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Author Topic: Training blood counts  (Read 10522 times)
samstar
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« on: November 06, 2009, 07:10:20 PM »

I took a blood count for a base line on a horse I am just starting to train,
RBC  8.23
Hemoglobin 13.5
Hematocrit 38.8
I know that these are pretty normal readings, but would you all be satisfied with these or would you be working to get the RBC up into the 9s?

By the way, the horse was a little sore in the back when I had him vetted yesterday and I told the vet to mix 10ccs of Hippiron in with the iodine when he injected him. Kill two birds with one stone.  Hippiron is probably as much of an irritant as Iodine?
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 07:29:53 PM »

Sam, I'm not sure that hippiron is anything but a blood builder. you might have raised his RBC by accident. Also, calcium makes for a very good irritant over the back but it can cause them to get a little warm for a while. Never thought of iron in that fashion, but entirely possible.
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samstar
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 09:26:51 PM »

Mel, would you be happy with those blood readings?  Maybe a little room for improvement?

Hippiron mixed with iodine should be a blood builder and counter irritant
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tsunami
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »

samstar,

From what I have read , Hippiron is mostly an iron supplement and would treat an anemic horse.

I would do a full blood test and determine the true problems instead of just throwing darts ..... JMO
It could just be a thyroid problem ~ or maybe the SGOT level is too high
(If he/she was just put through a serious event)

Good Luck with whatever you decide

P.S. I just so your other thread the horse had a long trip .......my bad
 
O&S is a good source too IMHO
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 10:08:12 PM by tsunami » Report to moderator   Logged
Cablacinasian
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2009, 12:26:43 AM »

I took a blood count for a base line on a horse I am just starting to train,
RBC  8.23
Hemoglobin 13.5
Hematocrit 38.8
I know that these are pretty normal readings, but would you all be satisfied with these or would you be working to get the RBC up into the 9s?

By the way, the horse was a little sore in the back when I had him vetted yesterday and I told the vet to mix 10ccs of Hippiron in with the iodine when he injected him. Kill two birds with one stone.  Hippiron is probably as much of an irritant as Iodine?

Get him on EPO, immediately.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2009, 06:13:09 AM »

Mel, would you be happy with those blood readings?  Maybe a little room for improvement?

Hippiron mixed with iodine should be a blood builder and counter irritant



I would be, as long as your RBC and hematicrit is in the normal range, you have nothing to worry about. Of course there are always things you can do to raise them a touch (some illegal, of course) but if they are all in the normal range....no worries.
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Suicide_Mare
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2009, 07:26:04 AM »

I would be, as long as your RBC and heaticrit is in the normal range, you have nothing to worry about. Of course there are always things you can do to raise them a touch (some illegal, of course) but if they are all in the normal range....no worries.

I tend to agree with the above (while certainly no expert); if things are within normal range ... no worries.  I think the baseline blood draw is VERY important and also comparing the complete panel over time to find out what is "Normal" for each horse.  Mel made me look up information on Hermatocrit ... the last two sentences were new to me:

Hematocrit - a measurement of the relative amount of red blood cells present in a blood sample. After blood is drawn, a small tube is filled and centrifuged to separate the heavier blood cells from the lighter white blood cells and the even lighter fluid (plasma or serum) portion. A higher than normal reading generally indicates dehydration (same number of cells in less plasma volume) or may be due to splenic contraction secondary to excitement or the demands of exercise.  A low reading may indicate anemia, though not invariably (4).  Highly fit athletic horses may normally have a slightly lower hematocrit at rest due to an overall more efficient cardiovascular system.  Evaluation of true anemia in horses requires several blood samples over a 24-hour period.
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samstar
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 07:26:46 AM »

I used to use pig iron.  Got one RBC up to 11.2 and bet the horse.  He won for fun, but I have seen several bad reactions to pig iron including festering wounds.
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Suicide_Mare
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 07:34:21 AM »

You know Samstar ... I had an old time trainer tell me to use Pig Iron once and I bounced the idea off a well-respected farm VET and he said NO WAY IN HELL .. you'll kill the horse.

See that is what is good about your idea on the Training threads ... you get input/ideas, blend your own experience and what you know and trust and take it from there.  Tx for starting these.
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Old and Slow
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2009, 07:47:25 AM »

I've heard bad things about pig iron as well. We stay away from it. We like an oral supplement - Tuttles Liquid 747.

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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 07:58:40 AM »

I've heard good things about Tuttles too ... some folks swear by it.  Probably cheaper than the occasional Vitamin jug and normalizes vitamins/nutrients continually as opposed to all at once or weekly.  See .. I'm convincing myself!  Thanks Old and Slow.
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jrstark
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 09:29:08 AM »

Samstar, what's the reference range on that labwork?  Each lab can be different, but the one I just looked at is 6.5-14.6 for RBC.
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samstar
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 09:52:44 AM »

jrstark, My abs referance is is 5.63-12.09.  I think the 8.23 is alright but I would like to get it up a little.
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 11:21:53 AM »

Was the horse being supplemented before or just on pasture?  Is this the horse that was shipped?  You might want to see how he does under your care for awhile and wait for a later test to see if your normal procedure is enough to bring it up.

Treat the horse not the number, if you worry too much about one thing, you make knock off the balance somewhere else.
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samstar
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 12:18:49 PM »

Was the horse being supplemented before or just on pasture?  Is this the horse that was shipped?  You might want to see how he does under your care for awhile and wait for a later test to see if your normal procedure is enough to bring it up.

