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Author Topic: Training blood counts  (Read 10965 times)
Suicide_Mare
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2009, 05:22:17 AM »

All said and done one of the more important levels to look at in your blood readings is the "sgot" or as commonly known the "tie up factor". This level needs to be low.. the lower the better... I believe that potassium and selinium along with vit.E can help to level the playing field for this reading.. Some robaxin will aid, but you have to be careful with withdrawl time for racing. OF course the best remedy is baking soda,but we all know what that can cause. Good luck and keep on trying beer

This post by John W still has me wondering about the SGOT.  I also did a little research on NewCells and similar products (have no personal experience with them).  These products seem to be vitamin restoral in nature while having some preventative and treatment affects for anemia.  You may want to consider "after training" blood work in addition to your "at rest" blood work.

I had a similar puzzle to solve relative to SGOT and found that the combination of routine blood work under different conditions helped me understand the horse and his "chemistry".  Just another idea.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2009, 11:06:31 AM »

The sgot, which it isnt even labeled that anymore, is important, but not for blood. While it's certainly true that a high SGOT level indicates a tie up, that always has more to do with muscles and lactic acid than any blood disorder. that would be a whole different topic. It is nice to just talk training though, there are so many myths about things that just arent true and where the old timers came up with them I have NO idea. But the vets are usually quite good at dispelling the things that need be. Keep up the good work. thumbs up
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2009, 04:14:26 PM »

I must have an old time vet as his report sheet does still list SGOT as one of a blood count catagorys.. I also think that if it is on the blood report that it is part of the blood count. A trainer looks at all aspects of his horses issues to get it into top shape and why would an animal be able to perform at high speed if it's muscles are in a knot? Some of the new school ideas are only as good as they work on the individual as are the old ones. Each horse shoud be treated as an individual case and not lumped into an assembly line program.
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Suicide_Mare
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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2009, 06:06:38 AM »

In my post above I wasn't very clear.  I was trying to suggest (like JW mentions) that all indicators are important when solving a horse metabolism issue.  SGOT and RBC indicators aren't directly related but monitoring them individually and in relationship to eachother would be helpful ... JMO.  Especially, at rest readings and after training/racing.  RBC indicators are heat sensitive too, I understand (horse temperature and climatic temperature).  Let me know if I've got this wrong -- My own case study on this left with the horse!
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 07:39:10 PM »

My horse still has a lo blood  count.  treated for two weeks and it is actually lower than when I started.
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2009, 08:06:34 PM »

Any chance he had been treated with an EPO substance before you got him?  If so, may have developed the anemia from suppression of his own erythropoitin. May take him a long time to recover.  Pork
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jrstark
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2009, 08:10:01 PM »

Any chance of finding older blood work on him?  Some horses just have low numbers.  He obviously doesn't look bad if you raced him and he hit the board.  I'd say keep an eye on it, but go by how he looks and acts.
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2009, 08:29:43 PM »

Two weeks ago the RBC was 8.33 Saturday it was 7.24. He trained like a monster! Didn't seem tired after training.  He is eating all of his feed.  I jjust don't understand it.   Has had 5cc hippiron twice a week for two weeks.  Doesn't act like an EPO horse and I can't get any previous blood work. Hemoglobin 12, hematocrit 34.  White count is low 3.7.
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2009, 09:35:05 PM »

Low iron levels are very rare in horses. Copper deficiency can cause anemia by interfering with the production of the iron carrying protein ceruloplasmin, which is needed to get copper from the intestinal cells to the bone marrow to be used to make hemoglobin. Copper deficiency is common in racehorses, high levels of minerals and sulfates in water may be interfering with copper uptake. Also horses with gastrointestinal problems may have borderline B vitamin production or be unable to utilize the B vitamins in their diet well. Bottom line many horses get ODed on iron which can affect the liver and not enough b vitamins and copper. Caco copper and an increase in b vitamins may be the answer as well as addressing the stomach issues. According to the Horse Journal, Su-per Anti-Oxidant/Gateway Products will help your counts the best. 
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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2009, 09:08:21 AM »

Low iron levels are very rare in horses. Copper deficiency can cause anemia by interfering with the production of the iron carrying protein ceruloplasmin, which is needed to get copper from the intestinal cells to the bone marrow to be used to make hemoglobin. Copper deficiency is common in racehorses, high levels of minerals and sulfates in water may be interfering with copper uptake. Also horses with gastrointestinal problems may have borderline B vitamin production or be unable to utilize the B vitamins in their diet well. Bottom line many horses get ODed on iron which can affect the liver and not enough b vitamins and copper. Caco copper and an increase in b vitamins may be the answer as well as addressing the stomach issues. According to the Horse Journal, Su-per Anti-Oxidant/Gateway Products will help your counts the best. 

