one thing last year sucked too. Since the late 90's the early part of March has had small fields and the racing sucked then and sucks now. Have fun see you in April.

There you go, last year sucked, too. It did, it was down from the previous year. A man who knows numbers only mean something in the context of what has come before.

Fields have been small for Spring Sportsman's as long as I can remember. These days they are small for summer Arlington, too. Only time we get decent fields in Chicago is Fall Hawthorne.

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Jim C
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 01:28:05 AM »

Maybe I have been in a different state for the last 10 years or so but I do not understand why anyone would be surprised that the numbers at Sportsthorne are the same or a bit less than last year. This has been going on for years now. Here is an idea, so go and have fun and bet! What the numbers are doesn't mean a thing right now except to show a consitant trend for all of Illinois racing for the last few years. What has changed for anyone to think the numbers would be up? Its March in Chicago and racing has always been sub-par this time of year. If you want it to be better tell those "leaders" on the ITHA Board to start racing in April, the purses would be higher and the races would fill better. Until that happens get use to this trend as it will continue.

And Terry you are right pointing out facts and figures doesn't make you an apologist for anyone. The numbers are what they are.
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nwaryas
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 01:30:46 AM »

Hawthorne is DEAD on a Friday ever since they stopped that beer promotion. I was there today. I saw Tom Carey Sr. He looks good and still has his memory.
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John Frank
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 01:35:56 AM »

Who Gives a SHIT. You live with what you got. And if you don't like you play simulcast elsewhere. That's what the whole idea was about. Oppurtunity to make selections at a variety of tracks. Spend your dollar where you please. BUT DON'T SIT ON YOUR LAZY ASS AND PLAY AT HOME AT OFFSHORE SITES.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2006, 01:39:18 AM »

Hawthorne is DEAD on a Friday ever since they stopped that beer promotion. I was there today. I saw Tom Carey Sr. He looks good and still has his memory.

Maybe now that Chef Bob Andreas quit today-who was in charge of decision making for the concessions and bars also, maybe they'll bring back the $1.00 Fan Friendly Fridays' with the Jumbo hot dogs, 20oz beers, popcorn, and programs. It certainly drew alot of hearty drunks who bet alot..LOL!
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 02:00:18 AM »

Maybe now that Chef Bob Andreas quit today-who was in charge of decision making for the concessions and bars also, maybe they'll bring back the $1.00 Fan Friendly Fridays' with the Jumbo hot dogs, 20oz beers, popcorn, and programs. It certainly drew alot of hearty drunks who bet alot..LOL!

Why did he quit? Were the suits putting pressure on him to cut costs, like using cheaper materials? I don't know if there really is a lower grade of hot dog than those little ones that turn up some days. 
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big wally
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2006, 08:05:31 AM »

Who Gives a SHIT. You live with what you got. And if you don't like you play simulcast elsewhere. That's what the whole idea was about. Oppurtunity to make selections at a variety of tracks. Spend your dollar where you please. BUT DON'T SIT ON YOUR LAZY ASS AND PLAY AT HOME AT OFFSHORE SITES.

Your Right.But,Why shouldn't bettors bet offshore. The tracks had a monopoly on our gambling dollar till the early 80"s and took their bettors for granted. There were very few if any promotions for the the fans they basically had a license to print money. If someone wants to to get a better bang for their buck, I say let em.

Purses are now 17%  (nationwide) subsidized by non-track revenue, in five to ten years in may approach 50% if track owners get their way. Why work? Since our grand daddy's had a license to run a race track in the early 20th century gives us the right to go to Springfield and ask for Handouts when our business goes bad. What a life......
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Jim C
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2006, 02:15:13 PM »

The reason no one should bet offshore is very simple. YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE DEATH OF THE GAME YOU SAY YOU LOVE AND ENJOY. You mention that the track owners are greedy. Aren't you also being greedy if you bet off shore for more money then what you would get betting on track and having that money flow through the right channels that would support the game? Those offshore sites have no overhead at all and therefore no track would ever be able to compete with them.

 I do get tired of hearing about how the horsemen and track owners are so greedy. Both the track owners and the horsemen have overhead and costs that we all have to cover. The fan does not. The fan is supporting the game by betting on horses we owners supply at a venue that track owners provide. Now if wanting to make a profit is being greedy then yes, I am damn greedy as are the tracks. But it seems to me those who are complaining about what the tracks do are the ones looking for hand outs. Free admission, free parking, cheap food and drinks, free programs and full fields of horses that owners have to buy, train and race while competing against offshore sites with no overhead or other tracks that have slots or other revenue inflows ( your so called subsidies, hand outs or free money) that we do not.

