Chicago Barn to Wire
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


November 27, 2014, 04:48:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Poll
Question: Who should be Horse of the Year? 2009
Rachel Alexandra - 27 (41.5%)
Zenyatta - 37 (56.9%)
Other* - 1 (1.5%)
Total Voters: 55

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 28   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: WHO SHOULD BE HORSE OF THE YEAR?  (Read 34852 times)
glahn
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2523




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2009, 10:14:21 PM »

Also, no Classic distance wins for Rachel at 1 1/4 Miles or more.

No, a sixteenth shy. Not that great a distance.

Also, you can't really consider that Zenyatta beat Summer Bird and Mine That Bird, two grade 1 winners, an accomplishment, considering the defeat came on synthetic, which both horses have demonstrated a distaste for, at least less of a preference when compared to dirt.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3854




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2009, 10:16:28 PM »

I think it is a wash and would be a scandal if they were not co-winners of the HOY.  Rachel has not gone 1 1/4 yet, but, except for one race, Zenyatta did not show her long face outside of California.
Report to moderator   Logged
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2009, 10:22:59 PM »

Zenyatta ran the last 1/4 of the Classic in an Amazing 22.4 which is unreal. Look at the horses each horse faced and you guys tell me who ran against the better horses. It's a no contest.
Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2009, 10:35:57 PM »

One simply incredible race stacked against a great campaign. That's what we're all arguing, since nobody really seems to be making the case for Zenyatta based on her actual campaign for the YEAR, since it was nothing until yesterday.

If that one race outweighs Rachel's entire campaign, so be it, but then we should be honest and say it's the RACE of the year award, not the HORSE of the year award. Zenyatta certainly secured the former yesterday, but for one race to take precedence over an entire campaign for horse of the YEAR would be the real travesty.
Report to moderator   Logged
pamwaggy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 8205




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2009, 11:13:42 PM »

Oh shucks.  How can anyone think Zenyatta isn't THE ONE.?!
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2009, 11:55:17 PM »

One simply incredible race stacked against a great campaign. That's what we're all arguing, since nobody really seems to be making the case for Zenyatta based on her actual campaign for the YEAR, since it was nothing until yesterday.

If that one race outweighs Rachel's entire campaign, so be it, but then we should be honest and say it's the RACE of the year award, not the HORSE of the year award. Zenyatta certainly secured the former yesterday, but for one race to take precedence over an entire campaign for horse of the YEAR would be the real travesty.

It happens all the time. A horse that didn't accomplish much "great" all year wins a big BC race and gets named champion or HOY. Nothing new. The old "what have you done lately for me" syndrome, and the BC comes at the end of the year. Yours is a common complaint, but nothing changes. It's a chance the Rachel Alexandra connections took, and the Zenyatta connections took theirs. Now it's up to the actual voters ... no matter how spirited the discussion on this forum.  Cheesy
Report to moderator   Logged
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2009, 12:11:29 AM »

I still think that calling Zenyattas "other" races no good is not smart considering she beat the Ladies Classic Champion (Life Is Sweet) not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES this year alone!
Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2009, 12:20:35 AM »

Think about this too guys, a HOY award for Rachel means a reward for the connections for NOT coming to the Breeders Cup. Many more people will dodge the event in the future if they feel they have it already won. A win for RA sends a bad message IMHO. You have to give it to the Mosses, they had balls.
Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2009, 07:29:19 AM »

Think about this too guys, a HOY award for Rachel means a reward for the connections for NOT coming to the Breeders Cup. Many more people will dodge the event in the future if they feel they have it already won. A win for RA sends a bad message IMHO. You have to give it to the Mosses, they had balls.

It's not that I don't see the case for Zenyatta winning -- it's that despite the fact that she ran the most brilliant race of the year in the Classic, the fact remains that she did so against a field on a surface over which real dirt horses are 0-for-everything the last two years in our nation's biggest Championship races.

It doesn't diminish the performance she turned in, but it's hardly entirely fair to call that the "dirt" championship race for the country this year. Whether it was designed to be that or not, there's no doubt that the surface means she beat the best turf horses Europe and America have to offer. If that wins it, so be it, but Jackson looks even more prudent not bringing his horse out for the race -- because she quite likely would have lost, everyone would pretend it meant something, in a way that no sane person would pretend it meant something about the dirt championship if Rachel had lost to Zenyatta in the Beverly D.