Thanks, I will try to go back to caco coppr and B 12 and see if we can fix this.
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« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2009, 08:42:39 PM »

Blood  counts not going up, paced in 153.2 today finishing 8th in the preferred.  I got to get the blood counts up.  5 days last week i gave him new cells.  I will get his blood tested again
this weekend.  Doesn't seem that he has crashed like an epogen horse,  More like a low value virus or something.
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Suicide_Mare
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2009, 06:21:57 AM »

Hi Samstar, sorry about the race.  I know you're concerned.  I looked at your horses history and he's not way off his game.  I'd be frustrated but not overly concerned.  You seem to know what your doing and the horse is getting excellent care.  In my limited experience, that Class you race in is tough ... not just from a speed standpoint.  The entries and talent level varies significantly week-to-week and those horses know spooky head/attitude techniques to psyche eachother off their racing game!  Good luck, keep us posted. 
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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 10:04:45 PM »

Hi Samstar, sorry about the race.  I know you're concerned.  I looked at your horses history and he's not way off his game.  I'd be frustrated but not overly concerned.  You seem to know what your doing and the horse is getting excellent care.  In my limited experience, that Class you race in is tough ... not just from a speed standpoint.  The entries and talent level varies significantly week-to-week and those horses know spooky head/attitude techniques to psyche eachother off their racing game!  Good luck, keep us posted. 
Thanks for the encouragement. He gets to drop way down next week and will do fine. Joe Anderson gave the prevous owner some tips and he passed them on to me. (tighten hopples, hood, train harder)  We will figure him out.  I stalked the horse for a year, so I will be patient with him.
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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2009, 07:12:36 AM »

Thanks for the encouragement. He gets to drop way down next week and will do fine. Joe Anderson gave the prevous owner some tips and he passed them on to me. (tighten hopples, hood, train harder)  We will figure him out.  I stalked the horse for a year, so I will be patient with him.
Did Anderson ever have the horse?
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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2009, 12:42:56 PM »

Did Anderson ever have the horse?
Yes, Joe had him last winter for 3-4 months.
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 07:51:57 PM »

Took blood on my horse and he is still in the low acceptable range.  7.63 RBC

I got really smart and decided I would take blood 5 minutes after his qualifier and see what his
splenetic blood count was.  Harness horses reserve  a percent of the red cells in the spleen and dump them when excited.

I expect the results tommorrow. The vet told me what a great idea that was.  I asked him what I should expect to see,  He said, "gee I don't know". I asked several other vets and they all concurred  that it was a great idea.  They also said that they didn't know what values we should be looking for in a "splenetic blood count".  This is too funny and I am looking for a genius trainer out there to tell me what I should expect before I get the results. 
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 09:11:19 PM »

Those numbers should be off the charts.  I would be concerned with the hematocrit.  If that hematocrit is high then the horse is sludging and that is what is keeping him from going a big mile.  I would worry about the counts but if that hematacrit is high I would give him some liquid aspirin to thin the blood down a little and see how good he'll be then.
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2010, 07:37:05 PM »

Those numbers should be off the charts.  I would be concerned with the hematocrit.  If that hematocrit is high then the horse is sludging and that is what is keeping him from going a big mile.  I would worry about the counts but if that hematacrit is high I would give him some liquid aspirin to thin the blood down a little and see how good he'll be then.

His normal hematocrit has been 34.7 his splenatic hct was 58.6  (the vet said that he was hoping for a 65% splenatic hct) 
his recent RBC has been 7.63  his splenatic RBC was  11.87

I have sheduled an ulcer scope for him next week.  He has to fast for 12 hours. He is scheduled to be shod and trained on Wednesday.  Will get food and water at 5pm. Hay with held and scoped the next morning.  The vet says that he feels he is losing his blood cells.

