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Author Topic: Well, what have we here!  (Read 2533 times)
Edwarren
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« on: August 04, 2009, 07:35:15 PM »

Interesting article by Steve Zorn.

Note: its a year old.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/07/how-not-to-bet-belmont-or-any-race-in-new-york/?pagemode=print

However he has this to say:

"When money is bet through the parimutel system — whether on-track, at an OTB or through a far-off computer site — the first thing that happens is that the “takeout” is deducted from what the winning bettors will get back. "

Could this be?  Do the winners really pay the takeout? No way!! Or, at least not, according to a few geniuses at Barntowire.  One even showed us the regs though failed to actually understand them. Of course a patient poster took time out and spent the valuable time of others in an effort to explain what he could not understand.

Roulette or slots might be a good game for him.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 08:00:42 PM »

I know Steve Zorn personally. He's a horse owner and a blogger. He's no more expert on the parimutuel system than anyone here.
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Grinder
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 11:21:10 PM »

Ed, congratulations. You spent time finding someone who said what I said here.   Takeout is a known fact, and players should base their play accordingly.

Enjoy the slots.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 09:38:17 AM »

Interesting article by Steve Zorn.

Note: its a year old.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/07/how-not-to-bet-belmont-or-any-race-in-new-york/?pagemode=print

However he has this to say:

"When money is bet through the parimutel system — whether on-track, at an OTB or through a far-off computer site — the first thing that happens is that the “takeout” is deducted from what the winning bettors will get back."

Could this be?  Do the winners really pay the takeout?

Christ, Ed, how much do you think you can twist the English language right in front of our eyes?

Let's walk this down, step by step, using what Steve Zorn wrote:

1. "When money is bet through the parimutuel system"...STOP here.

Money bet by who? EVERYONE. Who is everyone? All of the bettors involved in a race -- the superset of all bettors that will have WINNING BETS, and those that will have LOSING BETS...once the outcome of the race is known.

OK, let's continue:

2. "...the first thing that happens is that the “takeout” is deducted..."

The bets have been made, the bell rings, and we have this moment in time where there are no more bets being made -- the race is being run! But, aha! We don't know who the winner is, yet -- so we have no winners and losers.

ANSWER THIS PLEASE, Ed: Those win odds shown on the tote -- during the running of the race -- do those odds reflect takeout being deducted already?
 
If your answer is "yes" (and I believe that is the correct answer), then you can only conclude that EVERYONE paid the takeout, because we have NO WINNERS yet and NO LOSERS, but the odds being displayed on the tote board reflect the FULL EFFECT of takeout being deducted.

So, during the running of the race, ALL bettors, as a group, are already out the ~20% or more blended takeout rate from all the pools -- it's a done deal at this point, and the only way ALL of the bettors can get that takeout back is if the race is declared a non-contest.

The "OFFICIAL" sign merely decides who gets some of the remaining ~80% or less (the winners), and who gets 0% (the losers).
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brianwspencer
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 09:48:34 AM »

http://www.barntowire.com/smf/index.php?topic=26632.msg271169#msg271169

In addition, I defer to Horse Voice here....they key words that are the problem here for you Ed are the words "the first thing that happens," which actually proves the exact opposite of your point.
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Grinder
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 10:04:50 AM »

Great reply and post H.Voice!  Better than mine, I must admit.  I hope that Ed can see what we are all saying now. That the takeout is known going in, and if you can state that it is too high after a race, then you had no business being involved in the race in the first place because the takeout is not something the tracks arbitrarily "spring" on customers later.  It is reflected on the board in the odds, as are the pool amounts. Always.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 10:43:04 AM »

Great reply and post H.Voice!  Better than mine, I must admit.  I hope that Ed can see what we are all saying now.

I'm saying the same sort of things you all have been saying in your responses to Ed, in a slightly different manner.
 
I'm quite sure Ed is a decent dude, and we would all probably have a good time talking horses over a few beers, but when it comes to takeout, and discussions related to same...Ed, I gotta tell ya, you are wired differently than the rest of us. You hate high takeout -- I get that.

*All* horseplayers hate high takeout, once they understand the deleterious effects it has on our collective bankrolls -- but that isn't rationale for overstating it's effects, what with contrived calculations and equations that make it seem even worse than it already is.
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Edwarren
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 03:21:51 PM »

http://www.barntowire.com/smf/index.php?topic=26632.msg271169#msg271169

In addition, I defer to Horse Voice here....they key words that are the problem here for you Ed are the words "the first thing that happens," which actually proves the exact opposite of your point.

Well, of course the first thing that happens is - the losers lose to the winners,  but I don't believe Zorn felt it was necessary to mention that without appearing retarded (though for the benefit of BTW, I spose he should have.)

I'm glad all this worked out to everyones satisfaction.
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Edwarren
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 04:43:45 PM »

ANSWER THIS PLEASE, Ed: Those win odds shown on the tote -- during the running of the race -- do those odds reflect takeout being deducted already?
 
If your answer is "yes" (and I believe that is the correct answer), then you can only conclude that EVERYONE paid the takeout, because we have NO WINNERS yet and NO LOSERS, but the odds being displayed on the tote board reflect the FULL EFFECT of takeout being deducted.


Do you really want me to answer (because you won't like the answer and you enjoy arguing?)   The answer is elementary and I'm surprised a smart guy like you might have got it wrong. Since everyone (and I) are sick of this, I'll PM you or let it be the last post.  Which will it be?  (I hope you'll speak for everyone.)
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 05:45:44 PM »

Do you really want me to answer (because you won't like the answer and you enjoy arguing?)   The answer is elementary and I'm surprised a smart guy like you might have got it wrong. Since everyone (and I) are sick of this, I'll PM you or let it be the last post.  Which will it be?  (I hope you'll speak for everyone.)

Oh, please do answer publicly...and so there is no confusion, I'll repeat the question:

Those win odds shown on the tote -- during the running of the race -- do those odds reflect takeout being deducted already?
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brianwspencer
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 05:53:13 PM »

Well, of course the first thing that happens is - the losers lose to the winners,  but I don't believe Zorn felt it was necessary to mention that without appearing retarded (though for the benefit of BTW, I spose he should have.)

I'm glad all this worked out to everyones satisfaction.

No, the first thing that happens (according to your article, and according to what actually happens in real life) is that takeout is removed from what the winners WILL get back. Takeout is removed first thing, long before the winners have won the race.

Not to appear "retarded," I'm just simply pointing out the syntax and actual meaning of what your quote said. Though you disagree, it actually proves 100% the opposite of what you're stating it does.

Not that I'm trying to start a basic reading comprehension contest, though.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 06:09:49 PM »

If there was no such thing as takeout, and someone was running wagering pools for some charity purpose, Ed's right, the winners of that particular race would take all the money from that pool. However, that's not how parimutuel wagering in the U.S. works. No one is running a charity pool, and takeout that comes out of the gross pool - that is to say, every bet made by every bettor whether eventual winner or loser - is an advertised and well-known reality that's going to be assessed against all the money in the pool, whether contributed by winners or losers, before any bettor ever sees a dime. No bettor can possibly win it from another to claim it's his money the track is nicking. That money is not there to be won. The winners did not win it.
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Edwarren
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 07:02:56 PM »

No, the first thing that happens (according to your article, and according to what actually happens in real life) is that takeout is removed from what the winners WILL get back. Takeout is removed first thing, long before the winners have won the race.

Not to appear "retarded," I'm just simply pointing out the syntax and actual meaning of what your quote said. Though you disagree, it actually proves 100% the opposite of what you're stating it does.

Not that I'm trying to start a basic reading comprehension contest, though.


No one said YOU were retarded, Brian.  Jeez, don't feel so downtrodden.
Right, takeout is deducted from what the winner will get back.  The winner pays the takeout.  Its not deducted twice.
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Edwarren
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 07:36:33 PM »

Oh, please do answer publicly...and so there is no confusion, I'll repeat the question:

Those win odds shown on the tote -- during the running of the race -- do those odds reflect takeout being deducted already?


Being deducted already...
Well, its a strange question since it doesn't suggest from whom the takeout is deducted, or helps answer the question WHO PAYS THE TAKEOUT?  One needs to read into what one thinks you're trying to say, though I believe I understand what lies behind your question.

Firstly, the toteboard is an estimate of the odds-to-a-dollar for each horse.  But there's a caveat: Sure, every horse has an odds-to-a-dollar but unless it dead heats, only one can win. Only one horse will have a mutual that pays the player (since we are betting to win.)  I don't have to go on with this here do I?  I don't like the feeling I'm talking down to you.

So, Since only one horse can win (unless it deadheats in which case there are 2 groups of winning ticket holders), the toteboard (or actually the ODDS on the toteboard)  imperfectly reflects "takeout being deducted already" from the TICKET HOLDER on the horse that WINS (since we're betting to win.) He is known as the WINNER.  I'm not sure what they call him on your world.  (Sorry, couldn't help that.)  This "takeout being deducted already" is more accurately reflected in the MUTUAL rather than in the toteboard.  Your question would have been better put if you'd asked, What's reflected in the MUTUAL?

OK?  Can we stop now, please?  'Cause I'm going to quit. At this point, I've described all this before, earlier in this thread and in the other. We all have weighed in so there's no need repeating ourselves.  Hopefully everyone got what they wanted or needed from the thread to their satisfaction.  

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 08:14:23 PM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 09:08:37 PM »

Being deducted already...
Well, its a strange question since it doesn't suggest from whom the takeout is deducted, or helps answer the question WHO PAYS THE TAKEOUT?  One needs to read into what one thinks you're trying to say, though I believe I understand what lies behind your question.

It wasn't a strange question -- unless one's internal thinking is so balled up that one has to try to answer multiple questions that weren't asked and aren't pertinent to the issue at hand.

It was pretty simple, actually. I wanted to know if the odds quoted on the tote board account for takeout being deducted. That's it. Not "who paid it?", or any other undisclosed and mysterious question.

I'll make it simpler. We'll use the "Horse Voice Text Tote Board", which I promise, will function just like a real tote board -- minus the numbers, labels, and lights (or perennially missing lights, if you only frequent Hawthorne, as do I)":

Win bets only. Takeout is 20%. The rest is hypothetical, but as real-life as I can possibly make it.

The wagering proposition is, "Will Horse Voice Get Edwarren To See That EVERYONE Pays Takeout, Not Just The Winners?

There are only two answers, and interestingly, they are remarkably short and to the point: #1 is the answer "No", #2 is the answer "Yes".

Edwarren bets $2 on #1. Horse Voice bets $2 on #2.

There are no other bets, and the bell rings -- betting is closed.

The tote board shows the following odds:

#1: 3/5

#2: 3/5

(remember, 20% takeout)

Now, the question is asked: "Will Horse Voice Get Edwarren To See That EVERYONE Pays Takeout, Not Just The Winners?

...and after several valiant tries by Horse Voice, Edwarren, underwritten by logic from another universe, stubbornly holds on to his beliefs...and the answer is a resounding "NO".

#1 is the winner, and pays off at 3/5 -- which is $3.20

Wha-wha-whatHuh Huh? Wait a minute!

20% of two dollars is only 40 cents. Ed bet $2.00, takeout at 20% should only be 40 cents -- shouldn't Ed be getting $3.60??

Ed got robbed on that payoff! Why, only the WINNERS pay takeout.

Since the losers don't pay takeout, Ed should be getting:

(Horse Voice's losing $2 bet) + (Ed's winning $2 bet - 20%, or 40 cents, for a net $1.60) = $3.60

But he only got $3.20: my $2, and $1.20 of his $2 back -- the track held 80 cents, that Ed, as the winner, paid. Could it be that takeout is really (yikes!) 40 PERCENT??

Ed, I think you need to fire up that "booking percentage" calculation again -- the track just might have been double-dipping all along!

Hell, it turns out that takeout is so pernicious that even in my hypothetical example, it outran its numerical constraints! Wow! It's like that flesh-eating bacteria!
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 09:10:03 PM »

OK?  Can we stop now, please?

Why, feeling cornered...again?
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Grinder
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 09:27:31 PM »

Hilarious. Grin
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Edwarren
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »

It wasn't a strange question -- unless one's internal thinking is so balled up that one has to try to answer multiple questions that weren't asked and aren't pertinent to the issue at hand.

Question is, before you entered the picture,  who pays takeout?  Don't care what you think you're reading

It was pretty simple, actually. I wanted to know if the odds quoted on the tote board account for takeout being deducted. That's it. Not "who paid it?", or any other undisclosed and mysterious question.


It's not relevant to the question who pays the takeout. Of course there is takeout.

I'll make it simpler. We'll use the "Horse Voice Text Tote Board", which I promise, will function just like a real tote board -- minus the numbers, labels, and lights (or perennially missing lights, if you only frequent Hawthorne, as do I)":

Win bets only. Takeout is 20%. The rest is hypothetical, but as real-life as I can possibly make it.

The wagering proposition is, "Will Horse Voice Get Edwarren To See That EVERYONE Pays Takeout, Not Just The Winners?

The winners PAY the losers share of the takeout. The losers have no money. They lost.

The rest is pretty much garbage.

There are only two answers, and interestingly, they are remarkably short and to the point: #1 is the answer "No", #2 is the answer "Yes".

Edwarren bets $2 on #1. Horse Voice bets $2 on #2.

There are no other bets, and the bell rings -- betting is closed.

The tote board shows the following odds:

#1: 3/5

#2: 3/5

(remember, 20% takeout)

Now, the question is asked: "Will Horse Voice Get Edwarren To See That EVERYONE Pays Takeout, Not Just The Winners?

...and after several valiant tries by Horse Voice, Edwarren, underwritten by logic from another universe, stubbornly holds on to his beliefs...and the answer is a resounding "NO".

#1 is the winner, and pays off at 3/5 -- which is $3.20

Wha-wha-whatHuh Huh? Wait a minute!

20% of two dollars is only 40 cents. Ed bet $2.00, takeout at 20% should only be 40 cents -- shouldn't Ed be getting $3.60??

Ed got robbed on that payoff! Why, only the WINNERS pay takeout.

Since the losers don't pay takeout, Ed should be getting:

(Horse Voice's losing $2 bet) + (Ed's winning $2 bet - 20%, or 40 cents, for a net $1.60) = $3.60

But he only got $3.20: my $2, and $1.20 of his $2 back -- the track held 80 cents, that Ed, as the winner, paid. Could it be that takeout is really (yikes!) 40 PERCENT??

Ed, I think you need to fire up that "booking percentage" calculation again -- the track just might have been double-dipping all along!

Hell, it turns out that takeout is so pernicious that even in my hypothetical example, it outran its numerical constraints! Wow! It's like that flesh-eating bacteria!


I never said the losers aren't CHARGED takeout.  Only the losers don't PAY the takeout.  The winners pay the losers takeout.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 11:00:44 PM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
Edwarren
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 10:49:43 PM »

What you're missing is whats said in the regs - separate and independant.

Here's the EDwarren TEXT BOARD TOTE.  same deal.

we bet $2.  If the track took takeout as we bet, we'd have only bet $1.60 against each other. (if the track took 40 cents from each).

But that's not what happens since every wise guy knows YU GET YOUR ORIGINAL WAGER BACK WHEN YOU'RE PAID THE MUTUAL, THE ORIGINAL WAGER BEING $2, not $1.60.

The mutual is the winners share of the gross pool minus the takeout distributed among the winners.
Never said losers aren't charged takeout - only that they don't pay it.  The winner pays it.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:58:22 PM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 11:40:41 PM »

The winners PAY the losers share of the takeout. The losers have no money. They lost.

No, the sequence (barring late arriving money) is:

Gate opens, bell rings, pool is closed, no winners or losers yet. Final takeout is calculated and deducted from the gross pool to determine the net pool, final odds for winners in the net pool are calculated (all odds and breakage on the NET pool, not the gross). Race ends, winners and losers are finally known, winners collect their share of the net pool. Takeout was paid by everyone who wagered. Winners never had claim to the entire gross pool.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 12:15:18 AM »

But that's not what happens since every wise guy knows YU GET YOUR ORIGINAL WAGER BACK WHEN YOU'RE PAID THE MUTUAL, THE ORIGINAL WAGER BEING $2, not $1.60.

OK, I agree with you here -- you DO get your original wager back, in this case $2.

But there is still a problem -- if it's just me and you in the pool, and we both took opposite sides and wagered $2 into a win pool with a 20% takeout...why do you only get $3.20?

Hey, they took 80 cents out of the $2 you won from me -- that's 40% takeout, not 20%!

How do you explain this, Ed? Remember, as the loser, I didn't pay any takeout -- you, the winner, pay the takeout.

That's your premise, anyway. I await enlightenment.

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Edwarren
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 05:05:55 AM »

OK, I agree with you here -- you DO get your original wager back, in this case $2.

Right. that's how we do it here.

But there is still a problem --

uh oh.  "Houston, we have a problem."  "Ed, we have a problem"  sounds eerily familiar.

if it's just me and you in the pool, and we both took opposite sides and wagered $2 into a win pool with a 20% takeout...why do you only get $3.20?

Because YOU didn't take your little blue outer space pill that operates you while in orbit.

Hey, they took 80 cents out of the $2 you won from me -- that's 40% takeout, not 20%!

Maybe, on Zebulon.
"Horse Voice, you're out of fuel.  You have not $ to pay the juice we charged you for when you thought you were a wiseguy betting Little Jimmys space camp $.  However don't worry we'll get the winner of the race to PAY it for you. That's 40 takeout cents we'll take from the winner, and he'll pay your share, 40 cents, for you. In fact we'll simply move in separately and independantly and just take it from him when we pay his mutual. (he won't know what hit him)  You and I, we have a good thing.  So he gets back   1) His $2  + 2)Your $2  MINUS  3)his takeout, we charge him 40 cents  MINUS  4)your takeout, we charge you 40 cents, but which he'll pay, YOUR 40 cents. So he bet $2, wins your $2 and gets his $2 back, pays his share of the takeout 40 cents, pays YOUR share of the takeout, 40 cents, and gets back $3.20.  There, he paid your share.  He paid all the juice.  All square.  All accounts have a zero balance. The winner squared the book. That is how it is done on Earth.

  
How do you explain this, Ed? Remember, as the loser, I didn't pay any takeout -- you, the winner, pay the takeout.

I just did.  Why are you asking me to repeat myself?  All you need to know is:  the bet is $2, not $1.60.

That's your premise, anyway.

Not what you wrote, it isn't.  

I await enlightenment.

uh oh.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 07:35:40 AM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 09:29:21 AM »

However don't worry we'll get the winner of the race to PAY it for you. That's 40 takeout cents we'll take from the winner, and he'll pay your share, 40 cents, for you.

Ah -- so you, the winner, paid 40 cents TWICE -- once for me, the loser, and once for you.

Ed, I gotta tell ya something here. I may not be a rocket scientist, and I very well may be from another planet -- why, I weep unexplainably and uncontrollably every time I see the ending to E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial.

But I digress. Where was I?

Right. Ed, I gotta tell ya something -- in your example above, no matter how you slice it, I paid no takeout, and you paid 80 cents: even if 40 cents was your share and 40 cents was my share -- you paid it! Just like if we were at a bar, and you paid for my beer -- the money comes out of your pocket. Right?

So...if you bet $2, and you paid 80 cents takeout...isn't that a 40 percent takeout rate?? Sure looks like it to me.

Your next comments would seem to confirm this:

So he bet $2, wins your $2 and gets his $2 back, pays his share of the takeout 40 cents, pays YOUR share of the takeout, 40 cents, and gets back $3.20.  There, he paid your share.  He paid all the juice.  All square.  All accounts have a zero balance. The winner squared the book. That is how it is done on Earth.

This 40 percent thing -- this is a SCANDAL. You might want to report this to the IRB right away!
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Edwarren
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 10:09:14 AM »

That is correct.  All you need to remember is:  (drum roll) What planet am I on? If on Earth, the bet is $2 not $1.60.  Look for a FLAG of some kind OR good looking Earth women of whom you've seen pictures of when the probe with the magazine under the seat landed.

Want to bet again?

OK. I won the first bet.  Round 2. same game, but you win.
This time, YOU pay the takeout.  Everything is square.  
Another? This time I win and I pay the takout. The book for this round is also square, but across the three games I've paid twice.

Let's say we bet 20 times and I win 15 times, you win 5 times.
I'll pay 3 times the takeout you paid.  The track and the losers have a good thing, because the WINNER always pays the juice.  I, the winner, am penalized because I am smarter.  When the takeout is HIGH, it becomes overwhelming.

When you HEAR people say or read when they write "everyone pays takeout", they are either ignorant and from the Planet Zebulon or other far away world  OR they are owners or members of a RACING ASSOCIATION clamouring for higher percentages at the expense of the gambler.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 10:39:27 AM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 10:12:31 AM »

So...if you bet $2, and you paid 80 cents takeout...isn't that a 40 percent takeout rate?? Sure looks like it to me.

Well, of course, Ed assumes he will have your lost $2 in his pocket before he has to pay the takeout, so it will be sort of like he's actually the one who bet your $2, not you. But of course, in point of fact, he will never ever have all $2 of your money in his pocket, because the track took the takeout from the gross pool comprised of your wagers and his before they ever let him collect any money to put in his pocket. He believes the entire gross pool belongs to the winners, while the rest of us don't share that belief.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 10:39:29 AM »

I, the winner, am penalized because I am smarter.

You don't think that the loser is penalized more than the winner from the loss of his entire wager?
 
Should there be a "lost winner takeout" surcharge on all losing bets? Boy, wouldn't THAT make horse racing popular!

"ALRIGHT, all you LOSERS, line up!

How much did you lose? $2?? Pay another 40 cents.

And you? You lost $100? Pay another $20."

Yep.
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Edwarren
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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2009, 10:43:13 AM »

You don't think that the loser is penalized more than the winner from the loss of his entire wager?
 
Should there be a "lost winner takeout" surcharge on all losing bets? Boy, wouldn't THAT make horse racing popular!

"ALRIGHT, all you LOSERS, line up!

How much did you lose? $2?? Pay another 40 cents.

And you? You lost $100? Pay another $20."

Yep.


Yep.
I've already explained this. Why on Earth, are you asking me to explain it again? 
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Edwarren
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 10:45:05 AM »

Here. Here it is again:

That is correct.  All you need to remember is:  the bet is $2 not $1.60.  Look for a FLAG of some kind OR good looking Earth women of whom you've seen pictures of when the probe with the magazine under the seat landed.

Want to bet again?

OK. I won the first bet.  Round 2. same game, but you win.
This time, YOU pay the takeout.  Everything is square. 
Another? This time I win and I pay the takout. The book for this round is also square, but across the three games I've paid twice.

Let's say we bet 20 times and I win 15 times, you win 5 times.
I'll pay 3 times the takeout you paid.  The track and the losers have a good thing, because the WINNER always pays the juice.  I, the winner, am penalized because I am smarter.  When the takeout is HIGH, it becomes overwhelming.

When you HEAR people say or read when they write "everyone pays takeout", they are either ignorant and from the Planet Zebulon or other far away world  OR they are owners or members of a RACING ASSOCIATION clamouring for higher percentages at the expense of the gambler.


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Horse Voice
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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 11:12:05 AM »

Here. Here it is again:

That is correct.  All you need to remember is:  the bet is $2 not $1.60.  Look for a FLAG of some kind OR good looking Earth women of whom you've seen pictures of when the probe with the magazine under the seat landed.

Want to bet again?

OK. I won the first bet.  Round 2. same game, but you win.
This time, YOU pay the takeout.  Everything is square. 
Another? This time I win and I pay the takout. The book for this round is also square, but across the three games I've paid twice.

Let's say we bet 20 times and I win 15 times, you win 5 times.
I'll pay 3 times the takeout you paid.  The track and the losers have a good thing, because the WINNER always pays the juice.  I, the winner, am penalized because I am smarter.  When the takeout is HIGH, it becomes overwhelming.

When you HEAR people say or read when they write "everyone pays takeout", they are either ignorant and from the Planet Zebulon or other far away world  OR they are owners or members of a RACING ASSOCIATION clamouring for higher percentages at the expense of the gambler.




(An aside to all of the other computer programmers out there: I did it -- he's looping!  Cheesy )
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Earl Sande
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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2009, 11:14:23 AM »

Seems to me that since the commission is taken off the top, everybody, winner or loser, is paying it.
If that wasn't the case then "net pool pricing" wouldn't make any sense.
On the other hand, here's something we can all agree on --- in Illinois, the winners pay the surcharge!
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2009, 11:29:44 AM »

I, the winner, am penalized because I am smarter.

No, you are not. You pay exactly the same takeout as losers.

Quote
When you HEAR people say or read when they write "everyone pays takeout", they are either ignorant and from the Planet Zebulon or other far away world  OR they are owners or members of a RACING ASSOCIATION clamouring for higher percentages at the expense of the gambler.

No, they are simply people who have a different opinion as to when the takeout comes out of the gross pool. You apparently think the eventual winners own the gross pool the moment the bell rings. I think the pool is not being run by bettors, so they do not own it. The track is running the pool, and takes its share out before anything else - before any bettor has even won anything.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2009, 11:39:32 AM »

I used to have 3 cats.

Once, a mouse got in the house, and when one of the cats found out about it, all three of them chased the mouse around the house, cornered it, slapped it around a little bit, much to their amusement. Then grew tired of it, or maybe they just found something else to do.

This has been amusing. I have something else to do. Thanks, Edmousen.
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Grinder
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2009, 11:45:09 AM »

Ed, i guess we can sum this up by agreeing that paying 20% is not good, but sure beats the alternative!  beer
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