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Author Topic: New Illinois Law Calls for 45,000 Video Gaming Machines.  (Read 3858 times)
bowserkat
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« on: July 14, 2009, 05:01:35 AM »

These were included in a 30 billion road, bridge and pork bill signed into law. I would assume that tracks would get some of the 45,000, or at least I hope so.  We shall see.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:00:02 AM »

they are getting zero
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Old and Slow
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 06:21:30 AM »

In fact, we're treated like a church or school - no machines within 1000 feet of a track or OTB.
I feel protected now... doh
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I know one thing for sure.  Indecision may or may not be my problem.
bowserkat
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 06:44:35 AM »

 
17      (h) Location restriction. A licensed establishment, 
18  licensed truck stop establishment, licensed fraternal 
19  establishment, or licensed veterans establishment that is 
20  located within 1,000 feet of a race track licensed under the 
21  Illinois Horse Racing Act of 1975, the home dock of a riverboat 
22  licensed under the Riverboat Gambling Act, a school, or a 
23  church is ineligible to operate a video gaming terminal.
 
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 07:56:44 AM »


17      (h) Location restriction. A licensed establishment, 
18  licensed truck stop establishment, licensed fraternal 
19  establishment, or licensed veterans establishment that is 
20  located within 1,000 feet of a race track licensed under the 
21  Illinois Horse Racing Act of 1975, the home dock of a riverboat 
22  licensed under the Riverboat Gambling Act, a school, or a 
23  church is ineligible to operate a video gaming terminal.
 


That poor little bar across from Hawthorne will die, because it is not allowed to compete.
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bowserkat
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 12:02:22 PM »

Amazing. 45,000 machines for bars, but the tracks can't get 500-1000 each.  In 5 years there will be one t-bred and 1 harness track left in Illinois, with maybe a 90-120 day meet.
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orioles
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 12:20:34 PM »

 thumbs down Video gaming in almost every two bit bar . Talk about preying on the poor. Cash your welfare checks and off to the bar we go
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 01:02:24 PM »

In 5 years there will be one t-bred and 1 harness track left in Illinois, with maybe a 90-120 day meet.

So be it. Nowhere is it written that racing is guaranteed to be a year 'round proposition. Those that think they are "entitled" to suck on racing's nearly-dry teat all year long -- because they are "in the business" -- are sadly mistaken.

Making racing scarcer might make it special again, like it used to be, instead of the daily smegma served up in Illinois now.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 01:56:56 PM »

thumbs down Video gaming in almost every two bit bar . Talk about preying on the poor. Cash your welfare checks and off to the bar we go
the outfit runs them
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »

this will kill illinois racing.....by the time the politicians realize they need to do something to allow the horsemen of illinois to compete with the rest of north america it will be too late...there are only so many gambling dollars to go around....
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bowserkat
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 02:05:39 PM »

So be it. Nowhere is it written that racing is guaranteed to be a year 'round proposition. Those that think they are "entitled" to suck on racing's nearly-dry teat all year long -- because they are "in the business" -- are sadly mistaken.

Making racing scarcer might make it special again, like it used to be, instead of the daily smegma served up in Illinois now.


Won't be special, will suck.   No one is saying racing or any other business is "entitled".   Would baseball fans want to see the season reduced to 45 games?  Would NFL fans be happy with only 8 games a year?  The massive expansion  of racing in slot states means that the short, low purse Illinois meets will be bad.  I guess I could still watch racing everyday from my computer. Or, on my phone while playing video poker at the bar down the street.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 02:37:40 PM »

So be it. Nowhere is it written that racing is guaranteed to be a year 'round proposition. Those that think they are "entitled" to suck on racing's nearly-dry teat all year long -- because they are "in the business" -- are sadly mistaken.

Making racing scarcer might make it special again, like it used to be, instead of the daily smegma served up in Illinois now.