What do you  think of the above info?
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2010, 08:02:47 AM »

Very interesting topic.  (See? I read and learn)  I had a horse last year, spent 1 full year on re-hab which included all supplements in his feed in addition to 24/7 turn-out on excellent pasture.  Took blood count when he started back training, was in the mid-8s.  Vet said that was good, I thought low.  The owner happens to be a cardiac specialist.  He also said nothing to worry about and said something about the spleen producing the red cells when exertion called for them. 
I took numerous blood counts over the following months, never got a reading of 9 or higher.  Every vet I asked said mid 8s was normal.  If you ask other trainers, though, they gasp in horror and say the count should be at least 12.  WTF do I know?  That's why I stick to fixing attitude problems and leave the racing to others.
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2010, 10:25:35 AM »

Very interesting topic.  (See? I read and learn)  I had a horse last year, spent 1 full year on re-hab which included all supplements in his feed in addition to 24/7 turn-out on excellent pasture.  Took blood count when he started back training, was in the mid-8s.  Vet said that was good, I thought low.  The owner happens to be a cardiac specialist.  He also said nothing to worry about and said something about the spleen producing the red cells when exertion called for them. 
I took numerous blood counts over the following months, never got a reading of 9 or higher.  Every vet I asked said mid 8s was normal.  If you ask other trainers, though, they gasp in horror and say the count should be at least 12.  WTF do I know?  That's why I stick to fixing attitude problems and leave the racing to others.

My vets keep telling me that anything in the 8s is OK.  I have two top class trotters who carry RBCs in the mid 8s.  25 years ago I had a trotter that was in the 8s.  I was determined to get the blood count up and administered Pig iron weekly for a month.  His last RBC was almost 12.
The next start I went off at 13-1.  I pulled him half way down the stretch and he shot past the leaders.  Ever since that race, I have had a fixation on RBCs but I don't use pig iron any more because all of the vets tell me that it is dangerous.  I sure don't want one of my expensive horses dropping dead on me. 
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2010, 08:55:02 PM »

I had the horse scoped for ulcers today.  There were no active ulcers.  There were lesions that indicated that he has had ulcers but the generic omeprozole seems to have worked.  The only thing left to do is a fecal occult blood test to make sure that he hasn't a serious worm problem. If that test is postive he will get a super wormer.  If it is negative, he better brace himself for some regular blood shots until we get the count into the 8s.  If all else fails, I will have to try the pig iron.
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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2010, 07:18:42 AM »

  I recently came across an article in a 10 year old magazine about small strongyles.  I'm going to do further internet research, as the article was thought provoking... and left a lot of questions unanswered.
  One point: invermectin does not kill them.  Most racehorse trainers, if they even worm at all, only use invermectin.  I go invermectin, strongid, tape care plus, then Quest.  After that I use the same schedule but I mix up brand names.
   According to the article, strongyles have to be kiled at a specific time in their development.  (third stage develpment?).  Best time to deworm, is Nov and Dec? 
   The riding horses I've had for almost 10 years look great, so I guess my program is working, but I have this STB I'm training to ride who has a hair coat much like that described for strongyle infestation and just doesn't look 100%.  The written vet history that came with the horse (thank you for that former trainer thumbs up) had horse last being wormed with invermectin.   
  I'm wondering if instead of one dose Strongid paste, I should go with the Strongid daily wormer for a couple weeks?  Anyone else use the daily?  Maybe I should put the riding horses on it as they are on pasture all summer long?
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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2010, 12:06:19 PM »

You could try a pancor power pack.  It is five daily doses and works well for horses that have lots of worms.
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« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2010, 07:56:06 PM »

I had the horse scoped for ulcers today.  There were no active ulcers.  There were lesions that indicated that he has had ulcers but the generic omeprozole seems to have worked.  The only thing left to do is a fecal occult blood test to make sure that he hasn't a serious worm problem. If that test is postive he will get a super wormer.  If it is negative, he better brace himself for some regular blood shots until we get the count into the 8s.  If all else fails, I will have to try the pig iron.
do you use pigiron,sam?
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2010, 08:06:19 PM »

When your giving pig iron are you giving it oral or are you injecting it?  How much are giving and how often?
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