You would rather we race less days thus allowing owners and trainers less opportunities to earn money and less days for the tracks to do so as well. While I have said that we do need to race less days, I mean cutting out at most 3-4 weeks (15-20 days) having a meet like Saratoga at AP would not help as that would be far too short to support the horsemen here. Remember when you compare racing here to NY you really need to add PA,NJ,MD,DE,VA and WVA as all those states together provide an opportunity for year around racing within a relatively short distance. Not so here.

But back to the main point, go ahead and keep betting those offshore sites, but realize you are helping kill off the sport of racing and doing so for your own profit.
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David
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2006, 02:38:03 PM »

Jim C, you have no problem with track owners or horse owners being called "greedy" if that means that they want to make money on thier investment. I would agree totally with that - never begrudge anybody a return on thier investment or time.

What I won't agree with you is that you think it is so wrong for the bettor/fan to be "greedy", if you bet seriously you are investing a great deal of capital, and you are also investing a great deal, if not all of, your time to the venture. Not to seek out and employ the best return for your investment would be assinine. I realize you don't understand that - you probably never will - you just don't understand what it is to gamble seriously - not that I mean that as a cutdown  - you are in the game on a different angle and don't understand the gamblers needs. I said it before and I'll say it again without the gamblers you and your rich friends will be running your horses for bragging rights at Mr. D's farm or in Aiken, take your pick.

This isn't going to get better, by the way, Racing needs to revise it's cost structure to the gambler or it will have to live off of slot "welfare" or go away. Betting exchanges are bound to take a tighter grip in this country - it will make the rebate flight look like a drop of water in the ocean.
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2006, 02:56:04 PM »

Free admission, free parking, cheap food and drinks, free programs

Sounds like the river boats or LV casinos. Not to mention other comps. Rooms, limos, etc. Our unsubsidized compettition. If our local track owners don't want to compete, they should sell the business to someone who wants to instead of going begging in Springfield. If our owners/horsemen can't make a living they should get out of the business just like other unsuccessful ventures. No one owes them a living.

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edwarren
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 04:01:00 PM »

Here's my take on the onshore-offshore thing. It's gotten very bad, so bad they don't care WHERE you gamble, as long as you keep gambling.
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big wally
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2006, 04:10:25 PM »

JIM C, if you took away the rebates shops the big bettors will leave the game. It will die on its own anyway. Racing has had problems before the rebate shops. People who bet offshore are NOT killing the game, the game is dead because the public could care less. Yeah you have the people who show up for the triple crown and a half dozen other days. So what?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 04:59:49 PM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
BeauNarro
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2006, 05:18:10 PM »

Who here bets on offshore? I never have. I have bet on Hawthorne or Arlington on Youbet if I can't make it to the track, but that's not an offshore account as far as I know. The tracks still get a piece of that the same as if I went to a parlor.

Until the merger in Stickney, Hawthorne did quite well. I don't know why they now can't pay their bills(well I do but no one wants to be beat to death on it here). Granted the tracks lost alot of PROFIT with the advent of riverboats and lottery, but they were still able to pay out good dividends to family members every year for many many years. However, that is their right in doing business. It's up to horsemen's organizations like the ITHA, IHHA, ITBOF to help protect the interests of the racehorse owners, trainers and breeders to keep a balance between them and the track owners.
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big wally
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2006, 05:24:28 PM »

Someone here may know more and they probably do. Most rebate shops money finds its way in the pool one way or another. I think but do not know if you bet on You BET or Off Shore the track still gets 3%.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2006, 06:06:44 PM »

I recently heard that almost all of the major outlets like New York, California and Florida only pay 2% through negotiation to Hawthorne and the rest are 3 to 3.5%. If that's true - hell - that's not very much.
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David
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2006, 06:21:08 PM »

Who here bets on offshore? I never have. I have bet on Hawthorne or Arlington on Youbet if I can't make it to the track, but that's not an offshore account as far as I know. The tracks still get a piece of that the same as if I went to a parlor.

Until the merger in Stickney, Hawthorne did quite well. I don't know why they now can't pay their bills(well I do but no one wants to be beat to death on it here). Granted the tracks lost alot of PROFIT with the advent of riverboats and lottery, but they were still able to pay out good dividends to family members every year for many many years. However, that is their right in doing business. It's up to horsemen's organizations like the ITHA, IHHA, ITBOF to help protect the interests of the racehorse owners, trainers and breeders to keep a balance between them and the track owners.