Fact is, Eric's right. No where is it our right to have 12 months of racing 4-5 days a week. Were times better 10 years ago, of course but it's not like that now. If they have to shorten race meets to make better, then that's what they'll have to do. it's not like out here around the metroplex where there's 5 tracks racing for a minimum of 8k? Time spares no one, especially the criminals running the Chicago racing scene. not that they care, they're making their money.
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 02:41:29 PM »

this will kill illinois racing.....by the time the politicians realize they need to do something to allow the horsemen of illinois to compete with the rest of north america it will be too late...there are only so many gambling dollars to go around....

That's unlikely to happen. Most of the politicians do not care about horse racing, unless it's generating tax dollars (or bribes). It stopped generating tax dollars after the 1999 law. They care about the tax dollars slots generate, the tax dollars the lottery generates, and the tax dollars these poker machines will supposedly generate. They don't care about "allowing the horsemen of Illinois to compete" or jobs for immigrant grooms, hot walkers, and hay balers.

They passed the law of 1986 (?) for OTB, 1995 for simulcasting, 1999 for $40 million a year or more in tax relief as well as more OTB's (and supposedly 10th casino money and recapture), and now the law for ADW. Many of them think that's about enough for horse racing.
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Earl Sande
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 05:12:12 PM »

That's unlikely to happen. Most of the politicians do not care about horse racing, unless it's generating tax dollars (or bribes). It stopped generating tax dollars after the 1999 law. They care about the tax dollars slots generate, the tax dollars the lottery generates, and the tax dollars these poker machines will supposedly generate. They don't care about "allowing the horsemen of Illinois to compete" or jobs for immigrant grooms, hot walkers, and hay balers.

They passed the law of 1986 (?) for OTB, 1995 for simulcasting, 1999 for $40 million a year or more in tax relief as well as more OTB's (and supposedly 10th casino money and recapture), and now the law for ADW. Many of them think that's about enough for horse racing.

Terry, you are correct to point out that the state has done some things to help racing in the last couple decades. Of course they have fallen short compared to many other states.
It's a little questionable to use the words "think" and "Illinois legislator" in the same sentence, though!
Plus everyone should be reminded that there in the statute of the state of Illinois it says that the lawmakers are supposed to work to ensure the viability of the horse racing industry (yes, the same statute that says they are supposed to fund recapture).
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 05:39:14 PM »

Terry, you are correct to point out that the state has done some things to help racing in the last couple decades. Of course they have fallen short compared to many other states.
...
Plus everyone should be reminded that there in the statute of the state of Illinois it says that the lawmakers are supposed to work to ensure the viability of the horse racing industry

It does not say, however, that this state has to do every little thing some other state does. If the people and legislators of a state do not want slot machines at their racetracks, while other states gives their slots, it's not some God given right of horsemen and tracks in this state to get slots, too, and shove racetrack slots down the throat of a populace that doesn't want them. Gambling expansion and gambling revenue is a matter of public policy, to be decided by all the people of the state and their elected representatives. Some states think horse racing is more important than other states. It's not right or wrong, it just is.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 05:46:40 PM »

illinois has a dozen casinos on its borders....indiana,iowa and missouri all are stealing illinois gambling revenue....they are also taking all of our taxes on cigarettes and gas ......when the hell will he politicians in this state wake up and realize this
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2009, 05:51:17 PM »

illinois has a dozen casinos on its borders....indiana,iowa and missouri all are stealing illinois gambling revenue....they are also taking all of our taxes on cigarettes and gas ......when the hell will he politicians in this state wake up and realize this

Illinois also has 9 casinos of its own and a 10th in the wings, some of which are also near borders (Iowa, Missouri). How would adding slot machines "in town" at the tracks intercept the border traffic? If you want to recapture that traffic going over the border, you put new casinos and/or slots in places near the border. Only Balmoral makes sense from that standpoint, but Calumet City would make a lot more sense.