If the Moss's had "balls" to keep Zenyatta in her comfy backyard all year long and then win one big race, then Jackson is MADE of balls for parading Rachel around numerous racetracks all summer long. And if everyone has been saying Rachel was ducking Zenyatta Saturday, why are the Moss's so quick to retire her after her win? It's crystal clear that they're ducking Rachel early next year.  screwy
Report to moderator   Logged
mottoman
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2920




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2009, 07:50:31 AM »

Very good post Brian, and I have to agree with you 100%.  Just think Rachel did more during the year with better competition. 
Report to moderator   Logged
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2009, 07:58:28 AM »

Very good post Brian, and I have to agree with you 100%.  Just think Rachel did more during the year with better competition. 

Well the thing is that Zenyatta has NOW beaten more top quality horses than Rachel has this year -- but she did it all in one race and she did it on a surface that's nothing like real dirt, or Gio Ponti and all the Euros wouldn't have been there, so that's a dead giveaway.

Again, it was sensational, but if you take out that one race, her campaign is quite underwhelming compared to Rachel's, so the question really is, The Classic v. Rachel's entire summer. You can take out any one race of Rachel's (your pick!) and she's still left with an absolutely unbelievable body of work, something only one of these two HOY candidates can say.

We'll see, won't we?!
Report to moderator   Logged
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2009, 08:08:43 AM »

And if everyone has been saying Rachel was ducking Zenyatta Saturday, why are the Moss's so quick to retire her after her win? It's crystal clear that they're ducking Rachel early next year.  screwy

Zenyatta is going to be 6 years old. Do you think Rachel will be running at 6? Heck, Rachel won't be running at 5. The bottom line remains, Rachel never ran in a Breeders Cup Classic race in the 2 years she was eligible and she never ran the Classic distance. Outside of Macho Again (she beat by a head at 1 1/8), Bullsbay, Summer Bird, and Mine That Bird (she beat by one), she has basically run against allowance horses. You see, her campaign was not that tough either. Rachel has not seen 10 last race 100 Beyer horses in her entire career let alone one race. Bottom line, most agree with me. See the pole results so far.
Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2009, 08:17:38 AM »

Zenyatta is going to be 6 years old. Do you think Rachel will be running at 6? Heck, Rachel won't be running at 5. The bottom line remains, Rachel never ran in a Breeders Cup Classic race in the 2 years she was eligible and she never ran the Classic distance. Outside of Macho Again (she beat by a head at 1 1/8), Bullsbay, Summer Bird, and Mine That Bird (she beat by one), she has basically run against allowance horses. You see, her campaign was not that tough either. Rachel has not seen 10 last race 100 Beyer horses in her entire career let alone one race. Bottom line, most agree with me. See the pole results so far.

Again, the "Classic distance" thing is a red herring, because it continues to speak to the fact that you want her to receive HOY for one race.

And who cares when Rachel will be running or how old Zenyatta will be? There are plenty of mind-readers here who "know" why Jackson didn't bring her out to the BC, or "know" why they ran her in the Woodward and not the Travers when he made it quite clear he was never going to bring her out here, and I'll actually take the man at his word instead of trying to create some alternate reality that suits me better ("Jackson is scared of ten furlongs!!11!!!!" or "Jackson is scared of Zenyatta!!11!!!!"), so if we're just going to assign intentions to people with no valid reason based on guesses and emotions instead of looking squarely at what is on paper, I feel fairly confident that I'm just as equally qualified to read minds as the rest of you.

They're obviously scared of Rachel, stop denying it. And they were scared of Sea the Stars too, which is why they didn't run her in the Arc.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 08:19:16 AM by brianwspencer » Report to moderator   Logged
CJP
Full Member
***
Posts: 113




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2009, 08:23:52 AM »

That's what we're all arguing, since nobody really seems to be making the case for Zenyatta based on her actual campaign for the YEAR, since it was nothing until yesterday.


Really? Beating an eventual Breeders' Cup winner - Life Is Sweet - three times amounts to a 'nothing' campaign? How many Breeders' Cup winners did Rachel beat this year? I believe that number is zero. In fact, I believe Rachel beat a bunch of Breeders' Cup also-rans like Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, and Bullsbay.

Also, do you care about things like weight and distance when trying to objectively view this discussion, or is that not important to you? Zenyatta won up to 10 furlongs and carried as much as 129. Rachel, albeit a 3yo, never carried more than 121 and never tried the 'classic' distance.

A BC Classic win, four GI's, a win at 10 furlongs, and the ability to win at a true handicap weight - game over.

Obviously you have a bias and an agenda towards Rachel, and that's fine, but stop playing the role of the fool with these ridiculous claims that Zenyatta did 'nothing' all year. It displays the same ignorance that I often see you 'call out' on this board.
Report to moderator   Logged
CJP
Full Member
***
Posts: 113




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2009, 08:25:21 AM »

Again, the "Classic distance" thing is a red herring, because it continues to speak to the fact that you want her to receive HOY for one race.