Beau, it is illegal to bet on youbet.com in Illinois according to the Illinois Attorney General opinion - anyways., I saw you reccomend it before and as an owner i would think you wouldn't want to do that or at least admit it in an open forum. Certainly not while at the same time you make a point to mention declining on track handle every day.

As far as revenue it is probably the same as if you went to Merrilville and made a bet, that is bet at an out of state OTB.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2006, 06:27:12 PM »

David,
It's not the first law I've ever broken. I'm sure you never have though.

But I have a question for you. How much do you bet per day on average and/or your yearly average?
Also, do you bet on track?
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David
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2006, 06:37:41 PM »

I split 2 dollar bets with my group of friends, always on track as to suport local purses. I always cross with the light, never inhale, drive 55 and overpay my taxes.
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big wally
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2006, 06:44:26 PM »

Beau, it is illegal to bet on youbet.com in Illinois according to the Illinois Attorney General opinion - anyways., I saw you reccomend it before and as an owner i would think you wouldn't want to do that or at least admit it in an open forum. Certainly not while at the same time you make a point to mention declining on track handle every day.

As far as revenue it is probably the same as if you went to Merrilville and made a bet, that is bet at an out of state OTB.

I believe it is illegal to bet on Illinois Races  if you live in Illinois. If you bet tracks in other states and live in Illinois the law is open to interpretation.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2006, 06:49:55 PM »

I split 2 dollar bets with my group of friends, always on track as to suport local purses. I always cross with the light, never inhale, drive 55 and overpay my taxes.

LMAO - well then you really are a saint!
It's good to see you bet almost $500 bucks a year. Good for you!
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David
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2006, 07:04:18 PM »

I believe it is illegal to bet on Illinois Races  if you live in Illinois. If you bet tracks in other states and live in Illinois the law is open to interpretation.

This is the standing "interpretation" and unless challenged with a test case (maybe Beua will vollunteer) it will be treated as law

http://www.ag.state.il.us/opinions/2001/01-010.html
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2006, 07:07:21 PM »


Yeah Yeah..I know. So hang me! LOL
David,
Will you be at Hawthorne tomorrow Monday? I'll buy ya a beer or soda if you are.
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big wally
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2006, 07:12:05 PM »

This is the standing "interpretation" and unless challenged with a test case (maybe Beua will vollunteer) it will be treated as law

http://www.ag.state.il.us/opinions/2001/01-010.html

Good Luck, Beau. The fact YOU BET and other do take Illinois Wager shows how much faith the State has in their opinion.
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David
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2006, 07:12:51 PM »

Beau, no I won't be able to make it down - but an offer constitutes a buy in my world - so I owe you a cold one at a later time.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2006, 07:21:44 PM »

Good Luck, Beau. The fact YOU BET and other do take Illinois Wager shows how much faith the State has in their opinion.

True dat wally. But HEY! Don't go running away with this. I only bet there on Hawthorne or Arlington if I can't make it to the track, and there's  a bet that I just can't pass up. Personally I'm not fond of it, because it lacks the drama and excitement of a live race. Plus it's great seeing all my friends and characters that roam the tracks.
Hawthorne and Arlington permits Youbet to carry their signal. The Johnson family does not.
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2006, 12:45:35 AM »

David says: What I won't agree with you is that you think it is so wrong for the bettor/fan to be "greedy", if you bet seriously you are investing a great deal of capital, and you are also investing a great deal, if not all of, your time to the venture. Not to seek out and employ the best return for your investment would be asinine. I realize you don't understand that - you probably never will - you just don't understand what it is to gamble seriously - not that I mean that as a cutdown  - you are in the game on a different angle and don't understand the gamblers needs. I said it before and I'll say it again without the gamblers you and your rich friends will be running your horses for bragging rights at Mr. D's farm or in Aiken, take your pick.
 
 I am not saying you shouldn't get your best bang for your buck, but it seems to me to make no sense at all to bet in a way that harms the game you are betting on as the offshore rebate houses do. Again, with no overhead the offshore sites can give a lot back in perks that the tracks could never do. So basically those who do bet offshore are raping the game for their own profit. If you cannot see that point then it only because of your own greed that you seem to be unable to see past, and I didn't mean that as a cut down either, just seems like you are trying to get MORE return at the expense of the horsemen and tracks. By the way if I were rich, I wouldn't care as much about the purses either.