And, in the light of the subject of this thread, Illinois politicians just did attempt a major step at keeping the gambling revenue in state. Video gaming machines in every bar! No more need to travel to Gary.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 05:54:02 PM by clockerterry » Report to moderator   Logged
honesthorseman
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2009, 10:01:52 PM »

Illinois also has 9 casinos of its own and a 10th in the wings, some of which are also near borders (Iowa, Missouri). How would adding slot machines "in town" at the tracks intercept the border traffic? If you want to recapture that traffic going over the border, you put new casinos and/or slots in places near the border. Only Balmoral makes sense from that standpoint, but Calumet City would make a lot more sense.

And, in the light of the subject of this thread, Illinois politicians just did attempt a major step at keeping the gambling revenue in state. Video gaming machines in every bar! No more need to travel to Gary.

go to the boats in hammond,gary, east chicago and michigan city and look at the plates of all the cars in the lot....they are 85% illinois
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bowserkat
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2009, 10:47:29 PM »

Bars are limited under the new law to 3 machines.  That hardly makes them a gambling destination.  Although not limited to video poker, that is what most will have.  The lots of those out of state casinos will still be filled with cars from Illinois.  People now would drive right by an Illinois casino to go to Indiana.  The highest taxes in the nation on casinos means those machines are set tighter.
Most will leave the state to get a better shake for their gambling dollar.   (and while they are there, they can stock up on booze and smokes)
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jrstark
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 11:18:20 PM »

(and while they are there, they can stock up on booze and smokes)

Booze is usually cheaper in Illinois.
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Earl Sande
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 06:55:18 AM »

Booze is usually cheaper in Illinois.


Its price is going to go up, however, thanks to the crapital bill.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 07:01:04 AM »

go to the boats in hammond,gary, east chicago and michigan city and look at the plates of all the cars in the lot....they are 85% illinois

I don't deny that, but the question is how some slots at racetracks far from the borders is going to affect that.
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Mel from Moline
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 10:30:30 AM »

OK. VLT laws or not those machines have mostly been in place for years, they just haven' collected money from them because they were for "amusement" only.(Everyone knows these things paid out, just a matter of making them legal) Now as Terry mentioned, the attempts to "help" racing over the last 20+ years have all backfired. ESPECIALLY the 'horse racing act of 1994' which has put IL in the mess it is now. Full interstate wagering, and recapture, became the way of the world. It seems odd to me that something supposedly designed to help has been a death blow.....think about that? screwy
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 01:31:18 PM »

OK. VLT laws or not those machines have mostly been in place for years, they just haven' collected money from them because they were for "amusement" only.(Everyone knows these things paid out, just a matter of making them legal) Now as Terry mentioned, the attempts to "help" racing over the last 20+ years have all backfired. ESPECIALLY the 'horse racing act of 1994' which has put IL in the mess it is now. Full interstate wagering, and recapture, became the way of the world. It seems odd to me that something supposedly designed to help has been a death blow.....think about that? screwy

It seems every time the racing industry passes something new it backfires, because all the various groups in Illinois are so busy inserting language to protect themselves and *** over the other Illinois interests. There seems to be no attempt to work together as a complete Illinois industry to compete against other forms of gambling or even the racing industries of other states. It's all about how can these horsemen get an advantage over these track owners, or how can this track owner screw that one in the new law. That might have been the game back in the 70's and early 80's when Illinois racing/gambling was an island unaffected by what happens outside the borders, but all our track owners and horsemen seem to be unaware the real competition is from outside now. They're still working on putting each other out of business, or taking a new slice of the in state revenue, and meanwhile, the whole product is sinking into the quicksand. The legislators aren't blind, and see all the backbiting and infighting every time someone brings a new bill to Springfield. Why help an industry that seems to have no interest in helping itself?
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Edwarren
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 02:35:06 PM »

Plus everyone should be reminded that there in the statute of the state of Illinois it says that the lawmakers are supposed to work to ensure the viability of the horse racing industry (yes, the same statute that says they are supposed to fund recapture).