The term 'classic distance' has nothing to do with the Breeders' Cup Classic. Historically speaking, 10 furlongs has been known as the 'classic distance.'
Report to moderator   Logged
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2009, 08:33:08 AM »

The term 'classic distance' has nothing to do with the Breeders' Cup Classic. Historically speaking, 10 furlongs has been known as the 'classic distance.'

I know you fancy me a total idiot, and I kind of like that, but thank you for the clarification of the blindingly obvious. I am fully aware of the "classic" distance, and in Zenyatta's case, it certainly speaks only to the Breeders' Cup Classic, since it's the only time she ran 10 furlongs, which again goes back to my point that using the "classic distance" card in favor of Zenyatta again shows that people are still only talking about this one race. Thank you for playing, though. NEXT!


Really? Beating an eventual Breeders' Cup winner - Life Is Sweet - three times amounts to a 'nothing' campaign? How many Breeders' Cup winners did Rachel beat this year? I believe that number is zero. In fact, I believe Rachel beat a bunch of Breeders' Cup also-rans like Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, and Bullsbay.

Also, do you care about things like weight and distance when trying to objectively view this discussion, or is that not important to you? Zenyatta won up to 10 furlongs and carried as much as 129. Rachel, albeit a 3yo, never carried more than 121 and never tried the 'classic' distance.

A BC Classic win, four GI's, a win at 10 furlongs, and the ability to win at a true handicap weight - game over.

Obviously you have a bias and an agenda towards Rachel, and that's fine, but stop playing the role of the fool with these ridiculous claims that Zenyatta did 'nothing' all year. It displays the same ignorance that I often see you 'call out' on this board.

Well, again, you fail to see the obvious. Rachel beat dirt horses. Those Breeders' Cup "also-rans" are dirt horses, and Pro-Ride is not dirt, so I don't hold those races against them in the same way I wouldn't have held a loss in the Secretariat on the grass against Summer Bird if he had gone. To each their own, but my "bias" towards Rachel is hardly any more outlandish than those cheering for Zenyatta, as often "what a beatiful horse, she made me cry again Saturday" is used as some additional bonus for her case for HOY.
Report to moderator   Logged
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2009, 08:40:16 AM »

Really? Beating an eventual Breeders' Cup winner - Life Is Sweet - three times amounts to a 'nothing' campaign? How many Breeders' Cup winners did Rachel beat this year? I believe that number is zero. In fact, I believe Rachel beat a bunch of Breeders' Cup also-rans like Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, and Bullsbay.

I agree. I am tired of the Rachel fans always saying who did she beat? Life is Sweet is a better filly than any female ran against all year by far, and Zenyatta beat her 3 times. We already know about the males.
Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
pezz97
Guest

« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2009, 08:41:29 AM »

Brian, it is pretty obvious you only think Rachel is worthy and will not see the other facts that are being thrown out there.Once a point is made, then you have to switch it to another point and blah blah blah.  Hence I learned a long time ago, that people like you are not worthy of a good debate. In your mind, you are right everyone else is wrong and that is that!


I agree. I am tired of the Rachel fans always saying who did she beat? Life is Sweet is a better filly than any female ran against all year by far, and Zenyatta beat her 3 times. We already know about the males.
thumbs up
Report to moderator   Logged
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2009, 08:45:17 AM »

Brian, it is pretty obvious you only think Rachel is worthy and will not see the other facts that are being thrown out there.Once a point is made, then you have to switch it to another point and blah blah blah.  Hence I learned a long time ago, that people like you are not worthy of a good debate. In your mind, you are right everyone else is wrong and that is that!

 thumbs up

Yes, because I'm the only one in this entire thread and on this entire forum who has a clear feeling of who should be HOY and is backing it up with what I think are the relevant facts -- why, those Zenyatta fans are being so much more reasonable than me!

I am probably the only person in this entire thread who has said "I can see the case for Zenyatta," when I believe Rachel should be HOY. Nobody on Z's side has yet to even acknowledge Rachel's case -- and I'm the unreasonable one?


Report to moderator   Logged
CJP
Full Member
***
Posts: 113




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2009, 08:46:31 AM »

I know you fancy me a total idiot, and I kind of like that, but thank you for the clarification of the blindingly obvious. I am fully aware of the "classic" distance, and in Zenyatta's case, it certainly speaks only to the Breeders' Cup Classic, since it's the only time she ran 10 furlongs, which again goes back to my point that using the "classic distance" card in favor of Zenyatta again shows that people are still only talking about this one race. Thank you for playing, though. NEXT!