Wally you keep saying the game is dying on its own yet the numbers do not support your claim. If you look at the figures from the NTRA the fan base has grown each year for the past 5 years or so. Wagering is up as well. We just need to get those off shore wagers back into the revenue stream that helps racing not hurts it. Finally it seems that the Federal Government may be ready to do something about that too by making it illegal for any bank or phone/on line company to be used to place an offshore bet as well as making it illegal for any bet in the US except for racing.

As far as the casinos giving things away. (this argument always make me laugh because its such a silly comparacent) Once again there is no way a track could come close to what the casinos give away and anyone with any business sense should realize that fact. Casinos have far more games and ways to wager do bring in money then any race track would ever have. Most casinos live on slot machines, Most everything else is gravy. They are open 24hrs a day 365 days a year and you play against the house. NONE of that exists at a race track. At a casino you are given free drinks to get you drunk so you bet more and stupidly, you are given rooms and meals to make sure you stay there and bet there and no where else. Oh and one more thing, no one, no matter what they may say ever beats the casino I don't care how much of a whale you may be sooner or later they end up with your money. Again not so in racing. Now if you want a track to give things away like a casino you will have to let them operate like one too. But then we hear cries of how racing will be sold out and forgotten. Once again you cant have it both ways.

The solution is still in the customers hands. Want the product to improve, then SUPPORT the product not just when its good for you but all the time. Want track owners to hear your voice, go to the track so they can see and hear you otherwise your opinion means nothing. Want Illinois racing to grow and improve then BET Illinois racing. Betting on line or offshore and then just complaining about how things are here will do nothing at all to improve anything.
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2006, 01:09:32 AM »

Jim thats a bad argument. You can't expect bettors to do "what's for the good of the game". They are going to do, as a class, "what's good for me". For God's sake we can't even get horsemen to not bet through account services, and that's been a problem for a long time - I remember reading something written by you in an ITHA newsletter back in 1995 or 1996 about that very thing.

Yes, it is stupid and shortsighted, but people always put their own interests first. Like horsemen. Few enough say, "Well, I don't think I'm going to juice this horse, that would be good for the game." More like, "What can I do to win without getting caught?" I don't put horses in races just to create betting interests, which would be good for the game, I wait until the exact right race for my horse comes along, or something reasonably close. Horsemen don't run a reasonable season, which would be good for Illinois racing, they run one that makes life easy on them so they don't have to travel around like gypsies. So on and so on and so on. You can't ask bettors to make sacrifices and leave money on the table, when it's obvious to them no one in the game is operating "for the good of racing".

The trick is to find some way to harness bettors' natural tendency to put themselves first, in this day and age of options, instead of relying on the old, out-moded monopoly model, where it was your way or the highway. And it's some trick to do that, don't get me wrong.
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2006, 01:22:12 AM »

Point taken, I am just saying that betting offshore is just helping to kill the game.
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2006, 01:25:44 AM »

Jim, you are confusing to me you admonish Wally for saying the game is dying, claim that the sport is healthy and state some ntra press release -  then say that betting offshore is killing the game. Which is it, is the game robust and growing or being killed off by selfish gamblers?
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2006, 03:10:08 AM »

Its not a news release from the NTRA but year end figures taken from polling they have done with sports fans for the last 5 years or more. The fan base is building but obviously the betting is not growing as some top players (as Wally points out) are not betting through the normal channels. Also more people are more aware and have shown some interest in the game since the NTRA began to promote it and have more races on TV.

 The point I was making to Wally is that offshore betting is helping to kill the game by draining money from the sport. They are nothing more than parasites feeding off the money others spend and invest in the sport.Wally maintains that the game is dying on its own, I am saying its not but that this constant drain of cash to the offshore sites is what will kill off the game. Not less fans or even less betting as those who are betting offshore are still in fact betting on the game.

So the answer to your question oddly enough is yes to both. The fan base is growing but the betting has not grown with it as most new fans do not bet as much as those "older pros" who are now moving to the offshore sites. If that trend continues it will kill off the game as there will not be enough money to fill the gap between the new smaller players and the whales that are betting out of the loop.
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2006, 07:21:04 AM »

JIM C, the Big Bettors will not come back without rebates and I am talking 10%. Without them they wont bet if you thing they will, well that is your opinion. I can not see the game being Healthy overall. NYRA Loses money, Magna Loses Money, they may close Hollywood and/or Bay Meadows.

This contradicts your statement about the state of racing. Fan base is not building.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=32085

Why don't the tracks just cut off these rebate shops? Most of the wagers are layed off in the pools, just audit the money trail.
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« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2006, 10:18:51 AM »

As far as the casinos giving things away. (this argument always make me laugh because its such a silly comparacent) Once again there is no way a track could come close to what the casinos give away and anyone with any business sense should realize that fact.

Laugh all you want. The casinos are in direct competition with racing for the gaming dollar. The racing industry could learn a lot about customer service from the casinos. I'm not talking only about the give aways but more about recognizing their customer. Anyone with any business sense knows the importance of customer service and appreciation.

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« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2006, 02:13:25 PM »

Wally, that article supports what I was saying. Handle is down BECAUSE OF THE OFF SHORE SITES. No where in that article does it say the fan base is not growing or that the public is not more aware of racing today then it was 5 or 10 years ago. I do agree that all of those sites should be cut off and cut off now. The government is moving in that direction now, but the ITHA could do so right now by cutting off the signal.

Ed, yes racing is in competition with the betting dollar. But my argument there is that most people who bet on the horses do not like betting at a casino because it is a losing proposition as the house almost always wins, and play long enough and they always win. MOST horseplayers know that betting on the horses gives you a much better shot at winning money if you do your homework. I do not know one person who goes to a casino because they get free parking, free drinks or anything else. They go there for entertainment only.

Racing as I have said over and over again can never compete with a casino as they are totally different business models, the only thing they have in common is that gambling takes place at both venues. It like comparing football to baseball both are sports, but the business models are completely different.

One point we do agree on and I have said this before as well, customer service for the fan and the horse owner could be and should be improved greatly at both the tracks here. Nothing can ever replace that personal touch, knowing peoples names when possible, making people feel welcome etc. and neither track does a good enough job in this area. But trying to match toe to toe what the casinos can do just isn't possible unless they are suddenly regulated the same way.
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big wally
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« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2006, 02:29:50 PM »

Illinois can not be alone in cutting off these shops, if they do their handle will plummet, the bettors will bet elsewhere. It has to done industry wide and even then you are taking a huge gamble that these bettors will continue to wager. The tracks are scared to cut them off.

I will stand on belief that the fan base is not increasing but decreasing use any figures you want I  have been to the OTB's and the track and I do not see it.
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« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2006, 06:52:48 PM »

Jim C. in a few previous posts that I had started and replied to, I talked about the customer service factor. IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. I have a good friend who used to bet on the Mezzanine floor with a consortium of fellow gamblers. At one point several years ago there were about 6 to 8 guys every day. His name was Bob P. If any of you know people that regularly freguented Hawthorne - you know who I'm talking about. They bet BIG bets by pooling their money on exotic bets, and they also bet alot on their own. They also won quite a bit..large amounts. Over the last 3 years one less came out, then three less, then 5 less, and now none of them. They all now go to Maywood's Players Club and to a few OTB's. WHY? Because they got upset that the place wasn't being cleaned as well. When they arrived in the late morning they had to wipe off their seats, clear last days programs, cups, ashtrays from the night before. They complained that the Mezzanine bathroom always smells like stale urine. A few also asked for over 1 year for free VIP passes, but to no avail even though a few of the other guys got them. So, now they don't go to Hawthorne anymore.
When I was at the track today it was really dead. I would compare the amount of people to a Saturday heavy snow simulcast day. It was that bad. There was not 1 person at either first floor concession stand three different times when I walked past them. It's really kinda scary.
When I went to the windows to make my bets over the few races that I was there..there was NO waiting at all. In fact there were several mutual clecks with no customers in front of them. This is what the tracks are facing right now. It's dire straits to the third degree.
I bet my customary $500 bucks(over 3 races)..my horse came in third(but I hit the trifecta, and 100 to show)..I stopped by Tim Carey's office on the way in and on the way out to talk to him about some of the things I've seen there, and to say howdy. Unfortunately he was somewhere else in the building.
I was hoping ClockerTerry would come down to say "Hi", but he never showed up, so I had to buy my buddy Roy(the bathroom attendant-1st floor clubhouse) a beer instead..LOL
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« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2006, 07:23:44 PM »

JIM C, the Big Bettors will not come back without rebates and I am talking 10%. Without them they wont bet if you thing they will, well that is your opinion. I can not see the game being Healthy overall. NYRA Loses money, Magna Loses Money, they may close Hollywood and/or Bay Meadows.



not all racing facilities lose money. The big M cleans up every year and monmouth shows a profit every year. Now how can the BIG M and monmouth do what the NYRA and Magna can't?
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« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2006, 07:41:16 PM »

not all racing facilities lose money. The big M cleans up every year and monmouth shows a profit every year. Now how can the BIG M and monmouth do what the NYRA and Magna can't?