Thats how I see it Earl.  The operative word is "viable". Having a reasonable chance of succeeding, growing and developing.  Some might compare "viable" to downsizing, but I don't see it that way.

And the issue, of course, is expanded gambling and it's relation to horseracing in and outside Illinois.  Do Illinois horsemen support expanded gambling.  I think they do.  Do horsemen in Illinois support downsizing?  I don't think so.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 02:19:12 PM »

I think the main problem is the owner of arlington...harnes racing should try and get legislation passed to help harness racing and harness tracks and allow the t=breds to get their own stuff passed.......there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left so there is no reason why racing at the flats should be supported by the illinois department of agriculture or have legislation to support it


harness racing should divorce itself from t breds
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Earl Sande
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 02:45:18 PM »

Problem with this approach is harness racing is dying much faster than thoroughbred.
Lucky for harness they still have the 57/43 split.
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jrstark
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »

there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left

Why would you say that?  There are plenty of of Thoroughbred breeding operations.

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honesthorseman
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 06:49:21 PM »

Why would you say that?  There are plenty of of Thoroughbred breeding operations.



there are...there still are a couple but not many
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jrstark
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 08:05:25 PM »

there are...there still are a couple but not many

http://www.illinoisracingnews.com/farm.htm
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2009, 09:44:50 PM »

I think the main problem is the owner of arlington...harnes racing should try and get legislation passed to help harness racing and harness tracks and allow the t=breds to get their own stuff passed.......there are absolutely no t-bred breeding operations left

Gad! You mean all the horses I bred over the past few years are nothing but dreams?
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 05:58:12 AM »

how many tbreds were foaled in 2007,2008 and 2009?


not many!!!!
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 12:07:33 PM »

how many tbreds were foaled in 2007,2008 and 2009?

not many!!!!

The latest years the Jockey Club has online are 2006 and 2007. 911 and 812, respectively.

http://www.thejockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=4

I have my own idea on how the State of Illinois should distribute its Ag Department revenues - base it on public interest as measured by handle by breed.
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2009, 08:57:03 PM »

ClockerTerry,

Your stats include all t-bred foals.  In Illinois the responsibility of the Dept of Ag and the legislators is to promote the Illinois program.  The ICF t-breds are considerably less than the jockey club stats would make you think.  All the stud fees paid to stallions in other jurisdictions is all flowing to other states.

Don't know if you are interested or not, but I have a schedule that has been used when testifying before the House Gaming Committee and the IRB at various hearings.  It compares the relative agricultural impact in Illinois of harness horse operations to their thoroughbred counterparts.

It has not been updated for 2009 as those numbers have not been finalized at the Department of Agriculture, but it is current through last year.

Unfortunately it is in an excel file and I can't (or at least don't know how to) post it on BTW.  I can however attach it to an e-mail if you have an address.

A part of the information is included in the table below.  It should be noted that there are more t-breds foaled in Illinois than just the ICF registrations - just like your jockey club link will show.  The same is true for standardbreds.  Because the legislators should be most interested in how horse racing impacts Illinois though (since mares bred to stallions in other states don't generate any stud fee revenue in Illinois) those horses are not included in the study as their contribution to the state's economy is virtually nil.

ICF Registrations     
   Harness   T-Bred
1996   1,826   731
1997   1,774   636
1998   1,453   685
1999   1,222   565
2000   1,198   585
2001   1,349   629
2002   1,343   680
2003   1,348   636
2004   1,342   617
2005   1,367   588
2006   1,152   537
2007   977   495
2008   965   434
   Harness   T-Bred
Total   17,316   7,818
   Harness   T-Bred
Average   1,332   601

In terms of contribution to the Illinois agri business economy, the standardbred breeding industry has more operational farms creating more green space, breeds more mares, stands more stallions, raises more ICF horses,, raises more horses altogether, feeds more hay and grain, employs more people,  and provides racing at far more county fair venues than do the thoroughbreds.