Treat the horse not the number, if you worry too much about one thing, you make knock off the balance somewhere else.

That's acommon sense answer.  He is the horse that was shipped.  He is not eating as well as I would like but  hope that will change quickly.  He is out every day in a fresh pasture and I expect that to be a plus.  I am notgoing to race him next week.  I will train him one trip tommorrow in 30 and thec come back Thursday with a little tougher  workout. He is a beautiful animal and I am excited about him.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 11:27:41 PM »

I dont know what state your in Sam, but a small dose of those ever present steroids, (or hormones, as we used to call them) really serve a good purpose in this effect. instead of a giant blast like 5 cc's....give like 2 cc's of equipoise....it should do the horse good ...make him feel good and increase appetite. Just a thought.
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samstar
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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 12:26:56 AM »

I dont know what state your in Sam, but a small dose of those ever present steroids, (or hormones, as we used to call them) really serve a good purpose in this effect. instead of a giant blast like 5 cc's....give like 2 cc's of equipoise....it should do the horse good ...male him feel good and increase appetite. Just a thought.
2cc of equipoise would get me 30 days.  I actually just paid the state of Pa $50.00 to test and make sure that he has not had any steroids because I can't  stand the idea of getting busted.
It was a sad day for horses when they banned winstrol.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 07:24:27 AM »

2cc of equipoise would get me 30 days.  I actually just paid the state of Pa $50.00 to test and make sure that he has not had any steroids because I can't  stand the idea of getting busted.
It was a sad day for horses when they banned winstrol.



yeah, PA is not tolerant of any. It's a shame for those of us who know how, and how much create a very large benefit for the horse. Before any of you others go off the deepend, use is one thing, ABUSE, is another....no matter what it is.
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2009, 09:09:05 AM »

A problem with iron supplements, at least in humans, is iron settles in the joints in subjects with sluggish thyroid and adrenal activity. Human Adrenals produce human cortisone and cortisol, which are powerful anti-inflammatory hormones.  When the adrenals are weak, hormone production decreases.  Inflammation of the joints is often one result.  This type of arthritic pain is often worse in the morning.  As the day goes on, the adrenals may function better and the pain often lessens.

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/Osteoarthritis188.htm

This is why enriched white flours (not whole wheat), those flours enriched with iron (the cheapest supplement available) are harmful to humans and especially harmful to post-menapausal women who no longer have the ability to expel excess iron from the body. The iron settles in their joints resulting in inflammation and osteoarthritis.
Might be this happens to horses that are slow oxidizers?

In any event, humans, and especially post-menapausal women, should stay away from enriched white flours.
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samstar
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2009, 12:06:19 PM »

yeah, PA is not tolerant of any. It's a shame for those of us who know how, and how much create a very large benefit for the horse. Before any of you others go off the deepend, use is one thing, ABUSE, is another....no matter what it is.
A Pa trainer had two horses sent from NY the beginning of this year. He won with both and they both tested positive for testosterone.  The New York trainer and vet both sent sworn statements that they had administered the testosterone and the Pa trainer still got 90 days. Go figure!
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2009, 05:03:35 PM »

A Pa trainer had two horses sent from NY the beginning of this year. He won with both and they both tested positive for testosterone.  The New York trainer and vet both sent sworn statements that they had administered the testosterone and the Pa trainer still got 90 days. Go figure!




That's why the trainer responsibility rule is just ignorant...just one of the ways.
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samstar
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2009, 05:23:47 PM »

That's why the trainer responsibility rule is just ignorant...just one of the ways.
I always thought that the trainer responsibility rule was in absence of information as to how the horse got the drug, the trainer was responsible.  Under the present rules in Pa. If they catch someone sabotaging your horse, prosecute him and send him to jail, the trainer would still get days under trainer responsibility. Go figure! 
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samstar
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 05:27:21 PM »

A problem with iron supplements, at least in humans, is iron settles in the joints in subjects with sluggish thyroid and adrenal activity. Human Adrenals produce human cortisone and cortisol, which are powerful anti-inflammatory hormones.  When the adrenals are weak, hormone production decreases.  Inflammation of the joints is often one result.  This type of arthritic pain is often worse in the morning.  As the day goes on, the adrenals may function better and the pain often lessens.

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/Osteoarthritis188.htm

This is why enriched white flours (not whole wheat), those flours enriched with iron (the cheapest supplement available) are harmful to humans and especially harmful to post-
menapausal women who no longer have the ability to expel excess iron from the body. The iron settles in their joints resulting in inflammation and osteoarthritis.

Might be this happens to horses that are slow oxidizers?

In any event, humans, and especially post-menapausal women, should stay away from enriched white flours.



Gee Ed, you are a lot more fun off the political thread.  I will have to take you off ignore.
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 07:36:09 PM »

All said and done one of the more important levels to look at in your blood readings is the "sgot" or as commonly known the "tie up factor". This level needs to be low.. the lower the better... I believe that potassium and selinium along with vit.E can help to level the playing field for this reading.. Some robaxin will aid, but you have to be careful with withdrawl time for racing. OF course the best remedy is baking soda,but we all know what that can cause. Good luck and keep on trying beer
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the smoking gun
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2009, 11:51:04 PM »

There are lots of ways to increase the blood count.  Cacco Copper is always a good choice
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