1.) the "subsidy/extortion" they get from the casinos

or

2.) the limited meets they run
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big wally
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« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2006, 07:50:50 PM »

Churchill properties show a profit and that includes Arlington.  Don't know about the other Illinois tracks since they are privately held
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« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2006, 08:46:59 AM »

Not all online wagering sites are hosted offshore.  I personally wager on HAW races through AmericaTab's winticket.com.  According to Americatab:

"As a partnership of racetracks, AmericaTab is committed to benefiting live racing. A portion of all interactive and telephone wagers are returned to our track partners. Local horsemen also receive a percentage of wagers through the system for their purse accounts."

Heck, if I could make to the track to view the live races I would but with a job and familiy it is virtually impossible to do.  If it were not for Americatab I would not wager nearly as much as I do today (just about every racing day). 

One thought about on-track attendance:  Has anyone considered jumping on the poker bandwagon and organizing a poker tournament at the track?  A local church in my neighborhood has one every now and then and it seems to be successful.  Why not have one at the track?  There is plenty of space, the sport is popular with the younger crowd which racing needs to attract and if anything more concessions would be sold.  There doesn't even have to be a cash payout, give away a car or something non-monetary to avoid the legal stuff that cash prizes may require.





The reason no one should bet offshore is very simple. YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE DEATH OF THE GAME YOU SAY YOU LOVE AND ENJOY. You mention that the track owners are greedy. Aren't you also being greedy if you bet off shore for more money then what you would get betting on track and having that money flow through the right channels that would support the game? Those offshore sites have no overhead at all and therefore no track would ever be able to compete with them.

 I do get tired of hearing about how the horsemen and track owners are so greedy. Both the track owners and the horsemen have overhead and costs that we all have to cover. The fan does not. The fan is supporting the game by betting on horses we owners supply at a venue that track owners provide. Now if wanting to make a profit is being greedy then yes, I am damn greedy as are the tracks. But it seems to me those who are complaining about what the tracks do are the ones looking for hand outs. Free admission, free parking, cheap food and drinks, free programs and full fields of horses that owners have to buy, train and race while competing against offshore sites with no overhead or other tracks that have slots or other revenue inflows ( your so called subsidies, hand outs or free money) that we do not.

You would rather we race less days thus allowing owners and trainers less opportunities to earn money and less days for the tracks to do so as well. While I have said that we do need to race less days, I mean cutting out at most 3-4 weeks (15-20 days) having a meet like Saratoga at AP would not help as that would be far too short to support the horsemen here. Remember when you compare racing here to NY you really need to add PA,NJ,MD,DE,VA and WVA as all those states together provide an opportunity for year around racing within a relatively short distance. Not so here.

But back to the main point, go ahead and keep betting those offshore sites, but realize you are helping kill off the sport of racing and doing so for your own profit.
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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2006, 09:49:52 AM »

The live racing that Ameritab benefits is in Ohio I believe - I think it is part of the winticket, brisnet group- , obviously not too well though - as thier racing is bottom barrell.
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« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2006, 11:20:20 AM »

1.) the "subsidy/extortion" they get from the casinos

or

2.) the limited meets they run

David,

Nope I am talking net profit. not purses or anything else. profit based upon revenue minus expenses model.
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« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2006, 09:19:12 PM »

So than # 2 would still apply, less expenses in less racing days, also # 1 if you believe the trickle down theroy that they can attract better horses with the subsidy and that in turn would attract more fans etc. etc.
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« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2006, 10:30:23 PM »

So than # 2 would still apply, less expenses in less racing days, also # 1 if you believe the trickle down theroy that they can attract better horses with the subsidy and that in turn would attract more fans etc. etc.

Don't forget when they're not running their thoroughbred meets they're running quite a successful harness meet. NJSEA has made quite a bit on money on racing over the years. It's subsidized a lot of other financial failures NJSEA has taken on, like new sports stadiums. Even before the casino subsidy. But failing fortunes in horse racing brought on their casino extortion, so I don't think all was quite as rosy as Al might have one think.

How it all works, I don't know. Hard enough to keep track of this state.
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