Further, in terms of producing horses of national prominence the ICF standardbred program far outdistances our thoroughbred counterparts.  The ICF harness breeding program has produced numerous million dollar winners, national season champions, World Champions and Horses of the Year at a national level.

There is no doubt that more money is wagered on the flats altogether, but that is really a little like combining the interest in the Washington Nationals and the New York Yankees.  The Illinois thoroughbred program is almost completely dependent on "outside" sources for quality race horses, and I would be very interested to see a comparison of the handles generated by ICF thoroughbreds vs ICF harness horses.  I am not so sure you would be in favor of that split.

At the end of the day though, our real problems aren't between thoroughbred and harness horsemen or our respective programs.  Our industry has been decimated by a series of bad legislation, a failure of the legislature to comply with their own laws, the expansion of gambling opportunities from the lottery, to full card simulcasting, to the "riverboat" casinos which don't even leave the dock anymore...and now 45,000 VLTs that can operate pretty much anywhere except a race track.


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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2009, 10:48:13 PM »

ClockerTerry,

Your stats include all t-bred foals.  In Illinois the responsibility of the Dept of Ag and the legislators is to promote the Illinois program.  The ICF t-breds are considerably less than the jockey club stats would make you think.  All the stud fees paid to stallions in other jurisdictions is all flowing to other states.

That's true, as rules for thoroughbreds are different from standardbreds. My question is, so what?

Quote
Don't know if you are interested or not, but I have a schedule that has been used when testifying before the House Gaming Committee and the IRB at various hearings.  It compares the relative agricultural impact in Illinois of harness horse operations to their thoroughbred counterparts.

With all due respect, I really don't. Anyone who has read my posts on the other side knows I don't believe in subsidizing products the public does not want to buy. That includes racing of any breed of horse. Thus, my comment to honesthorseman about basing AG subsidies based on actual handle. That's the purest measure of interest in any of our racing products, IMHO.

Quote
A part of the information is included in the table below.  It should be noted that there are more t-breds foaled in Illinois than just the ICF registrations - just like your jockey club link will show.  The same is true for standardbreds.  Because the legislators should be most interested in how horse racing impacts Illinois though (since mares bred to stallions in other states don't generate any stud fee revenue in Illinois) those horses are not included in the study as their contribution to the state's economy is virtually nil.

Your exclusions are false. Tbred mares bred in other states have to come back to Illinois to foal, and stay at Illinois farms for some length of time, to be considered "Illinois Bred". My own spend 9 months of the year at an Illinois farm except the brief trip to Kentucky to be bred, and I know many owners who do the same. That's 9 months a year of boarding at Illinois farms, as well as all the fees during foaling season. The breeding industry is not all about stud fees, it's mostly about boarding.

Quote
In terms of contribution to the Illinois agri business economy, the standardbred breeding industry has more operational farms creating more green space, breeds more mares, stands more stallions, raises more ICF horses,, raises more horses altogether, feeds more hay and grain, employs more people,  and provides racing at far more county fair venues than do the thoroughbreds.

And yet, nobody wants to bet on them. Why is that?

Quote
There is no doubt that more money is wagered on the flats altogether, but that is really a little like combining the interest in the Washington Nationals and the New York Yankees.  The Illinois thoroughbred program is almost completely dependent on "outside" sources for quality race horses, and I would be very interested to see a comparison of the handles generated by ICF thoroughbreds vs ICF harness horses.  I am not so sure you would be in favor of that split.

That really doesn't matter, though I'm curious, just what is it, since on the tbred side all Illinois breds, "bred", or "ICF", run in the same races? What special formula do you have for breaking it out? If there's a 12 horse maiden race, with 6 bred and 6 ICF, what proportion of the handle did each category generate? Somehow, I'm going to bet, the ones with the Kentucky sires' names on their pedigrees somehow attracted more of that handle.