Well, again, you fail to see the obvious. Rachel beat dirt horses. Those Breeders' Cup "also-rans" are dirt horses, and Pro-Ride is not dirt, so I don't hold those races against them in the same way I wouldn't have held a loss in the Secretariat on the grass against Summer Bird if he had gone. To each their own, but my "bias" towards Rachel is hardly any more outlandish than those cheering for Zenyatta, as often "what a beatiful horse, she made me cry again Saturday" is used as some additional bonus for her case for HOY.

I fancy you an idiot when you make idiotic statements. And when you say "Again, the "Classic distance" thing is a red herring, because it continues to speak to the fact that you want her to receive HOY for one race." it states rather clearly that you don't know the meaning of a term. But nice try to cover that up with the "blindingly obvious" comment - and I hope you've learned something today.

It's also nice to see that you can make the rules fit what you need them to - such as choosing to simply disregard losing performances because you didn't like the surface a race was run over. Great debate technique - just close your eyes and the monsters will go away.

Finally, no emotion has been presented here, so I'll state it again - "A BC Classic win, four GI's, a win at 10 furlongs, and the ability to win at a true handicap weight (129) - game over.
Report to moderator   Logged
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2009, 08:52:44 AM »

I fancy you an idiot when you make idiotic statements. And when you say "Again, the "Classic distance" thing is a red herring, because it continues to speak to the fact that you want her to receive HOY for one race." it states rather clearly that you don't know the meaning of a term. But nice try to cover that up with the "blindingly obvious" comment - and I hope you've learned something today.

It's also nice to see that you can make the rules fit what you need them to - such as choosing to simply disregard losing performances because you didn't like the surface a race was run over. Great debate technique - just close your eyes and the monsters will go away.

Finally, no emotion has been presented here, so I'll state it again - "A BC Classic win, four GI's, a win at 10 furlongs, and the ability to win at a true handicap weight (129) - game over.

I don't have time for a reading comprehension lesson here, but if I say "let's talk about Zenyatta at the classic distance," what are we going to talk about? All the other times she's run the classic distance before Saturday?

Of course not, when talking about Zenyatta and the "classic" distance, there is only ONE race to speak of -- which is what I said originally. If you're talking about Zenyatta and you're talking about the classic distance, you're talking about ONE race.

Zenyatta + classic distance. Please tell me all the other races you'd use as an example of her running at the classic distance. Oh wait, it's just the one. Oh wait, part two, that's EXACTLY WHAT I SAID in the first place.

And you're going to lecture me about debate techniques. Please.

At least Steve can still read clearly. This is three months of posting about Zenyatta and Rachel where nobdoy else seems to be able to read a comment and respond to it without twisting my words and intentionally miscontruing what Im saying in an effort to score some unrelated point.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2009, 08:52:54 AM »

Finally, no emotion has been presented here, so I'll state it again - "A BC Classic win, four GI's, a win at 10 furlongs, and the ability to win at a true handicap weight (129) - game over.

No wins on dirt. Very few races. Suspect girls-only competition until the BC. Stayed home on her poly track all year. All negatives.  

The "game" will be over when the voters vote, not when anyone declares it on an Internet forum.
Report to moderator   Logged
CJP
Full Member
***
Posts: 113




Ignore
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2009, 08:57:33 AM »

my "bias" towards Rachel is hardly any more outlandish than those cheering for Zenyatta, as often "what a beatiful horse, she made me cry again Saturday" is used as some additional bonus for her case for HOY.

HA! - This from the person that once stated "I think Rachel has won HOY already...not based on who she has beaten but on the emotional and symbolic significance of her having beaten the boys in the Preakness and Haskell....
Report to moderator   Logged
brianwspencer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1700




Ignore
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2009, 08:59:58 AM »

HA! - This from the person that once stated "I think Rachel has won HOY already...not based on who she has beaten but on the emotional and symbolic significance of her having beaten the boys in the Preakness and Haskell....

Not my emotions. That debate was all about how voters would view it. I've never used my emotions to back up my argument.

You're like the strikeout king, dude, well done!
Report to moderator   Logged
CJP
Full Member
***
Posts: 113




Ignore
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2009, 09:03:28 AM »

Not my emotions. That debate was all about how voters would view it. I've never used my emotions to back up my argument.

Another convenient side-step - using the "officer, these aren't my pants" defense. You're actually kind of pathetic, dude. I'm done.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 09:14:05 AM by CJP » Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 28   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.202 seconds with 18 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Breeders' Cup
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Breeders' Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy