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Author Topic: New Illinois Law Calls for 45,000 Video Gaming Machines.  (Read 3859 times)
honesthorseman
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 02:19:12 PM »

I think the main problem is the owner of arlington...harnes racing should try and get legislation passed to help harness racing and harness tracks and allow the t=breds to get their own stuff passed.......there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left so there is no reason why racing at the flats should be supported by the illinois department of agriculture or have legislation to support it


harness racing should divorce itself from t breds
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Earl Sande
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 02:45:18 PM »

Problem with this approach is harness racing is dying much faster than thoroughbred.
Lucky for harness they still have the 57/43 split.
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jrstark
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »

there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left

Why would you say that?  There are plenty of of Thoroughbred breeding operations.

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honesthorseman
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 06:49:21 PM »

Why would you say that?  There are plenty of of Thoroughbred breeding operations.



there are...there still are a couple but not many
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jrstark
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 08:05:25 PM »

there are...there still are a couple but not many

http://www.illinoisracingnews.com/farm.htm
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2009, 09:44:50 PM »

I think the main problem is the owner of arlington...harnes racing should try and get legislation passed to help harness racing and harness tracks and allow the t=breds to get their own stuff passed.......there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left

Gad! You mean all the horses I bred over the past few years are nothing but dreams?
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 05:58:12 AM »

how many tbreds were foaled in 2007,2008 and 2009?


not many!!!!
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 12:07:33 PM »

how many tbreds were foaled in 2007,2008 and 2009?

not many!!!!

The latest years the Jockey Club has online are 2006 and 2007. 911 and 812, respectively.

http://www.thejockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=4

I have my own idea on how the State of Illinois should distribute its Ag Department revenues - base it on public interest as measured by handle by breed.
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2009, 08:57:03 PM »

ClockerTerry,

Your stats include all t-bred foals.  In Illinois the responsibility of the Dept of Ag and the legislators is to promote the Illinois program.  The ICF t-breds are considerably less than the jockey club stats would make you think.  All the stud fees paid to stallions in other jurisdictions is all flowing to other states.

Don't know if you are interested or not, but I have a schedule that has been used when testifying before the House Gaming Committee and the IRB at various hearings.  It compares the relative agricultural impact in Illinois of harness horse operations to their thoroughbred counterparts.

It has not been updated for 2009 as those numbers have not been finalized at the Department of Agriculture, but it is current through last year.

Unfortunately it is in an excel file and I can't (or at least don't know how to) post it on BTW.  I can however attach it to an e-mail if you have an address.

A part of the information is included in the table below.  It should be noted that there are more t-breds foaled in Illinois than just the ICF registrations - just like your jockey club link will show.  The same is true for standardbreds.  Because the legislators should be most interested in how horse racing impacts Illinois though (since mares bred to stallions in other states don't generate any stud fee revenue in Illinois) those horses are not included in the study as their contribution to the state's economy is virtually nil.

ICF Registrations     
   Harness   T-Bred
1996   1,826   731
1997   1,774   636
1998   1,453   685
1999   1,222   565
2000   1,198   585
2001   1,349   629
2002   1,343   680
2003   1,348   636
2004   1,342   617
2005   1,367   588
2006   1,152   537
2007   977   495
2008   965   434
   Harness   T-Bred
Total   17,316   7,818
   Harness   T-Bred
Average   1,332   601

In terms of contribution to the Illinois agri business economy, the standardbred breeding industry has more operational farms creating more green space, breeds more mares, stands more stallions, raises more ICF horses,, raises more horses altogether, feeds more hay and grain, employs more people,  and provides racing at far more county fair venues than do the thoroughbreds.

Further, in terms of producing horses of national prominence the ICF standardbred program far outdistances our thoroughbred counterparts.  The ICF harness breeding program has produced numerous million dollar winners, national season champions, World Champions and Horses of the Year at a national level.

There is no doubt that more money is wagered on the flats altogether, but that is really a little like combining the interest in the Washington Nationals and the New York Yankees.  The Illinois thoroughbred program is almost completely dependent on "outside" sources for quality race horses, and I would be very interested to see a comparison of the handles generated by ICF thoroughbreds vs ICF harness horses.  I am not so sure you would be in favor of that split.

At the end of the day though, our real problems aren't between thoroughbred and harness horsemen or our respective programs.  Our industry has been decimated by a series of bad legislation, a failure of the legislature to comply with their own laws, the expansion of gambling opportunities from the lottery, to full card simulcasting, to the "riverboat" casinos which don't even leave the dock anymore...and now 45,000 VLTs that can operate pretty much anywhere except a race track.


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Terry Hunt
CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2009, 10:48:13 PM »

ClockerTerry,

Your stats include all t-bred foals.  In Illinois the responsibility of the Dept of Ag and the legislators is to promote the Illinois program.  The ICF t-breds are considerably less than the jockey club stats would make you think.  All the stud fees paid to stallions in other jurisdictions is all flowing to other states.

That's true, as rules for thoroughbreds are different from standardbreds. My question is, so what?

Quote
Don't know if you are interested or not, but I have a schedule that has been used when testifying before the House Gaming Committee and the IRB at various hearings.  It compares the relative agricultural impact in Illinois of harness horse operations to their thoroughbred counterparts.

With all due respect, I really don't. Anyone who has read my posts on the other side knows I don't believe in subsidizing products the public does not want to buy. That includes racing of any breed of horse. Thus, my comment to honesthorseman about basing AG subsidies based on actual handle. That's the purest measure of interest in any of our racing products, IMHO.

Quote
A part of the information is included in the table below.  It should be noted that there are more t-breds foaled in Illinois than just the ICF registrations - just like your jockey club link will show.  The same is true for standardbreds.  Because the legislators should be most interested in how horse racing impacts Illinois though (since mares bred to stallions in other states don't generate any stud fee revenue in Illinois) those horses are not included in the study as their contribution to the state's economy is virtually nil.

Your exclusions are false. Tbred mares bred in other states have to come back to Illinois to foal, and stay at Illinois farms for some length of time, to be considered "Illinois Bred". My own spend 9 months of the year at an Illinois farm except the brief trip to Kentucky to be bred, and I know many owners who do the same. That's 9 months a year of boarding at Illinois farms, as well as all the fees during foaling season. The breeding industry is not all about stud fees, it's mostly about boarding.

Quote
In terms of contribution to the Illinois agri business economy, the standardbred breeding industry has more operational farms creating more green space, breeds more mares, stands more stallions, raises more ICF horses,, raises more horses altogether, feeds more hay and grain, employs more people,  and provides racing at far more county fair venues than do the thoroughbreds.

And yet, nobody wants to bet on them. Why is that?

Quote
There is no doubt that more money is wagered on the flats altogether, but that is really a little like combining the interest in the Washington Nationals and the New York Yankees.  The Illinois thoroughbred program is almost completely dependent on "outside" sources for quality race horses, and I would be very interested to see a comparison of the handles generated by ICF thoroughbreds vs ICF harness horses.  I am not so sure you would be in favor of that split.

That really doesn't matter, though I'm curious, just what is it, since on the tbred side all Illinois breds, "bred", or "ICF", run in the same races? What special formula do you have for breaking it out? If there's a 12 horse maiden race, with 6 bred and 6 ICF, what proportion of the handle did each category generate? Somehow, I'm going to bet, the ones with the Kentucky sires' names on their pedigrees somehow attracted more of that handle.

Quote
At the end of the day though, our real problems aren't between thoroughbred and harness horsemen or our respective programs.  Our industry has been decimated by a series of bad legislation, a failure of the legislature to comply with their own laws, the expansion of gambling opportunities from the lottery, to full card simulcasting, to the "riverboat" casinos which don't even leave the dock anymore...and now 45,000 VLTs that can operate pretty much anywhere except a race track.

That, and attitudes like honesthorseman's, about "screw the other breed". That's the real problem we have in Illinois.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 06:13:05 AM »

The owner of arlington is the reason we can't get anything passed clock terry.    He also benefits from recapture.  They are the reason we are starving.   Arlington park is owned by Churchill Downs and they can weather the storm and hold out.  The harness industry has to divorce themselves from Arlington and seek legislation that helps harness and helps the promotion of standardbred breeding.   This state is a mess.    We need recapture to be repealed now and legislatation that will allow us to compete with the rest of north america
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2009, 05:59:55 PM »

The owner of arlington is the reason we can't get anything passed clock terry.    He also benefits from recapture.  They are the reason we are starving.   Arlington park is owned by Churchill Downs and they can weather the storm and hold out.  The harness industry has to divorce themselves from Arlington and seek legislation that helps harness and helps the promotion of standardbred breeding.   This state is a mess.    We need recapture to be repealed now and legislatation that will allow us to compete with the rest of north america

The owner of Arlington thinks the harness industry is the reason HE can't get anything passed.

Personally, I think the reason the harness industry in Illinois is having problems is the harness industry of Illinois. All you have to do is attract a lot more betting dollars on your races, and things will be fine. Same goes for the thoroughbred side. It's not someone else's fault all the time, or for lack of "help" from the legislature - WE are the horsemen and tracks putting on the show that people apparently do not want to buy with their betting dollars. That's our own problem, not anyone else's.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2009, 02:45:55 PM »

The owner of Arlington thinks the harness industry is the reason HE can't get anything passed.

Personally, I think the reason the harness industry in Illinois is having problems is the harness industry of Illinois. All you have to do is attract a lot more betting dollars on your races, and things will be fine. Same goes for the thoroughbred side. It's not someone else's fault all the time, or for lack of "help" from the legislature - WE are the horsemen and tracks putting on the show that people apparently do not want to buy with their betting dollars. That's our own problem, not anyone else's.

the tracks don't want buts in the seats...at least that is how it is at balmoral...they want as few as possible betting ontrack.....ILLINOIS HORSEMAN NEED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH REST OF NORTH AMERICA.....the only way to do that is either elimination of recapture or allow slots at the track....
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2009, 07:13:19 PM »

the tracks don't want buts in the seats...at least that is how it is at balmoral...they want as few as possible betting ontrack.....ILLINOIS HORSEMAN NEED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH REST OF NORTH AMERICA.....the only way to do that is either elimination of recapture or allow slots at the track....

If your own racetracks don't want people in the seats, who is to blame for the demise of harness racing in Illinois - lawmakers, Dick Duchossois, or the harness racing industry itself? I don't understand how you can blame that on anyone else.
 
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2009, 07:36:13 PM »

If your own racetracks don't want people in the seats, who is to blame for the demise of harness racing in Illinois - lawmakers, Dick Duchossois, or the harness racing industry itself? I don't understand how you can blame that on anyone else.
 

The track owners,lawmakers and both horse ibreeds are all equally responsible for the mess of horse racing in the state of ILLINOIS.All have failed to keep the industry in the forefront it should be.All have their own agendas and have failed to work together for what is best for all concerned.

Maybe someone can answer these questions as an example of what I am talking about.

Can someone who made a bet at ARLINGTON during the day and left still have to return to their track or OTB to cash the bet ? Can it be cashed at Maywood or Hawthorne or their OTB'S ?
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