Quote
At the end of the day though, our real problems aren't between thoroughbred and harness horsemen or our respective programs.  Our industry has been decimated by a series of bad legislation, a failure of the legislature to comply with their own laws, the expansion of gambling opportunities from the lottery, to full card simulcasting, to the "riverboat" casinos which don't even leave the dock anymore...and now 45,000 VLTs that can operate pretty much anywhere except a race track.

That, and attitudes like honesthorseman's, about "screw the other breed". That's the real problem we have in Illinois.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 06:13:05 AM »

The owner of arlington is the reason we can't get anything passed clock terry.    He also benefits from recapture.  They are the reason we are starving.   Arlington park is owned by Churchill Downs and they can weather the storm and hold out.  The harness industry has to divorce themselves from Arlington and seek legislation that helps harness and helps the promotion of standardbred breeding.   This state is a mess.    We need recapture to be repealed now and legislatation that will allow us to compete with the rest of north america
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2009, 05:59:55 PM »

The owner of arlington is the reason we can't get anything passed clock terry.    He also benefits from recapture.  They are the reason we are starving.   Arlington park is owned by Churchill Downs and they can weather the storm and hold out.  The harness industry has to divorce themselves from Arlington and seek legislation that helps harness and helps the promotion of standardbred breeding.   This state is a mess.    We need recapture to be repealed now and legislatation that will allow us to compete with the rest of north america

The owner of Arlington thinks the harness industry is the reason HE can't get anything passed.

Personally, I think the reason the harness industry in Illinois is having problems is the harness industry of Illinois. All you have to do is attract a lot more betting dollars on your races, and things will be fine. Same goes for the thoroughbred side. It's not someone else's fault all the time, or for lack of "help" from the legislature - WE are the horsemen and tracks putting on the show that people apparently do not want to buy with their betting dollars. That's our own problem, not anyone else's.
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honesthorseman
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2009, 02:45:55 PM »

The owner of Arlington thinks the harness industry is the reason HE can't get anything passed.

Personally, I think the reason the harness industry in Illinois is having problems is the harness industry of Illinois. All you have to do is attract a lot more betting dollars on your races, and things will be fine. Same goes for the thoroughbred side. It's not someone else's fault all the time, or for lack of "help" from the legislature - WE are the horsemen and tracks putting on the show that people apparently do not want to buy with their betting dollars. That's our own problem, not anyone else's.

the tracks don't want buts in the seats...at least that is how it is at balmoral...they want as few as possible betting ontrack.....ILLINOIS HORSEMAN NEED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH REST OF NORTH AMERICA.....the only way to do that is either elimination of recapture or allow slots at the track....
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2009, 07:13:19 PM »

the tracks don't want buts in the seats...at least that is how it is at balmoral...they want as few as possible betting ontrack.....ILLINOIS HORSEMAN NEED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH REST OF NORTH AMERICA.....the only way to do that is either elimination of recapture or allow slots at the track....

If your own racetracks don't want people in the seats, who is to blame for the demise of harness racing in Illinois - lawmakers, Dick Duchossois, or the harness racing industry itself? I don't understand how you can blame that on anyone else.
 
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2009, 07:36:13 PM »

If your own racetracks don't want people in the seats, who is to blame for the demise of harness racing in Illinois - lawmakers, Dick Duchossois, or the harness racing industry itself? I don't understand how you can blame that on anyone else.
 

The track owners,lawmakers and both horse ibreeds are all equally responsible for the mess of horse racing in the state of ILLINOIS.All have failed to keep the industry in the forefront it should be.All have their own agendas and have failed to work together for what is best for all concerned.

Maybe someone can answer these questions as an example of what I am talking about.

Can someone who made a bet at ARLINGTON during the day and left still have to return to their track or OTB to cash the bet ? Can it be cashed at Maywood or Hawthorne or their OTB'S ?
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